Once in a Lifetime....for now

skyblue46 · 21-01-2020 10:06PM

Murph_D wrote: »

Hopefully it actually exists somewhere, probably in a D5 drawer. Anyway you don't have to be a Raheny runner to do the winter league.

It exists..I saw it in it's black, silver sulphide state. It was to be cleaned before I was to get it.

Can I admit to being fearful of feeling that race pain again? It has been nearly 8 months...

Laineyfrecks · 21-01-2020 11:00PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

It exists..I saw it in it's black, silver sulphide state. It was to be cleaned before I was to get it.

Can I admit to being fearful of feeling that race pain again? It has been nearly 8 months...

Nothing wrong with admitting it S, it's what you do with that fear now that matters, all you can do is try & i bet you will catch the racing bug all over again

Swashbuckler · 21-01-2020 11:09PM

skyblue46 wrote:

Can I admit to being fearful of feeling that race pain again? It has been nearly 8 months...

Make a deal with yourself in advance that it's more about getting back on the horse than getting her to gallop and jump fences. Plenty of time for full on race pain in the future. Just sign up to something short and run as hard as you like. Pull back if you like. Forget the watch, forget "target pace" and most importantly forget what Strava thinks.

Murph_D · 21-01-2020 11:09PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

It exists..I saw it in it's black, silver sulphide state. It was to be cleaned before I was to get it.

Can I admit to being fearful of feeling that race pain again? It has been nearly 8 months...

If I ever win a trophy (and I won’t), I’ll offer to clean it myself and return it in a better state than when I got it.

Still, a poor show that no one followed up.

Fear of racing is, or should be universal. Those who don’t fear are not racing!

Murph_D · 21-01-2020 11:16PM

Swashbuckler wrote: »

...and most importantly forget what Strava thinks.

Is this a thing now? Strava-induced stress? I’d imagine you should only worry about what you’re posting or logging anywhere if it’s bad training, or bad recuperating, which does not apply to S. There’s an awful lot of bad running on Strava, as we all know, and I would be embarrassed to be admitting to some of the stuff I see on there, but only the stuff that’s obviously behind poor race performance.

Swashbuckler · 21-01-2020 11:29PM

Murph_D wrote:

Is this a thing now? Strava-induced stress? Iâ€™d imagine you should only worry about what youâ€™re posting or logging anywhere if itâ€™s bad training, or bad recuperating, which does not apply to S. Thereâ€™s an awful lot of bad running on Strava, as we all know, and I would be embarrassed to be admitting to some of the stuff I see on there, but only the stuff thatâ€™s obviously behind poor race performance.

100%. I know some people who haven't put poor race performances on Strava. Not suggesting S is one of those but just incase.....

Murph_D · 21-01-2020 11:42PM

Swashbuckler wrote: »

100%. I know some people who haven't put poor race performances on Strava. Not suggesting S is one of those but just incase.....

Jaysus. But plenty of great training runs on there. My own ‘favourite’ is people hitting ‘pause’ instead of ‘lap’ so as not to spoil the average pace. But we all know how to read between the lines. I think.

Swashbuckler · 21-01-2020 11:50PM

Murph_D wrote:

Jaysus. But plenty of great training runs on there. My own â€˜favouriteâ€™ is people hitting â€˜pauseâ€™ instead of â€˜lapâ€™ so as not to spoil the average pace. But we all know how to read between the lines. I think.

My own favourite is a 26.2 mile pb in training four weeks ahead of a target marathon. The compliments and various mentions of being a "beast" were the best part.

Murph_D · 21-01-2020 11:55PM

Swashbuckler wrote: »

My own favourite is a 26.2 mile pb in training four weeks ahead of a target marathon. The compliments and various mentions of being a "beast" were the best part.

That sounds a bit extreme, although I’ve no doubt it happens. More common I think is the overcooked 16-20 miler at the wrong time. Saw one on my strava feed the other day, 16m at ‘MP’ 13 weeks out!

Obviously this has always gone on with runners. It’s just more notable, when people post everything they do, that some of it is... questionable.

ariana` · 22-01-2020 11:05AM

Swashbuckler wrote: »

My own favourite is a 26.2 mile pb in training four weeks ahead of a target marathon. The compliments and various mentions of being a "beast" were the best part.

What i wonder is are those people genuinely impressed by the run or is it just easier to back slap than to be the one to rain on the guys parade?

A friend of mine ran a 10k pb 2 nights ago on a training run, i haven't commented on it as i'm not sure what to say. All his runs are within 20-40s/m of his 10k pace. He has made phenomenal progress over the past year and had a super marathon debut last Oct so I don't feel entitled to comment when the results (so far) are undeniable and he has a (rather dubious) coach who's being paid to give him feedback.

I'd hope to get honest feed back if i was consistently over-cooking my runs though, i genuinely would appreciate it a lot more in the long-term than back slapping for the sake of it. Though some back slapping is nice too

Sorry for the hijack S. Get out there and race, you will love it, i know you will, you have the guts for it, just bring on the pain

skyblue46 · 22-01-2020 11:13AM

Ah now ye all know by now I don't consider any chat to be a hijack. It's all worthwhile commentary. :-)

Swashbuckler · 22-01-2020 11:56AM

ariana` wrote:

I'd hope to get honest feed back if i was consistently over-cooking my runs though, i genuinely would appreciate it a lot more in the long-term than back slapping for the sake of it. Though some back slapping is nice too

I'm the same.

I do agree that I think a lot of the commentary is because these people don't want to seem negative. I know this is definitely true in some cases coz I've seen the same people bitching behind people's backs about how someone is over training or it'll "catch up with him". I'd rather tell someone they're being an idiot than pat them on the back and bitch behind their back. Lol..

One thing I have learned though is that not all rules equally apply to everyone. Like yourself, I've seen people training in a way I would consider wrong and still make great progress. It's why I've kinda stepped back a bit from telling people they're going wrong. Because I can't honestly say I'm sure anymore of "what is wrong".
Boards is different though. I think we mostly have a sense of what may or may not work for people on here generally because we are following commentary and progress over a long period of time. Plus we're clearly open to criticism. Strava folk just want to be applauded. Lol

skyblue46 · 22-01-2020 02:24PM

ariana` wrote: »

He has made phenomenal progress over the past year and had a super marathon debut last Oct so I don't feel entitled to comment when the results (so far) are undeniable

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Like yourself, I've seen people training in a way I would consider wrong and still make great progress. It's why I've kinda stepped back a bit from telling people they're going wrong. Because I can't honestly say I'm sure anymore of "what is wrong".

I suppose the problem is in assuming that 'progress' measured by improved race times are actually indicators of good training. If you look at someone's training and think they are running too fast, too far, too soon etc then there's a good chance that they are. When people up their training volume substantially there will be gains made. These gains will possibly be greater in the short term than someone who takes a measured and incremental approach to their training. With it though comes an increased injury risk and the probability of hitting a plateau.

Singer · 22-01-2020 03:37PM

Murph_D wrote: »

Jaysus. But plenty of great training runs on there. My own ‘favourite’ is people hitting ‘pause’ instead of ‘lap’ so as not to spoil the average pace. But we all know how to read between the lines. I think.

Strava seems to automate that anyway with "moving time". Annoyingly the "moving time" in my club session last night looks like a pretty good PB, though the resting laps are actually in the workout.

Swashbuckler · 22-01-2020 04:28PM

skyblue46 wrote:

I suppose the problem is in assuming that 'progress' measured by improved race times are actually indicators of good training. If you look at someone's training and think they are running too fast, too far, too soon etc then there's a good chance that they are. When people up their training volume substantially there will be gains made. These gains will possibly be greater in the short term than someone who takes a measured and incremental approach to their training. With it though comes an increased injury risk and the probability of hitting a plateau.

Definitely agree with this. I saw an interesting article during the week that showed the gains in v02max over time when comparing an overtrainer with someone who had a more measured approach. There was a much faster ramp in a short period of time for the overtrainer but inevitably they pick up a niggle and the level drops while they recover. Over time the ramp/drop gets to a point that the measured approach has made such gains the gap is insurmountable. Steady and measured all the way. I've learned the hard way.

skyblue46 · 31-01-2020 11:28PM

22nd - 31st January

Wednesday 22nd : Another session to ease back into it. 5*3 mins @ 6:50 and 4*45 secs hard bursts. Again one from last years playbook written by L. As with the last one paces were a bit faster than last year and HR lower so I was very happy with that. 8.46 miles including wu and cd.

Av HR: N/A Z1: 21% Z2: 24% Z3: 27% Z4: 25% Z5: 3%

Thursday 23rd : 6.67 miles @ 9:00 min/mile. After yesterday’s ‘exertions’ I felt that some recovery pace miles were the order of the day. Nothing much of interest as I plodded my way around the locality. Word for word the same as last week.

Av HR: 127 Z1: 68% Z2: 32%

Friday 24th : 7.14 miles @ 8:25 min/mile. A cracking morning for a run in the Park. A nice trot around followed by 6*30 sec strides

Av HR: N/A Z1: 68% Z2: 30% Z3: 2%

Saturday 25th : 2nd of 3 consecutive days in the park. 2*10 mins @ 7:15 followed by a few short sharp bursts was the plan. I did the first in a touch under 7:10 and decided then to aim for 7:00 for the second one as I felt I was getting more help from the strong breeze. Effort levels felt spot on. Great to push really hard yet controlled on the fast bits after. Wu and cd brought it to 8.58 miles @ 8:02

Av HR: 144 Z1: 24% Z2: 21% Z3: 23% Z4: 20% Z5: 12%

Sunday 26th : 12 miles @ 8:23 min/mile. An easy pace run with a hard first minute at the beginning of miles 3-12. I really enjoyed this and got a lot of value out of a short Sunday run. It was a strange morning in the park with the smallest number of runners I have ever seen in it on a nice day. This was caused no doubt by the thousands who were heading to Raheny that afternoon.

I headed over to it myself for a look. I really enjoyed the day, got to say hello to as many as I could and decided I never want to race again after seeing what people put themselves through. The pained expressions with 600m to go (with a few notable exceptions) just made me think...WHY??

I may have had a few beers with E and C afterwards and may then have proceeded to my local to fill the tank...

Av HR:134 Z1: 28% Z2: 60% Z3: 11% Z4: 1%

Weekly miles: 50.4
YTD miles: 216

Monday 27th : Rest Day

Tuesday 28th : 7.3 miles @ 8:45 min/mile. I cannot for the life of me remember this one. I know it was local and nothing much must have happened...

Av HR:127 Z1: 65% Z2: 35%

Wednesday 29th : 3*3 mins off 75 secs, 4*90 secs off 60 secs, 4 hard 30 secs off 60 secs. Warm up and cooldown brought it to 9.21 miles. All went well.

Thursday 30th : 8.71 miles @ 8:54 min/mile. Bog standard run.

Av HR:127 Z1: 62% Z2: 38%

Friday 31st : 7.32 miles @ 8:52 min/ mile. More of the same.

Av HR:127 Z1: 62% Z2: 38%

Monthly miles: 250.4

My highest mileage month ever but most of it low intensity. Not a niggle in sight.

The Shoe Debate

Yes there was a reason I shortened the training run descriptions. It is simple. I wanted to address this issue and knew it would take some time. I also know that some of my comments might alienate people who I would consider friends be that here, WhatsApp or real life interaction.

Firstly let me make one thing clear...I am not a Nike fan. Secondly my opinions would not be different if another brand had come up with a shoe like the Vapourfly.

I am all for competition in sport but the competition must have at its core the competitor. I don't want athletics to be like Formula 1 in the 90's when only teams contracted to one manufacturer of tyre could win a race be that Goodyear or Michelin. Boxing for all its faults puts two men in a ring to fight. Not once will a vanquished fighter be able to say that the gloves another fighter wore gave him an advantage. This is the way sport should be...that the best person wins, not that their equipment dictates.

Todays clarification/ rules announcement made by Nike Brand Ambassador Seb Coe is a fudge. The statement may as well have been written by Nike. It affects only a small number of 'elites', a term used without any definition. The upshot? No Nike shoes have been banned for the vast majority of people. In real life application what does this mean? Anyone chasing a New York, London, Tokyo, Boston, Chicago, Berlin or even Dublin qualifying time will be able to wear the Alphaflys to achieve it. Then the following years Q times will be even lower and the only way to achieve them will be to wear shoes that are illegal for competition...

I have seen people refer to technological advances and cheekily ask if we should go back to cinder tracks. Obviously the answer to this is no. Nor should we build tracks with cinder for some and tartan for others. To the obvious reply that anyone can buy Vapourfly shoes my reply is simple...monopoly is not a good thing and in many circumstances is outlawed.

Today's decision did not address the issue. In the high and long jump competitions rules were brought in relating to shoes to prevent them being the deciding factor. The best man/woman on the day wins. It would have been easy to formulate rules that prevented one shoe from having a distinct advantage over others. It didn't happen. Instead we got a rule which allows every shoe already on the market to stay there even if they confer a significant advantage over others.

I love running. I love being out in the air, I love trying to be the best I can be for all my failings. This sport unites. There was a time, not long ago when we could look a man in the eye before a race, now we look at his shoes. Results or times shouldn't be dictated by footwear.

I could go on and on and on...but I won't. Nobody cares..its all about the PB.

Swashbuckler · 31-01-2020 11:40PM

Can I ask, did you have an issue with Nike before the 4%,Alpha or Vaporfly?

By the way I wouldn't worry about alienating people. We'll still share a pint or a chat when we meet regardless of whether you approve of my footwear. Lol

skyblue46 · 31-01-2020 11:50PM

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Can I ask, did you have an issue with Nike before the 4%,Alpha or Vaporfly?

By the way I wouldn't worry about alienating people. We'll still share a pint or a chat when we meet regardless of whether you approve of my footwear. Lol

Yes I did. They have an unhealthy hold over athletics. NOP, Salazar, Coe, Radcliffe, Cram....I could go on....

Your footwear won't bother me. I'll probably be wearing some new tech from ASICS, Brooks or Saucony :pac: But I wont wear them until I have matched a 2018 PB (last year was a ****show). I could never get pleasure from a PB achieved when I wasnt as fit as before but had faster shoes. It'd be like running a PB on a one way course with a tailwind...fast but ultimately meaningless

Lambay island · 01-02-2020 12:08AM

Well done on a super month.

OOnegative · 01-02-2020 08:36AM

He wore a pair of Nike’s running the Amsterdam Half lads, never mind his rant.......

eyrie · 01-02-2020 10:32AM

That's a hell of a month, great to see you properly back. Even if you're never racing again... :P
Looked out for you at Raheny and was sorry not to spot you!

skyblue46 · 01-02-2020 11:40AM

OOnegative wrote: »

He wore a pair of Nike’s running the Amsterdam Half lads, never mind his rant.......

Ah B I was in a dark place then, lost in blissful ignorance. Thankfully I have seen through the muddied waters and am now in an enlightened state.

AuldManKing · 01-02-2020 11:01PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

It'd be like running a PB on a one way course with a tailwind...fast but ultimately meaningless

I'm NOT a lover of Nike and it kills me to wear their shoes and hold any type of ethical/moral high ground.

But - to say a PB in them is meaningless, I dont agree with.

I set plenty of PB's in 'normal' everyday shoes when I started running.
Then I started to wear lighter shoes e.g. ST Racers 'back in the day' (advanced shoe for me)
Then I found light Skechers that worked - more PB's
Then I discovered this new light New Balance shoe - great - more PB's.
Then I discovered Racing flats with this new Adidas Foam - My 10k/5k PB still stands from these (not Nike).
Recently its the 4% and the next %. (didn't set a 10k/5k PB in the Nikes despite trying)
Next year might be the Hyperion Elite??

So over the years, I'm advancing the 'shoe tech' for me. And all the PB's count.

But regarding the Next% - lets take the 5m time from last week - I ran a PB - was it the shoe or my training? Not too sure.

But in my next 5m race, if I run better in the same shoes - its a PB and its an improved performance in the same shoe - so its a training effect.

skyblue46 · 02-02-2020 09:11PM

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm NOT a lover of Nike and it kills me to wear their shoes and hold any type of ethical/moral high ground.

But - to say a PB in them is meaningless, I dont agree with.

I set plenty of PB's in 'normal' everyday shoes when I started running.
Then I started to wear lighter shoes e.g. ST Racers 'back in the day' (advanced shoe for me)
Then I found light Skechers that worked - more PB's
Then I discovered this new light New Balance shoe - great - more PB's.
Then I discovered Racing flats with this new Adidas Foam - My 10k/5k PB still stands from these (not Nike).
Recently its the 4% and the next %. (didn't set a 10k/5k PB in the Nikes despite trying)
Next year might be the Hyperion Elite??

So over the years, I'm advancing the 'shoe tech' for me. And all the PB's count.

But regarding the Next% - lets take the 5m time from last week - I ran a PB - was it the shoe or my training? Not too sure.

But in my next 5m race, if I run better in the same shoes - its a PB and its an improved performance in the same shoe - so its a training effect.

Yeah A I get your point....but it isn't one that has any resonance for me yet. Perhaps someday it will but certainly not now. I have certain times I was hoping to some day get under...18:59 for 5k, 39:59 for 10k, 65 mins for 10 miles and 1:30 for a half. I've gotten damn close to a couple and nowhere near the others but they are targets that won't go away. However as someone who believes that the performance advantage in the Next% is very substantial I would get zero pleasure out of hitting those goal times wearing that shoe. What the new Alphafly will bring will be a bigger step again. For me, for now, my target is to reach some of those goals in similar shoes as I have always used. Maybe then I will recalibrate everything.

skyblue46 · 04-02-2020 07:16PM

Saturday 1st: A bit of a session. 3*10 mins @ 7:30ish off 2 mins, 8 mins @ 7:30, 2 mins hard. Very blustery which skewed effort levels at times. Comfortable throughout. 10.63 miles incl w/u and c/d. PP

Sunday 2nd: 14 miles @ 8:25. HR 133. Easy with 3 miles of progression near the end which lowered average pace and raised average HR. Phibsboro, Canal to M50, Ashtown, Navan Rd to Phibsboro, home via Old FInglas Rd.

Weekly 57.2
Month 24.6
YTD 275

Monday 3rd: Rest day

Tuesday 2nd: 8.2 miles @ 8:42. HR 124 Easy run. Ballymun, Northside SC, Artane Castle SC, Beaumont Hse, Flyover, DCU, Pappins.

skyblue46 · 09-02-2020 09:28PM

Wednesday 5th: Session day. It's now something that doesn't change, my days off work are run in the PP. Plan was 5*5 mins @ 7:05 and then 4*30 secs hard. An absolutely cracking day which was perfect for running. Paces were all there or thereabouts without ever being under strain. This slow build of fitness is suiting me so far. Warm up and cooldown brought it to 9.87 miles.

Thursday 6th: Back to the Park for a few easy miles. 8.51 miles @ 8:28. Again a glorious day. The run was grand but the high point was taking a stroll afterwards and going to watch the deer herd. They are so accepting of the presence of people it's unreal. I got to pet a couple of them which still brings out the inner child in me :pac:

Friday 7th: Back to the 3rd week of 5 where I'm working 5am-3pm. I was wrecked after it so settled on local recovery miles, 7.11 of them @ 9:10 min/miles.

Saturday 8th: Unplanned rest day. Still feeling shattered after work and with the wind, rain, rugby and fatigue the sensible thing was to shelf the session. I only have 2 weekends off over the next couple of months so I think I will move my weekend session followed by long run to my days off for a while...

Sunday 9th: Surprisingly after yesterday I felt good after work and decided to get yesterday's session done. The wind would be a problem but fook it, it's only wind. The plan was a long one for setting up on Garmin but L gave me lots of practice last year. W/u, 5*100m strides, 2*3 mins @ 6:45 off 75 secs, 3 mins jog, 5*90 secs @6:45 off 60 secs, 5*90 secs @ 6:25 off 60 secs, cooldown. Total was 9.61 miles. Very tough to gauge effort with the breeze which resulted in all reps being a bit too fast. It was tough but I needed something like that.

Week: 43.3
Month: 67.9
YTD: 318.2

Laineyfrecks · 09-02-2020 09:39PM

Nothing beats a run in the Phoenix park:D

skyblue46 · 09-02-2020 09:40PM

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Nothing beats a run in the Phoenix park:D

Pints in the Gravediggers does :pac::pac:

Laineyfrecks · 09-02-2020 09:54PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

Pints in the Gravediggers does :pac::pac:

No idea where that is! I'll take your word for it;)

Swashbuckler · 09-02-2020 10:26PM

Rolling along nicely S. Nice to see you coming into form again.

Once in a Lifetime....for now

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