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Alcohol and Work

2»

Comments

  • #52
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    .......Just say it to her straight "Look Mary, we are offering you 6 months full pay in your bank account at the week if you'd be willing to voluntarily give your resignation by the end of the week". If she refuses offer her 12 months and a glowing reference in exchange for her resignation....

    Is this even possible? I thought companies had to follow a procedure to fire an employee of they could end up with a claim for unfair dismissal.
    If the business was being reorganised and the job was redundant thats different, not sure about above


  • #53
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    I'd say the best and most straightforward option would be to call Mary into a meeting and say nothing about drink or performance or anything, just offer her 6 months full pay if she'd be willing to voluntarily give her resignation. If she refuses offer her 12 months and a glowing reference in exchange for her resignation.

    12 months salary won't affect the business - she does feck all nothing anyway, doe snot contribute to the business and if she is drunk and is a liability.
    And 12 months salary for a shop assistant is a hell of a lot cheaper than a legal battle with solicitors and a WRC payout.

    Option 1 is not going to happen as owners refuse to get involved.
    Still wont happen because she is too old to get a new job. Minimum wage retail is a complete dead end and there are loads younger more active youths with less baggage that are more attractive, be foolish for her to change, plus she wouldnt get a owner that would stand for that crap.

    There isnt that much money going around. 8% of stock is lost to theft and spoilage, its a mean business to be in.


  • #54
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Is this even possible? I thought companies had to follow a procedure to fire an employee of they could end up with a claim for unfair dismissal.

    This is a fault of the owners who never kept up with current HR practices. Its a old type of thinking, pennywise, pound foolish. The owners dont recognise the problem as they dont have to deal with it on the front line and it doesnt affect profits too much. One minimum wage worker can be replaced with another for the day. Its not really the owners problem.


  • #55
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,203 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    She is not permanent but has been there 10 years plus part time.

    She is permanent. Permanent and part time are different, and many people are both simultaneously.

    She may have been zero hours in the past, but that's illegal now so citing her hours to zero is no longer an option.

    The proper answer is to get advice from a contract HR specialist. (Like a lawyer, but better). But if the owners aren't supportive, your wife isn't going to win.


  • #56
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    OP you got reasonable advice throughout the thread on how to dismiss someone. My question is would your wife be exceeding her authority by doing a solo run on this, and if so why would she bother?

    Putting HR policies into place with a view on dismissing someone is the responsibility of the organization, not a shop manager in a chain of 15 shops. Why is she stressed over this if the owners aren't?

    If an unfair dismissal action arises from your wife going out on a limb on this and sacking the dipso then most owners will happily hold her entirely responsible for the hassle.

    Your wife would be better pocketing her wages and doing what she can within her own purview than worrying about the company being robbed, when the owners themselves couldn't care less. If that means things don't get done on the days the alco takes off then she can just inform the owners of that rather than trying to cover for the alco. There's a time and place for going above and beyond, but this isn't one of them. At most she might put her concerns in writing to cover herself.


  • #57
    Thecowboy1981
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 19 ✭Thecowboy1981


    Some people love to hear themselves speak.

    Just slip her a new Contract with a few hidden policies, give her a little sign on bonus.

    And boom, off ya go and do a random breath test some morning. See ya later


    Mod
    Pls do not follow this advice


  • #58
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    She is permanent. Permanent and part time are different, and many people are both simultaneously.

    She may have been zero hours in the past, but that's illegal now so citing her hours to zero is no longer an option.

    The proper answer is to get advice from a contract HR specialist. (Like a lawyer, but better). But if the owners aren't supportive, your wife isn't going to win.

    She has no permanent contract on paper, none of the staff have for years. I really wonder why she puts so much effort into a job that she gets so little from.


  • #59
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,203 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Is this even possible? I thought companies had to follow a procedure to fire an employee of they could end up with a claim for unfair dismissal.
    If the business was being reorganised and the job was redundant thats different, not sure about above

    Yes it's legal, because there is no firing involved, the person is voluntarily resigning. But there do need to be lawyers involved to get it right. And its it's unlikely that a small-shop manager has the authority to offer a deal like this.


  • #60
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,203 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    She has no permanent contract on paper, none of the staff have for years. I really wonder why she puts so much effort into a job that she gets so little from.

    Irrelevant whether it's on paper on not.


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  • #61
    Diceicle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭Diceicle


    Thecowboy1981 wrote: »
    Input new clause into all employee contracts, mandatory "drug and alcohol tests". Goodnight Vienna.

    Can't amend an existing contract.


  • #62
    Thecowboy1981
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 19 ✭Thecowboy1981


    Diceicle wrote: »
    Can't amend an existing contract.


    There is no contract in place actually. OP, now is the time to get out contracts with nice little drug and alcohol clauses in them.


  • #63
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Is this even possible? I thought companies had to follow a procedure to fire an employee of they could end up with a claim for unfair dismissal.
    If the business was being reorganised and the job was redundant thats different, not sure about above

    You wouldn't be firing her or letting her go. You are just offering to cut a deal aside from all contracts. If she would voluntarily hand in her resignation, the company gratefully accept and will offer her a lump of money in exchange.

    It might actually work. Many many alcoholics are very cash strapped and desperate as they drink their money. She might jump at the chance to take a big ball of cash that she can pay a few overdue bills and loans with. What she does with it isn't of any concern. perhaps she can piss the rest of it up the wall, or die of alcohol poisoning, who cares really.

    If she doesn't accept the deal, then what harm? You are just back to where you started and can look at a formal disciplinary process to dismiss her.


  • #64
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    You wouldn't be firing her or letting her go. You are just offering to cut a deal aside from all contracts. If she would voluntarily hand in her resignation, the company gratefully accept and will offer her a lump of money in exchange.

    It might actually work. Many many alcoholics are very cash strapped and desperate as they drink their money. She might jump at the chance to take a big ball of cash that she can pay a few overdue bills with and perhaps piss the rest of it up the wall.

    If she doesn't accept the deal, then what harm? You are just back to where you started and can look at a formal disciplinary process to dismiss her.

    She could take the money, leave and then bring an action for wrongful dismissal, alleging that the actions of the OP's wife constituted constructive dismissal.

    Even if she had a weak case it would be a big headache for the owners, and I doubt they'd thank the OP's wife for creating this problem off her own bat. Which begs the question why is she bothered if they aren't?

    The same goes for the genius suggestion of making her sign a new contract with hidden conditions and then ambushing her with substance testing to get grounds for immediate dismissal.


  • #65
    Get Real
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Get Real


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    She has no permanent contract on paper, none of the staff have for years.

    This is by no means legal advice, but my opinion would be just because she doesn't have a permanent contract, doesn't mean she's a temporary employee.

    I would assume that being there ten years, she is permanent and any legislation trumps a contract (or no contract). In fact having no written contract probably secures her even more.

    There's no written terms backing up the employer on what isn't acceptable.

    Furthermore, a temporary contract can only be renewed up until the 4th year, regardless of what the contract says, the law says that after 4, the person is a permanent employee.

    It's a bit like housing legislation in that, someone may have a contract stipulating 1 week kick out notice, but it's worthless as the law supercedes that and guarantees a minimum of 28 days.

    It's my opinion that the law sides with the employee here in that she is not temporary. There are various means, and proper procedures to be followed in removing her for her conduct. Record and right down everything in dealing with her and give many forms of notice.


  • #66
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    She could take the money, leave and then bring an action for wrongful dismissal, alleging that the actions of the OP's wife constituted constructive dismissal.

    How would that hold up though?
    The employer didn't make her conditions less favourable, or penalise her in any way in order to feel that she had no other option to resign.
    They simply proposed to her that they would pay her a year's salary if she was willing to voluntarily resign from her job.
    The proposal would give her 2 choices, a) accept the offer and be gone. b) carry on working there under the exact same circumstances with no change in pay, conditions or duties.

    What could consitute unfair dismissal there?
    It is not like she'd be loaded with extra work to feel stressed, (she does nothing anyway) nor is it the case that she'd be demoted or put to work in less favourable conditions.


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  • #67
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    Which begs the question why is she bothered if they aren't?

    Because she is hard working and has to deal with the drama of this individual. She has to go for two hours a day and manage a shop if and when she can get cover from another member of staff on their day off. It would be so easily to get rid of this soaked waster and get someone who actually wants to work and needs the money.


  • #68
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Get Real wrote: »
    This is by no means legal advice, but my opinion would be just because she doesn't have a permanent contract, doesn't mean she's a temporary employee.
    .

    I am not a lawyer, I have no legal training, I just know enough to either to know when I am getting into trouble and withdraw or to say nothing and call a solicitor. Hence I am on here.


  • #69
    Thecowboy1981
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 19 ✭Thecowboy1981


    Your wife seems a bit dry, she should offer your one a glass of wine and have a drink with her.


    Mod
    TC1981
    Pls do not post again on this thread


  • #70
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    How would that hold up though?
    The employer didn't make her conditions less favourable, or penalise her in any way in order to feel that she had no other option to resign.
    They simply proposed to her that they would pay her a year's salary if she was willing to voluntarily resign from her job.
    The proposal would give her 2 choices, a) accept the offer and be gone. b) carry on working there under the exact same circumstances with no change in pay, conditions or duties.

    What could consitute unfair dismissal there?
    It is not like she'd be loaded with extra work to feel stressed, (she does nothing anyway) nor is it the case that she'd be demoted or put to work in less favourable conditions.

    I agree, but there's a reason why these sort of agreements for an unwanted employee to leave voluntarily generally have involvement from HR, if not lawyers, and senior management. The OP couldn't do it by herself without risking big problems. Where would she even get the money for this from, petty cash?

    I think the problem is with her employer, happy to have her covering for a problem employee than to help her solve that problem, more than with the employee. She'd be better off asserting herself and her own rights as an employee than martyring herself for an apathetic employer and plotting soloruns that could jeopardise her own position.


  • #71
    Thecowboy1981
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 19 ✭Thecowboy1981


    A few right bores on here.


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  • #72
    ExoPolitic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    My advice is to continue as you are, keep a record of all the conversations and documentation sent between your wife and the owners. When employee slips up and causes an issue one day, your wife will be protected as she highlighted to the owners what was going on and they did not provide any assistance with providing outsourced legal help and it will be their problem.

    If the company did have a HR policy, then you'd just follow it and act out the motions and it would be the owners duty to back that up. But from what I see this doesn't exist. Where do I sign up for a job here?


  • #73
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    ExoPolitic wrote: »
    My advice is to continue as you are, keep a record of all the conversations and documentation sent between your wife and the owners. When employee slips up and causes an issue one day, your wife will be protected as she highlighted to the owners what was going on and they did not provide any assistance with providing outsourced legal help and it will be their problem.

    If the company did have a HR policy, then you'd just follow it and act out the motions and it would be the owners duty to back that up. But from what I see this doesn't exist. Where do I sign up for a job here?

    A bit late with the advice. The wife has seen the writing on the wall and is reading "what colour is my parachute 2020?" and "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". It looks like she is going back to education and will be retraining in September with VTOS.

    "See you MOFOs on the other side". (*wife jumps out of plane giving flipping everyone the bird and descends on opening her parachute*).

    You want a job working minimum wage where you will be robbed at gun point three times a year with no company support? Feel free to apply.


  • #74
    ExoPolitic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    A bit late with the advice. The wife has seen the writing on the wall and is reading "what colour is my parachute 2020?" and "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". It looks like she is going back to education and will be retraining in September with VTOS.

    "See you MOFOs on the other side". (*wife jumps out of plane giving flipping everyone the bird and descends on opening her parachute*).

    You want a job working minimum wage where you will be robbed at gun point three times a year with no company support? Feel free to apply.

    Good on her to be fair, I was just wondering where is this job I can get where I am unsackable? :D


  • #75
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    ExoPolitic wrote: »
    Good on her to be fair, I was just wondering where is this job I can get where I am unsackable? :D

    Its one of these new and up and coming crap holes in Dublin suburbs. The wages wouldnt pay you to get out of bed in the morning.


  • #76
    ExoPolitic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Its one of these new and up and coming crap holes in Dublin suburbs. The wages wouldnt pay you to get out of bed in the morning.

    Sounds about right nowadays :(


  • #77
    nuac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    Mod
    Closed for mods' review


This discussion has been closed.
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