Alcohol and Work

skooterblue2

The Missus is a shop manager.
She has an employee, who is useless and turns up drunk every few days.
She is not permanent but has been there 10 years plus part time.
She knows she is wrong but also knows she cannot be dismissed as easily as one would assume. My research on the law using HSA and other sources is not conclusive (I am a lay person, I am blindly feeling my way). Surely someone must have been sacked from work from somewhere at some time for being drunk.
There is no change of her going quietly.
She is doing my wifes head in. All help appreciated.

delta_bravo

I would imagine she will still be entitled to due process. The shop owners will need to engage with their hr/solicitor.

JustMe,K

I'm sure someone with more knowledge on he topic will come along, but IIRC alcohol and drug issues are dealt with as illnesses, and the employer is supposed to assist the employee with seeking help rather than move to dismissal proceedings.

skooterblue2

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The Missus is a shop manager.
She has an employee, who is useless and turns up drunk every few days.
She is not permanent but has been there 10 years plus part time.
She knows she is wrong but also knows she cannot be dismissed as easily as one would assume. My research on the law using HSA and other sources is not conclusive (I am a lay person, I am blindly feeling my way). Surely someone must have been sacked from work from somewhere at some time for being drunk.
There is no change of her going quietly.
She is doing my wifes head in. All help appreciated.

Every company I have ever worked for had a strict policy regarding consumption of alcohol before or during work. A few places had not a 3 but a 2 strike rule. As in do it once, we look the other way. Do it a second time and you are gone.

Many companies, its instant dismissal.

Have your wife consult with HR and the HR policies.

Why has she not started disciplinary procedures with her already?

skooterblue2

delta_bravo wrote: »

The shop owners will need to engage with their hr/solicitor.

Shop owners dont care. This is a managers problem. The shop is part of a chain.

skooterblue2

Deleted User wrote: »

Why has she not started disciplinary procedures with her already?

Its not an MNC with policies and solicitors on call. Owners are turning a blind eye. Owners turn a blind eye to theft by staff rather than engage a solicitor. The solicitor is viewed as the nuclear option. She has sent her home more times than you have had hot dinners, but not written warnings. My wife demands sick certs.

skooterblue2

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Shop owners dont care. This is a managers problem. The shop is part of a chain.

I'm sure the chain have a policy on it.

skooterblue2

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its not an MNC with policies and solicitors on call. Owners are turning a blind eye. Owners turn a blind eye to theft by staff rather than engage a solicitor. The solicitor is viewed as the nuclear option.

I never suggested getting solicitors involved. However, even a corner shop would have policies on things like theft or alcohol use. In any kind of customer facing role, being drunk onsite would be instant dismissal.

skooterblue2

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure the chain have a policy on it.

She is getting no support from the owners. If there was a policy on it, my missus would have sack the useless bints ass years ago. She is getting serious about it now, for some unknown reason.

skooterblue2

Deleted User wrote: »

I never suggested getting solicitors involved. However, even a corner shop would have policies on things like theft or alcohol use. In any kind of customer facing role, being drunk onsite would be instant dismissal.

This woman in question would engage a solicitor. Well this small chain doesn't. Do this in a big chain like Dunnes, Super Valu and Tesco and they have solicitors on call for this type of thing to advise and dispatch. This is a chain where some shops perform and some dont. Margins are thin. It sucks.

seamus

JustMe,K wrote: »

I'm sure someone with more knowledge on he topic will come along, but IIRC alcohol and drug issues are dealt with as illnesses, and the employer is supposed to assist the employee with seeking help rather than move to dismissal proceedings.

Especially given that the employer has tolerated this behaviour, presumably for a long time, without bringing it to the employee's attention, will not look good on them.

Suddenly deciding to take action on it now could be troublesome if it's not done right.

Bob Harris

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Shop owners dont care. This is a managers problem. The shop is part of a chain.

The owners will start caring if she's unfairly dismissed and they have a settlement on their hands.

Pauliedragon

Isn't someone breaching health and safety regulations by being under the influence at work? Eg potential for injury being increased due to impairment. I had an issue years ago (different country mind) where I knew a, guy was going for at pint at lunch. Didn't bother me just customers could smell it. Was told to get rid of him but my issue was it was well known that people were out till 3 or 4 or later in the morning and turning up to work at 8 or 9 nobody batted an eyelid. Those people would've had much more alcohol in them than 1 pint.

skooterblue2

Bob Harris wrote: »

The owners will start caring if she's unfairly dismissed and they have a settlement on their hands.

She is not being dismissed and that is the problem. Then the duty manager is either down necessary staff and/or has to call in extra staff. Tough on a small business.

skooterblue2

seamus wrote: »

Suddenly deciding to take action on it now could be troublesome if it's not done right.

This is why I am here, trying to find the right way to do it.
She has probably got another 15 years or so work years left, my wife doesnt have that much patience.
Please no more Shudda, Wudda, Cuddas. We are dealing with the situation as it presents itself now.

Samuel T. Cogley

Call a meeting and put the issues to the employee. Agree a course of action which should include getting treatment. Go from there. If the employee turns up drunk again, hold another meeting and see if a verbal warning is warranted. Employee is entitled to a witness. Employer should have a note taker.

skooterblue2

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Call a meeting and put the issues to the employee. Agree a course of action which should include getting treatment. Go from there. If the employee turns up drunk again, hold another meeting and see if a verbal warning is warranted. Employee is entitled to a witness. Employer should have a note taker.

Alcoholics are incredibly difficult to collar. Its everyone elses fault but theirs and it not really a problem and you are only a wet blanket/dry sh1te etc etc. This is why its really a job for the solicitors. I think an easier solution to the problem is for my wife to change job, she doesnt have the backing of the owners as they dont deal with her.

_Brian

Two places I worked had robust policies. Help and support was available for anyone looking for treatment for alcohol or drug issues.

However, it was an immediate disciplinary issue of any employee turned up for work under the influence. Employees suspected were asked to attend the company doctor and provide a sample, failure to supply a sample when asked was also a disciplinary issue.

skooterblue2

_Brian wrote: »

Two places I worked had robust policies. Help and support was available for anyone looking for treatment for alcohol or drug issues.

However, it was an immediate disciplinary issue of any employee turned up for work under the influence. Employees suspected were asked to attend the company doctor and provide a sample, failure to supply a sample when asked was also a disciplinary issue.

Clearly the family company was founded in a hurry and didnt keep up to date with moving HR policies. The real problem is not the alcoholism but the failure of the owners to support management. You know if you did this for any of the big chains is you would get sacked and black listed across the industry. this chain has never, dealt with problems head on because they claim they dont have the resources.

Samuel T. Cogley

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Alcoholics are incredibly difficult to collar. Its everyone elses fault but theirs and it not really a problem and you are only a wet blanket/dry sh1te etc etc. This is why its really a job for the solicitors. I think an easier solution to the problem is for my wife to change job, she doesnt have the backing of the owners as they dont deal with her.

As an ex retail manager not trying to be smart here but this is part of her job, albeit with support from HR / Legal.

skooterblue2

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

As an ex retail manager not trying to be smart here but this is part of her job, albeit with support from HR / Legal.

There isnt a HR department its a small mom and pop chain with less than 15 shops in the chain. I was on work experience with a large UK electronics consumer chain. The first day I was taken into a room to watch a video. "We dont care if you steal a pin or a 55 inch TV, we will find you and take you to court. Everyone will know about it and you will be sacked. You will never work in the industry or this town again".

That is the way the shop policy should have been from Day 1. Its one of these thing you do expensive on the first day so you dont have to pay for it on the second day. Its the owners fault but its my missus that has to put up with the stress and she doesnt get fat for being a minimum wage manager.

You cant fire anyone without the owners say so. Management ignore the problem.

mrslancaster

AFAIR under the Health & Safety at work regulations, its not only the company but also employees that have a duty to ensure a safe workplace. Employees should not do anything that could cause danger to themselves or anyone else in the workplace and if someone is intoxicated they could injure themselves, cause problems for other employees (OP's wife) or cause an accident. Even if its been happening for years, OP's wife has a right to a safe workplace.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Safety_and_Health_Management/Short_Guide_to_SHWWA_2005.pdf

skooterblue2

All my wife can do so far is send her home. Management ignore the problem from lofty heights and give her no power to deal with the problem.

BarryD2

You don't seem to be willing to take any advice on board OP. Maybe you wife is not on the same wavelength as you as regards the matter? You may sort it between yourselves methinks

skooterblue2

BarryD2 wrote: »

You don't seem to be willing to take any advice on board OP. Maybe you wife is not on the same wavelength as you as regards the matter? You may sort it between yourselves methinks

We have difficulty communicating with management as she has been with the company for 20 years. The difficulty is getting management to act on it.

nthclare

Most self respecting companies will be diplomatic when dealing with someone who has drink/drug problems or mental health issues.

There's a few companies who'll offer their staff a stint in rehab and pay for it if the staff member will go and partake in getting dried out.
That's only if the company actually cares for the staff member and cares for their own reputation.

Then you have custom and practice, where the staff member can prove they're coming in pissed, management know but they don't do anything about it.
You're on dangerous ground there, because if it's been going on for years and nothing done about it.
The law will favour the staff member and if they are sacked then the **** could hit the fan.

I can't give legal advice, my only suggestion is not to put the spotlight on the staff member.
They could be liable to take it very personal, and make life very difficult for the employers or proprietor.

Im sorry but since when was having 15 shops a "mom and pop" chain?

Theres a lot of mention of the owners not supporting management. Its management. Manage.

skooterblue2

Deleted User wrote: »

Im sorry but since when was having 15 shops a "mom and pop" chain?
.

Its a "mom and pop" chain because it was a family business, they arent cashing in big time as they are either in high rent sites or next to a lidl or aldi. Some sites are supporting others. I wish she had a different job.

KiKi III

It seems very unlikely that a chain with 15 shops (so presumably at least a couple of hundred staff) has no HR function. Who handles payroll, recruitment etc?

Your wife needs to follow a strategy that will protect the company from a lawsuit.

Next time she has to send her home she should give the woman a formal verbal warning that coming to work drunk is a firable offence. She should email the owners to let them know she has done this.

The following time she needs to give her a formal written warning (will probably need owners support to do this).

Third strike, she's out.

skooterblue2

KiKi III wrote: »

It seems very unlikely that a chain with 15 shops (so presumably at least a couple of hundred staff) has no HR function. Who handles payroll, recruitment etc?

Your wife needs to follow a strategy that will protect the company from a lawsuit.

Next time she has to send her home she should give the woman a formal verbal warning that coming to work drunk is a firable offence. She should email the owners to let them know she has done this.

The following time she needs to give her a formal written warning (will probably need owners support to do this).

Third strike, she's out.

Managers and assistant managers do the hiring. The bosses wife is the accountant and manages that end. They dont have 100's on the pay roll. its just a chain of convenience stores. They dont own stores that they pay high rents for. They have massive pilfering rates and kids opening bottles and leaving them. My wife is the only permanent employee, no pension or medical. Seems like lunacy running yourself into an early grave.

She put this challenge to me today to find a way to fire her. It seems you can only shame a person into leaving. I am going to convince her to apply to Lidl or Aldi next month.

pablo128

Check her contract. Is there a provision for random drug or alcohol tests? If there is, get a doctor in and request urine samples from 5 members of staff including your one. Take it from there.

Peregrinus

skooterblue2 wrote: »

. . . . She put this challenge to me today to find a way to fire her. It seems you can only shame a person into leaving.

Others in this thread have already told you the path to dismissal here. It seems you don't want to hear it.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I am going to convince her to apply to Lidl or Aldi next month.

Have you come into this thread seeking to get advice that your wife should quit? It may be your opinion that she should quit, but by your own account what your wife has actually asked you to do is to find a way to fire the employee concerned.

skooterblue2

Peregrinus wrote: »

Others in this thread have already told you the path to dismissal here. It seems you don't want to hear it.


Have you come into this thread seeking to get advice that your wife should quit? It may be your opinion that she should quit, but by your own account what your wife has actually asked you to do is to find a way to fire the employee concerned.

Its not about what I want to hear. I recognise there is a way, its just the owners are weak leaders and wont say "we wont stand for alcohol in the work place". Totally different. I showed it to Mrs Skooter last night. She said that is the way to go but she will never get the owner to call the lawyer (god forbid it would cost the phone call) and Shop assistant A will not co-operate.

Some times you cant win every war, sometimes its easier to withdraw and let it be some one elses problem for the next 20 years

skooterblue2

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its not about what I want to hear. I recognise there is a way, its just the owners are weak leaders and wont say "we wont stand for alcohol in the work place". Totally different. I showed it to Mrs Skooter last night. She said that is the way to go but she will never get the owner to call the lawyer (god forbid it would cost the phone call) and Shop assistant A will not co-operate.

Some times you cant win every war, sometimes its easier to withdraw and let it be some one elses problem for the next 20 years

Why do you keep going on about a lawyer?

As a previous poster said, verbal warning > written warning > if it happens again, you are fired. Document everything. If she hasn't already your wife should document and record the days she has to send the woman home for being drunk.

Diceicle

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Alcoholics are incredibly difficult to collar. Its everyone elses fault but theirs and it not really a problem and you are only a wet blanket/dry sh1te etc etc. This is why its really a job for the solicitors. I think an easier solution to the problem is for my wife to change job, she doesnt have the backing of the owners as they dont deal with her.

Just to feel out the scenario a bit....
Your wife has had to send this character home on a number of occassions. Presumably that was for a valid reason. Sending someone home indicates a performance issue. Why can't the fact that the individual is unfit for work be used to build a case towards dismissal?

Ronin247

If I was in that situation I would approach it from a different angle.

Step 1. Send the owners an email outlining the issues and the effect it is having on me.... stress etc. Ask the owners to deal with it.

Step 2. Couple of weeks off work with stress because they wont deal with it...

Step 3. Explain to the owners that if they won't deal with it then I can no longer work for them and will consider it "constructive dismissal" and will be seeking legal advice.


Why would the owners deal with something that is not interfering with there lives? Give them a choice.

neris

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Shop owners dont care. This is a managers problem. The shop is part of a chain.

In the end its not the managers problems its the company owners/directors problem. Your wife needs to have a paper trail and write to the owners stating the issues and events even for her own sake. If she ever wants to go after them for the likes of constructive dismissal or even if their is an incident with this staff member she needs to cover herself from blame .

Thecowboy1981

Input new clause into all employee contracts, mandatory "drug and alcohol tests". Goodnight Vienna.

s0252

Please be careful taking advice on this from boards. People have the best of intentions but may not be well educated on how to appropriately deal with what is a complex and difficult situation.

From the information you have provided I see 3 options for your wife.

1. Alcoholism is an illness. Deal with it the same way she would deal with any other illness that impacts the employees ability to carry out their duties in a safe manner.
For example, "Mary" turns up to work under the influence of alcohol. Your wife tells Mary, in a private setting, that she has observed Mary's behaviour and is concerned that is not fit for work. She informs Mary that she has a duty of care to Mary, other staff and customers. For health and safety reasons Mary must leave work and cannot return until her doctor has signed her off as fit to work. It's important that your wife doesn't accuse Mary of being drunk. If Mary makes a disclosure regarding her alcoholism your wife should assure her that it's deemed to be an illness and Mary will be treated no different than any other employee who is ill.
Repeat this each time Mary turns up to work drunk.

2. If Mary is turning up to work drunk I would imagine her performance while at work may be an issue. If your Mary doesn't make a disclosure, your wife has no evidence and, or Mary's doctor signs her off as fit to work then performance management is an option. If your wife isn't familiar with performance management I recommend as a starting point that she googles 'performance improvement plan' AKA 'PIP'.

3. The owners invite Mary to have a without prejudice conversation where they offer her the equivalent of 6 months pay to leave. While this may not seem like a palatable option I can guarantee you that options 1 & 2 will work out more expensive in terms of management time and will take far longer.

Regardless of what your wife decides to do I would encourage her to document every conversation and send notes from every meeting to Mary by registered post. This may sound extreme but if the company ends up in the WRC good note keeping may save them 10s of thousands.

Also, one last point, and I know this may be difficult if there's history between your wife and this lady, but, tell her to try to be kind. It costs nothing and this situation is much more difficult for the lady with the drink problem than anyone else involved.

skooterblue2

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do you keep going on about a lawyer?

I wouldnt venture forward on path like this without consulting a lawyer. Guaranteed as soon as this woman grabs reality as soon as she gets her P45, she will be down at the solicitors office. You would be foolish to venture forward without a solicitor when you know you are going to be faced with a solicitor on the way back. A good offence is a good defence.

skooterblue2

Diceicle wrote: »

Just to feel out the scenario a bit....
Your wife has had to send this character home on a number of occassions. Presumably that was for a valid reason. Sending someone home indicates a performance issue. Why can't the fact that the individual is unfit for work be used to build a case towards dismissal?

That sounds like the best approach. You are right there is a long history, possibly weekly but guaranteed fortnightly. She in never "drunk", she has flu's, stomach bugs, illness in the family, berivances, car trouble and everything else. The only excuse she hasnt used is the sow is having piglets.

There is a squeeze coming up. This might affect it.

Jim Root

is your one still paid when she gets sent home?

TheBoyConor

Could your wife explain to the owners that she is a H&S hazard to be on the premises while drunk and that for every day you have a suspiciion that she is drunk she will be instructed to sit in the canteen until her shift is over.

Owners might think twice about it when they are paying one of their staff to sit and twiddle their thumbs every other day.

pablo128

Does she drive to work while drunk?

skooterblue2

Ronin247 wrote: »

If I was in that situation I would approach it from a different angle.

Step 1. Send the owners an email outlining the issues and the effect it is having on me.... stress etc. Ask the owners to deal with it.

Step 2. Couple of weeks off work with stress because they wont deal with it...

Step 3. Explain to the owners that if they won't deal with it then I can no longer work for them and will consider it "constructive dismissal" and will be seeking legal advice.


Why would the owners deal with something that is not interfering with there lives? Give them a choice.

The owners are "aware" of it but if you cant smell the sh1te why would you go digging in the dung hill.

We would love to do that but finances dont allow it.

I view it as an abusive relationship but my wife has a great sense of loyalty to the shop, customers and owners. Dont ask me why, if I was working there, I would ask you not to call me after 5pm or on my day off unless you were bleeding out and wouldnt be in tomorrow.

She is not related but she has some olde timey connection with them. I would nt say she want to have a public grievance with them.

skooterblue2

pablo128 wrote: »

Does she drive to work while drunk?

Doubtful she either walks or gets a lift to work.

skooterblue2

Jim Root wrote: »

is your one still paid when she gets sent home?

No, she goes home without pay but her OH is well paid and enables her. Still my wife has to muster another member of staff

Thecowboy1981

pablo128 wrote: »

Does she drive to work while drunk?[/quote/]

Mod
Irrelevant post deleted

skooterblue2

s0252 wrote: »

Please be careful taking advice on this from boards. People have the best of intentions but may not be well educated on how to appropriately deal with what is a complex and difficult situation.

From the information you have provided I see 3 options for your wife.

1. Alcoholism is an illness. Deal with it the same way she would deal with any other illness that impacts the employees ability to carry out their duties in a safe manner.
For example, "Mary" turns up to work under the influence of alcohol. Your wife tells Mary, in a private setting, that she has observed Mary's behaviour and is concerned that is not fit for work. She informs Mary that she has a duty of care to Mary, other staff and customers. For health and safety reasons Mary must leave work and cannot return until her doctor has signed her off as fit to work. It's important that your wife doesn't accuse Mary of being drunk. If Mary makes a disclosure regarding her alcoholism your wife should assure her that it's deemed to be an illness and Mary will be treated no different than any other employee who is ill.
Repeat this each time Mary turns up to work drunk.

2. If Mary is turning up to work drunk I would imagine her performance while at work may be an issue. If your Mary doesn't make a disclosure, your wife has no evidence and, or Mary's doctor signs her off as fit to work then performance management is an option. If your wife isn't familiar with performance management I recommend as a starting point that she googles 'performance improvement plan' AKA 'PIP'.

3. The owners invite Mary to have a without prejudice conversation where they offer her the equivalent of 6 months pay to leave. While this may not seem like a palatable option I can guarantee you that options 1 & 2 will work out more expensive in terms of management time and will take far longer.

Regardless of what your wife decides to do I would encourage her to document every conversation and send notes from every meeting to Mary by registered post. This may sound extreme but if the company ends up in the WRC good note keeping may save them 10s of thousands.

Also, one last point, and I know this may be difficult if there's history between your wife and this lady, but, tell her to try to be kind. It costs nothing and this situation is much more difficult for the lady with the drink problem than anyone else involved.

Mrs Skooter is watching from afar and if she can get the owners to shift she will get them to move she will. She is an amazing manager but she has her limits. Something somewhere has to give.

I dont care about alcoholism or drug addiction. I am a married man and all I care about is my wife, me and my lot in that order. Sounds mean but that is real life.

TheBoyConor

I'd say the best and most straightforward option would be to call Mary into a meeting and say nothing about drink or performance or anything like that. Just say it to her straight "Look Mary, we are offering you 6 months full pay in your bank account at the week if you'd be willing to voluntarily give your resignation by the end of the week". If she refuses offer her 12 months and a glowing reference in exchange for her resignation. For all the good it'll do, the whole town probably knows shes a borderline wino anyway.

12 months salary won't affect the business - she does feck all nothing anyway, doe snot contribute to the business and if she is drunk and is a liability.
And 12 months salary for a shop assistant is a hell of a lot cheaper than a legal battle with solicitors and a WRC payout.

Mod
A "glowing reference"? Here?

Thecowboy1981

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd say the best and most straightforward option would be to call Mary into a meeting and say nothing about drink or performance or anything, just offer her 6 months full pay if she'd be willing to voluntarily give her resignation. If she refuses offer her 12 months and a glowing reference in exchange for her resignation.

12 months salary won't affect the business - she does feck all nothing anyway, doe snot contribute to the business and if she is drunk and is a liability.
And 12 months salary for a shop assistant is a hell of a lot cheaper than a legal battle with solicitors and a WRC payout.

What about the old alcohol and drug tests - slip em into the conrtract quietly.

She comes in steamjng some mormingg, you pull out the bag and it's so long, farewell.

A lot of tripe on here. You don't want a big long winded solution.