The Uncapped Back Row “Stocktake” - 2020 & Beyond

ionadnapokot · 20-01-2020 2:39am #1

I cant recall Irish rugby having such an amount of promising loose forwards breaking through at the same time.

Is it fair to say that the best of them are all at Leinster?
Cant see any really exceptional (SO'B/Ferris) talent amongst them. Maybe Connors? Dorris looks to have the height, strength, skills and engine to make an excellent 8

I've had a stab at trying to project their careers for the craic. (completely guessing with the Ulster young lads)
All comments & corrections are welcome!
And particularly If im leaving anybody out.

PLAYER|AGE|2020 Caps|2021 Lions|2023 WC*|+25 Caps|+50 Caps
Will Connors|23|1|0|4|Yes|Yes
Max Deegan|23|2|0|0|Yes|No
Caelan Doris|21|8|1|5|Yes|Yes
Scott Penny|20|0|0|0|Yes|No
Paul Boyle|23|0|0|0|No|No
Gavin Coombes|22|0|0|0|No|No
John Hodnett|21|0|0|0|No|No
Fineen Wycherley|22|0|0|3|Yes|No
Azur Allison|20|0|0|0|No|No
David McCann|19|0|0|0|Yes|No
Marcus Rea|22|0|0|0|No|No

* WC 2023 Squad
Will Connors
Jack Conan
Caelan Doris
JvdF
Fineen Wycherly

2019 WC Squad: Conan 27/17 caps, CJ 29/38, JvdF 26/23, PO'M 30/64, Ruddock 29/26,

Dog Botherer · 20-01-2020 3:43am

Jack O’Sullivan (21) from Munster is also very highly rated.

ionadnapokot · 20-01-2020 4:04am

Think I jumped the gun on Wycherley.
POM and CJ both have plenty of life in the yet. CJ might even make next WC.

Wycherley probably only going to get meaningful game time if they get injured.

Scottmactom · 20-01-2020 4:23am

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Jack O’Sullivan (21) from Munster is also very highly rated.

Small.

Dubinusa · 20-01-2020 5:31am

No real 6 there! So, let's add Rea? and Maloney currently in Leinster academy.
Off the lads listed, I think they all have a shot. But injury will play a part.
The likes of JOD and Conan will still be in the mix next rwc!

salmocab · 20-01-2020 8:07am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

* WC 2023 Squad
Will Connors
Jack Conan
Caelan Doris
JvdF
Fineen Wycherly

2019 WC Squad: Conan 27/17 caps, CJ 29/38, JvdF 26/23, PO'M 30/64, Ruddock 29/26,

Big IF but if Leavy is back playing as he was after his return then he will certainly be a main stay of the Irish back row in 2023

Bazzo · 20-01-2020 9:30am

Sean O'Brien II is still uncapped. If, and it's a fairly big if unfortunately, he can ever get an injury free run I'd fancy him to get a shot.

prawnsambo · 20-01-2020 9:52am

Well there was the born around 1992-94 cohort of Jack Conan, Dan Leavy, Josh van der Flier, Conor Gilsenan, Eoghan Masterson, Sean O'Brien (jr), Tadhg Beirne and Jack O'Donohue. Some of these may also play at lock, but all have played in the back row for protracted periods.

Paul Smeenus · 20-01-2020 10:23am

If you'd told anyone in 2010/2011 that Chris Henry would come into the squad for the 2014 Six Nations, just before turning thirty, play excellently and be part of a squad that would win that Championship, they'd have laughed in your face. Things just aren't as linear as that.

We are all genuinely excited by these young fellas, not just for their considerable talent, but for the breath of fresh air they should bring to the team. But I think the Lions caps projections are a wee bit excitable - they're simply not as good as the similarly aged Underhill and Curry, who were in England's RWC team.

salmocab · 20-01-2020 10:33am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If you'd told anyone in 2010/2011 that Chris Henry would come into the squad for the 2014 Six Nations, just before turning thirty, play excellently and be part of a squad that would win that Championship, they'd have laughed in your face. Things just aren't as linear as that.

We are all genuinely excited by these young fellas, not just for their considerable talent, but for the breath of fresh air they should bring to the team. But I think the Lions caps projections are a wee bit excitable - they're simply not as good as the similarly aged Underhill and Curry, who were in England's RWC team.

You only need look at the long term team predictions that are regularly done for future WCs they are generally way off with players still there that were written off and lads we’ve not even heard of coming good. Everyone enjoys the shiny new toy.

lawrencesummers · 20-01-2020 10:50am

Starts a poll about Irish back row prospects, yet can’t name a back row player outside of Leinster. Ha ha ha ha ha

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 11:01am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I cant recall Irish rugby having such an amount of promising loose forwards breaking through at the same time.

Is it fair to say that the best of them are all at Leinster?
Cant see any really exceptional (SO'B/Ferris) talent amongst them. Maybe Connors? Dorris looks to have the height, strength, skills and engine to make an excellent 8

I've had a stab at trying to project their careers for the craic. (completely guessing with the Ulster young lads)
All comments & corrections are welcome!
And particularly If im leaving anybody out.

PLAYER|AGE|2020 Caps|2021 Lions|2023 WC*|+25 Caps|+50 Caps
Will Connors|23|1|0|4|Yes|Yes
Max Deegan|23|2|0|0|Yes|No
Caelan Doris|21|8|1|5|Yes|Yes
Scott Penny|20|0|0|0|Yes|No
Paul Boyle|23|0|0|0|No|No
Gavin Coombes|22|0|0|0|No|No
John Hodnett|21|0|0|0|No|No
Fineen Wycherley|22|0|0|3|Yes|No
Azur Allison|20|0|0|0|No|No
David McCann|19|0|0|0|Yes|No
Marcus Rea|22|0|0|0|No|No

* WC 2023 Squad
Will Connors
Jack Conan
Caelan Doris
JvdF
Fineen Wycherly

2019 WC Squad: Conan 27/17 caps, CJ 29/38, JvdF 26/23, PO'M 30/64, Ruddock 29/26,

I can only assume this is a wind up and not a very good one at that. To say Connors will not only get capped but +50 caps is a pipedream. The lad has made 48 tackles against 2 very poor Pro14 opponents and you are saying he will be the IRish 7 for the next world cup?

Bias aside what has you so confident he will surpass VDF and Leavy. Which brings me to the fact you don't even have Leavy listed - are you just forgetful or mad? Leavy has won Grand Slams in Twickenham ,scored tries against Sarries in European Quarter Finals and won European Cups but you don't list him?

That's not even mentioning the players who are rated as better by Farrell such as Jack O'Donoghue who was selected in this 6 Nations squad as a fully senior player. And you're saying Connors (with all of his 48 tackles - he does nothing else around the pitch and has a very limited game) is better than Scott Penny who had 10 tries for Leinster A in his first season across 8 games and has something like 4 tries this season for the Leinster firsts totally underrated and attempted to be undermined by people like you looking for a wind up.

To my mind Penny is the better all round 7 than Connors and is a better link man with good hands. He suits the Leinster style of 7 better than a Charlatan who looks to get his tackle stats up for the keyboard warriors on Boards and Leinsterfans to tout.

Very poor attmept to tout a overrated and underwhleming player Connors. Pathetic.

Clegg · 20-01-2020 11:16am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Starts a poll about Irish back row prospects, yet can’t name a back row player outside of Leinster. Ha ha ha ha ha

All the best ones are from Leinster tbf.

salmocab · 20-01-2020 11:22am

Granny15 wrote: »

I can only assume this is a wind up and not a very good one at that. To say Connors will not only get capped but +50 caps is a pipedream. The lad has made 48 tackles against 2 very poor Pro14 opponents and you are saying he will be the IRish 7 for the next world cup?

Bias aside what has you so confident he will surpass VDF and Leavy. Which brings me to the fact you don't even have Leavy listed - are you just forgetful or mad? Leavy has won Grand Slams in Twickenham ,scored tries against Sarries in European Quarter Finals and won European Cups but you don't list him?

That's not even mentioning the players who are rated as better by Farrell such as Jack O'Donoghue who was selected in this 6 Nations squad as a fully senior player. And you're saying Connors (with all of his 48 tackles - he does nothing else around the pitch and has a very limited game) is better than Scott Penny who had 10 tries for Leinster A in his first season across 8 games and has something like 4 tries this season for the Leinster firsts totally underrated and attempted to be undermined by people like you looking for a wind up.

To my mind Penny is the better all round 7 than Connors and is a better link man with good hands. He suits the Leinster style of 7 better than a Charlatan who looks to get his tackle stats up for the keyboard warriors on Boards and Leinsterfans to tout.

Very poor attmept to tout a overrated and underwhleming player Connors. Pathetic.

Will you be on every time someone praises Connors? We get it you don’t like him for reasons of your own but this is becoming very tedious.

Mr Tickle · 20-01-2020 11:44am

Bazzo wrote: »

Sean O'Brien II is still uncapped. If, and it's a fairly big if unfortunately, he can ever get an injury free run I'd fancy him to get a shot.

Every time he gets fit i get my hopes up that "this is the chance". And he's usually gone in two games time.

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 11:56am

salmocab wrote: »

Will you be on every time someone praises Connors? We get it you don’t like him for reasons of your own but this is becoming very tedious.

This thread was obviously a wind up and I suspect it was done by people who also have a dog in the race. To tout one player above others and pretend they are impartial can create a misrepresentation online of one players abilities over another when that might not factually be the case.

I happen to think Penny is the better player.So I have a dog in the race. Sue me. At least I'm up front about who I support. Biased maybe but I happen to think the people on here parading as impartial are anything but. I also think this is a very bad attempt to troll people.

Clegg · 20-01-2020 11:57am

This thread took a turn.

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 11:59am

Well if you;re leaving the likes of Leavy VDF and Conan out of the thread it seems like a poor attempt at trolling.

Anyone with a bit of knowledge about the backrow situation in this country would have said players in there.

ionadnapokot · 20-01-2020 12:04pm

salmocab wrote: »

Will you be on every time someone praises Connors? We get it you don’t like him for reasons of your own but this is becoming very tedious.

There are ways around this!

Just a reminder...this is only a bit of fun!
but am just interested to gauge what people think of the lads coming through.

thegreycity · 20-01-2020 12:06pm

Those lads are already capped and are about halfway to 25 appearances already (VDF nearly there) so not really relevant to the "Uncapped Back Row" thread.

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 12:10pm

Ah I see that now - apologies all. I jumped the gun.

My take is still that Penny is the more rounded 7 than Connors albeit he is struggling fitness wise to get up to Pro14 levels.

He is the better link man and I think Connors is a tackle machine but limited in what he offers outside of that.

Good for the stats brigade but i would prefer my 7 to be involved ruck time and as a link man.

Penny also has an uncanny knack for socring tries - 8 last season - 4 this season. He happens to be in the right place at the right time often.

Clegg · 20-01-2020 12:12pm

Granny15 wrote: »

Well if you;re leaving the likes of Leavy VDF and Conan out of the thread it seems like a poor attempt at trolling.

Anyone with a bit of knowledge about the backrow situation in this country would have said players in there.

VDF and Conan are in his predicted squad for the next world cup. It's not like they've been jettisoned for rookies. The table above contains promising uncapped players who may make it to test level. It's essentially arguing for what you've been saying re VDF and Conan. I'm unsure about what's gotten you so bothered other than the Connors thing.

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 12:14pm

Well its a way of saying Leavy and VDF will be dropped in a way withhout mentioning them in the thread.

He says Connors will get 4 caps at the next World Cup. Interesting that he thinks he will surpass Leavyand VDF.

Of course I have a dog in the race and it just seemed a little far fetched if not biased.

He has also named his squad for the next world cup and Leavy isn't in it and Connors is. High hopes if not insane.

A bit of a reality check is needed

salmocab · 20-01-2020 2:10pm

Granny15 wrote: »

Well its a way of saying Leavy and VDF will be dropped in a way withhout mentioning them in the thread.

He says Connors will get 4 caps at the next World Cup. Interesting that he thinks he will surpass Leavyand VDF.

Of course I have a dog in the race and it just seemed a little far fetched if not biased.

He has also named his squad for the next world cup and Leavy isn't in it and Connors is. High hopes if not insane.

A bit of a reality check is needed

You don’t have a dog in the race your just cheering for one dog over another.

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 3:29pm

salmocab wrote: »

You don’t have a dog in the race your just cheering for one dog over another.

Why would I cheer for one dog over another if I didnt have one in the race?

Surely you can see that this thread was created by someone with very little knowledge of the game or clearly done to wind Leavy and Penny supporters up.

Buer · 20-01-2020 3:50pm

Will Connors is going to earn 100 caps.

Dubinusa · 20-01-2020 3:54pm

It's fun to speculate! That's why I love the u20's. I gauge the lads and speculate on their future. Backing a lad is no harm. Everyone has an opinion , so leave it at that!

salmocab · 20-01-2020 5:44pm

Granny15 wrote: »

Why would I cheer for one dog over another if I didnt have one in the race?

Surely you can see that this thread was created by someone with very little knowledge of the game or clearly done to wind Leavy and Penny supporters up.

Leavy or Penney supporters? All three play for the same club why would Leinster supporters or anyone else care enough to be wound up? The Leavy omission was clearly a mistake I doubt anyone thinks he’s not at international level. I think your just looking for something thats not there.

ionadnapokot · 20-01-2020 7:37pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

It's fun to speculate! That's why I love the u20's. I gauge the lads and speculate on their future. Backing a lad is no harm. Everyone has an opinion , so leave it at that!

I see David McCann was named as captain of the U-20s
https://www.the42.ie/ireland-u20/news/

David McCann (RBAI / Banbridge RFC / Ulster)
Joshua Dunne (Denstone College / Galwegians RFC / Connacht).
Mark Hernan (St Michael’s College / Lansdowne FC / Leinster)
Cian Hurley (CBC Cork / Garryowen FC / Munster),
Sean O’Brien (Blackrock College / UCD RFC / Leinster),
Mark Hernan (St Michael’s College / Lansdowne FC / Leinster),
Anthony Ryan (Clongowes Wood College / Dublin University FC / Leinster),

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 7:37pm

The fact he hasn’t responded or defended his position to me shows that he was stirring things up and was happy to sit back and watch his blatant wind ups unleashed on this forum.

How do you know I didn’t grow up with Penny or that he’s not my neighbour or cousin? Of course people will have horses in the race and to say we are one team and there is no internal competition kumbayah is naive and in fact I think it’s a further attempt to wind some supporters up.

When a players dreams and contracts and his professional career and his chance to have the honour of representing his country and to do it honourably is on the line you’re damn right people will get defensive/aggressive.

If you’re from a similar background or place as someone you’re damn right you’re going to back their corner and fight for it till the bitter end. That’s all I’m doing. I’m sorry if it doesn’t mean as much to you but it does to me.

It means a lot to people to represent your country and I want the right and deserving player to get that.

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 7:45pm

I’ll re-post my original objections and ask the poster to defend his points against my arguments again:

“I can only assume this is a wind up and not a very good one at that. To say Connors will not only get capped but +50 caps is a pipedream. The lad has made 48 tackles against 2 very poor Pro14 opponents and you are saying he will be the IRish 7 for the next world cup?

Bias aside what has you so confident he will surpass VDF and Leavy. Which brings me to the fact you don't even have Leavy listed - are you just forgetful or mad? Leavy has won Grand Slams in Twickenham ,scored tries against Sarries in European Quarter Finals and won European Cups but you don't list him?

That's not even mentioning the players who are rated as better by Farrell such as Jack O'Donoghue who was selected in this 6 Nations squad as a fully senior player. And you're saying Connors (with all of his 48 tackles - he does nothing else around the pitch and has a very limited game) is better than Scott Penny who had 10 tries for Leinster A in his first season across 8 games and has something like 4 tries this season for the Leinster firsts totally underrated and attempted to be undermined by people like you looking for a wind up.

To my mind Penny is the better all round 7 than Connors and is a better link man with good hands. He suits the Leinster style of 7 better than a Charlatan who looks to get his tackle stats up for the keyboard warriors on Boards and Leinsterfans to tout.

Very poor attmept to tout a overrated and underwhleming player Connors. Pathetic.”

salmocab · 20-01-2020 7:45pm

Granny15 wrote: »

The fact he hasn’t responded or defended his position to me shows that he was stirring things up and was happy to sit back and watch his blatant wind ups unleashed on this forum.

How do you know I didn’t grow up with Penny or that he’s not my neighbour or cousin? Of course people will have horses in the race and to say we are one team and there is no internal competition kumbayah is naive and in fact I think it’s a further attempt to wind some supporters up.

When a players dreams and contracts and his professional career and his chance to have the honour of representing his country and to do it honourably is on the line you’re damn right people will get defensive/aggressive.

If you’re from a similar background or place as someone you’re damn right you’re going to back their corner and fight for it till the bitter end. That’s all I’m doing. I’m sorry if it doesn’t mean as much to you but it does to me.

So your seeing yet another attempt at someone trying to wind people up? This one based on something that wasn’t said. You also seem to think that people saying they prefer or even rate a certain player on an anonymous forum somehow might affect another players chances of making it or playing internationally. Even if you are Penney it doesn’t matter whether people here think he’s the worst player that’s ever lived because it wouldn’t make any difference to his prospects.

Just to add I’m sure the poster has better things to do than defend his post to someone who is posting in the manner you are

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 7:49pm

salmocab wrote: »

So your seeing yet another attempt at someone trying to wind people up? This one based on something that wasn’t said. You also seem to think that people saying they prefer or even rate a certain player on an anonymous forum somehow might affect another players chances of making it or playing internationally. Even if you are Penney it doesn’t matter whether people here think he’s the worst player that’s ever lived because it wouldn’t make any difference to his prospects.

Just to add I’m sure the poster has better things to do than defend his post to someone who is posting in the manner you are

I wouldn’t be so sure. I know for a fact players and journalists read these forums therefore any attempt to influence them or wind them up should be crushed.

And also creating an unstoppable band wagon amongst readers can catch on and take hold amongst supporters and become fact when that’s not necessarily the case. These attempts need to be put to bed immediately

salmocab · 20-01-2020 7:52pm

Granny15 wrote: »

I wouldn’t be so sure. I know for a fact players and journalists read these forums therefore any attempt to influence them or wind them up should be crushed.

Crushed? Are you for real, things said here mean absolutely nothing outside of the 1s and 0s in the boards servers.

prawnsambo · 20-01-2020 7:53pm

Granny15 wrote: »

I wouldn’t be so sure. I know for a fact players and journalists read these forums therefore any attempt to influence them or wind them up should be crushed.

This is delusional. Completely batsh1t crazy. Journalists reading this crap would be coiling up laughing. You're some Walter Mitty to think they'd be interested in publishing your witterings. Or anyone else's (just to be clear).

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 8:45pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

This is delusional. Completely batsh1t crazy. Journalists reading this crap would be coiling up laughing. You're some Walter Mitty to think they'd be interested in publishing your witterings. Or anyone else's (just to be clear).

Ridicule the poster it’s an old ploy. Indeed journalists and players all read or are partial to the utterings online. Rumours, agendas and hyperbole are all too relevant in the modern game most of it starting online. People post online because they support a team or player and want to put across that view.

They hope it catches on and all too often these “opinions” are designed to tout a particular player and create a bandwagon starting amongst supporters which then becomes reality. It catches on. To say it doesn’t and then ridicule me says more about you and your lack of awareness of the negatives of the internet in today’s day and age.

That’s it ridicule me Without getting into the fact that online agendas are in fact exist all over the world are policed by large internet companies and are all over the news. I know for a fact players and journalists read this and a lot of what is posted causes harm.

But don’t get into the arguments on the merits of the players in question. And just to be clear I am not arrogant enough to think they publish my utterings but I do think if they see opposition to one point of view they will be see the stupidity of that point of view and perhaps think against going along with it.

prawnsambo · 20-01-2020 8:49pm

I'm ridiculing the post. Which I see you've doubled down on. You can read my last post as a response to it. I see no reason to repeat myself.

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 8:52pm

And I’ll triple down on it. A lot of what is said online is harmful and dangerous. I’m just defending my corner.

bilston · 20-01-2020 8:53pm

Clegg wrote: »

All the best ones are from Leinster tbf.

McCann from Ulster might be a good one, but can't be compared to Doris or Deegan yet.

But while we're here, you're the Leinster fan, what is it that happens at schoolboy rugby (and youth rugby) in Leinster that you keep churning out all these back rowers?

Squidgy Black · 20-01-2020 8:56pm

bilston wrote: »

McCann from Ulster might be a good one, but can't be compared to Doris or Deegan yet.

But while we're here, you're the Leinster fan, what is it that happens at schoolboy rugby (and youth rugby) in Leinster that you keep churning out all these back rowers?

Full S&C routines and dieticians throughout secondary school is probably the biggest factor. Full time qualified coaching staff to run it all too.

And the superior blood lines of course.

salmocab · 20-01-2020 9:21pm

Granny15 wrote: »

And I’ll triple down on it. A lot of what is said online is harmful and dangerous. I’m just defending my corner.

Surely if you claim to be defending your corner then it’s you pushing an agenda? I doubt many here care whether Penney or Connors is better or turns out the best and generally are hopeful they both turn out to be top class, you however have repeatedly knocked Connors which is the only thing I’ve seen here that’s close to agenda pushing. Which presumably your doing because you apparently feel it might be good for a Penney’s career.

prawnsambo · 20-01-2020 9:24pm

salmocab wrote: »

Surely if you claim to be defending your corner then it’s you pushing an agenda? I doubt many here care whether Penney or Connors is better or turns out the best and generally are hopeful they both turn out to be top class, you however have repeatedly knocked Connors which is the only thing I’ve seen here that’s close to agenda pushing. Which presumably your doing because you apparently feel it might be good for a Penney’s career.

It's completely deluded. [Insert name of random anonymous poster on boards] says [Insert name of player] is [insert superlative of choice]. We really should cap this guy. Said no coach ever.

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 9:26pm

I said I wanted to stop any band wagon attempts. To do that I have had to emphasise one players attributes at the expense of another’s. If you want to call that agenda then fine you’re entitled to your opinion.

salmocab · 20-01-2020 9:26pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's completely deluded. [Insert name of random anonymous poster on boards] says [Insert name of player] is [insert superlative of choice]. We really should cap this guy. Said no coach ever.

We should start a campaign to get venjur capped

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 9:29pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's completely deluded. [Insert name of random anonymous poster on boards] says [Insert name of player] is [insert superlative of choice]. We really should cap this guy. Said no coach ever.

Band wagons start all the time online. To say they don’t is delusional. I’ll stop there because I’m it’s going around in circles. You don’t believe things started online catch on and I do.

salmocab · 20-01-2020 9:33pm

Granny15 wrote: »

Band wagons start all the time online. To say they don’t is delusional. I’ll stop there because I’m it’s going around in circles. You don’t believe things started online catch on and I do.

We’re talking about professional athletes with professional coaches not telling people Cathy in number 17 is having an affair.

prawnsambo · 20-01-2020 9:34pm

salmocab wrote: »

We should start a campaign to get venjur capped

So many great attributes. Where to start?

Buer · 20-01-2020 9:34pm

salmocab wrote: »

We’re talking about professional athletes with professional coaches not telling people Cathy in number 17 is having an affair.

I f*cking knew it.

salmocab · 20-01-2020 9:35pm

Buer wrote: »

I f*cking knew it.

A hussey so she is

prawnsambo · 20-01-2020 9:37pm

Buer wrote: »

I f*cking knew it.

salmocab wrote: »

A hussey so she is

Cathy Hussey is having an affair?

This is how it starts.

Venjur's carrying stats are off the wall.

Granny15 · 20-01-2020 9:40pm

salmocab wrote: »

We’re talking about professional athletes with professional coaches not telling people Cathy in number 17 is having an affair.

Even still I thought I’d nip it in the bud. You never hear the uproar of support after Penny scores 10 tries in his first season and 4 tries in 5 matches this season. He is very often in the right place at the right time and there’s no mention of it online. Connors gets 48 tackles and the whole world knows about it.

The Uncapped Back Row “Stocktake” - 2020 & Beyond

Who will gain the most International caps 58 votes

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