Colm O’Rourke’s article today

Dots1982 · 12-01-2020 4:05pm #1

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/colm-orourke-no-more-county-teams-a-salary-cap-and-a-new-league-why-semi-pro-would-be-better-than-status-quo-38853580.html

This will happen, probably within this decade. If anyone wants me to copy and paste the article so to avoid the registerwall then let me know.

Donald Trump · 12-01-2020 4:44pm

You can't have a draft system for semi-pro.

Imagine some fella good enough to get a contract and being told he just got drafted to where he considers the back arse of nowhere, a place to which he has no connection at all.

Kerrydude1981 · 12-01-2020 5:01pm

What I can see happening is that once a player is in with the county panel then he is locked down and will not play any games for his club at all during the year

Of course in some cases this is probably already happening

Dots1982 · 12-01-2020 5:04pm

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

What I can see happening is that once a player is in with the county panel then he is locked down and will not play any games for his club at all during the year

Of course in some cases this is probably already happening

Even at the end of the county season you don’t players will go back to their clubs for club championship?

Donnielighto · 12-01-2020 5:04pm

Won't work, there isn't enough to support this. How many counties could currently support a professional and if you get rid of some teams, reduce it to 16 or 8 it still wouldn't work.

Hurling side of gaa would have a fit over it too I'd say.

Donnielighto · 12-01-2020 5:05pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/colm-orourke-no-more-county-teams-a-salary-cap-and-a-new-league-why-semi-pro-would-be-better-than-status-quo-38853580.html

This will happen, probably within this decade. If anyone wants me to copy and paste the article so to avoid the registerwall then let me know.

Can you post the body?

Dots1982 · 12-01-2020 5:07pm

The GAA has been in a state of flux for a while. Controversies abound.
Mickey Harte's comments on Cathal McShane's possible move to the AFL indicate a parochial attitude which still persists in many parts of the GAA.

No-one likes to lose players to Australia, but Harte would be better off wishing McShane well in his sporting pursuit and telling him that he is always welcome back to the Tyrone team. That same Tyrone team don't own him. McShane owes them nothing.

Would the attitude be any different if he went to work in New York or San Francisco? Or is it the prospect of him getting paid for playing which grates with so many?

There is not much being said about the number of players who are walking away from county teams. Many of these are from the weaker counties. These players are not fools. They realise that the league is a competition where they can make some progress, but the championship is a dead duck. Does Harte or any of the others who complain about players going to Australia have any feelings for this much larger group?

This problem is created and fostered by the GAA's fixture schedule and competitions structure, but there is very little done about it, maybe because most of those walking away are not well known. If the new proposals go through with the league and championship being flipped then there will be a response. It would be a start on the long road.

Of course there are other solutions to the problems of the present. Perhaps a semi-professional league would solve a lot of those problems at both club and county level. I suspect the GPA would be happy, even if they profess otherwise, and players would naturally be delighted to be paid for playing. Anyone who says otherwise is either stupid or brainwashed. Any man or woman is entitled to get paid for working if that is what playing football becomes.

Very many of us would not like to see the GAA travelling this road, but there are plenty of examples in other sports of how it has worked well. Aussie rules, which so many blame quite a few ills on, was in a similar position to the GAA 40 years ago. The game was largely based in Melbourne (with a population close to five million) and teams represented districts of the city such as Hawthorn, Fitzroy, North Melbourne, Collingwood, Essendon and so on. It was very popular and, like rugby in pre-professional times, players started to get money to play.

Eventually an all-Australian League was formed with teams in Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth and the Gold Coast. Money talked and players did not represent their districts anymore as the league and finances grew. Yet even though the teams were franchises or owned by supporters' clubs, the league has grown, crowds are huge and it is financially very healthy.

One of the reasons for this success is the salary cap. Every club can pay around $12.5m to a panel of 42 players. If one player gets $1m, the other 41 share $11.5m. This cap is rigidly enforced. The big money has come from TV rights - a six-year deal was struck in 2015 for $2.5bn.

The GAA could have a semi-professional league based on this model. County teams would disappear (many have to all intents and purposes) and there could be 12 or 14 teams who would all play each other during the season. Naturally there would be at least one Dublin side, maybe even two or three, and one in Kerry, Mayo, Galway, Tyrone and other centres where a team could be supported.

Their survival would depend on having a major sponsor and a good support base as each team would play six or eight home games every year.

County teams as we know them would disappear and only the best players would have a chance of getting a contract. The reality would be that 50 or 60 players playing in Dublin would be snapped up. Not just Brian Fenton, Ciaran Kilkenny, Brian Howard and Con O'Callaghan, but a whole host of other club players who do not get a look in at the moment.

Perhaps the final some day could be between Google North Dublin against Facebook Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, or it could still be Meath v Kerry. Most teams would be based near the east coast where the population is growing rapidly. Home grounds would not be so important. In Melbourne there are matches every week and sometimes more than one in the MCG and Marvel Stadium. They are not as hung up on ownership as we are. Play the game and pay the rent rather than burying millions and millions in bricks and mortar. Put the money into the game is their motto.

This type of league has many advantages. First of all it would remove teams from under the auspices of county boards and save counties a fortune. More and more money is being wasted on county teams as the dog continues to chase his tail. Free from the burden of financing a county senior side which 95 per cent of the time goes nowhere, there would be an opportunity to develop the game properly at club and underage level, with greater funds available. There would be no fixture conflicts as the county players would no longer play with their clubs. The hassle over conflicts with the third level, under 20s and other competitions would instantly disappear as the county players focus on just one team. And young players would strive to get into the big league.

The key, as always, is money. For sure a better TV deal would be possible as a professional game would mean more TV channels would be interested. Games would be more competitive, at least after an initial settling in period as the weaker teams every year would get the first choices in the draft. Supporters clubs would flourish, as they do in Melbourne, where some have more than 100,000 members, and for a small fee they get tickets for matches at low prices, lower than we pay into championship matches in Croke Park. And bigger sponsors would get involved.

For many the thought of such a move is heresy. At the same time we have to face up to the fact that there is creeping professionalism anyway. One where some of the biggest bluffers in back-room teams get highly paid while the best players get nothing. Is that sustainable or even fair? We now have a system where the rich have nearly devoured the poor. If the GPA organised a strike among players from weaker counties to get proper treatment I might even support them.

Life is full of choices. Everyone in the GAA runs away from hard decisions. This is one choice which would solve a lot of problems and would mean that there would be no need for players to travel to Australia to play professionally. Mickey Harte would hardly approve of this either.

There is nothing wrong with a strictly amateur game so long as everyone plays by the same rules. I would still prefer a heavily-reformed GAA to this semi-professional model, but it would be better than what we have at present.

In the meantime, some will travel to Australia in pursuit of adventure as much as money. Good luck to them. There is nothing easy about making it down under and shooting the messenger won't stop the gentle trickle of talent making the hard voyage.

Kerrydude1981 · 12-01-2020 5:07pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Even at the end of the county season you don’t players will go back to their clubs for club championship?

Ive a feeling they wont, they will be straight back into the pre season training after a month or so off

Its happening already teams are starting to train in November,

There is a hurling conference on down here next Friday night

One of the topics that is going to be covered is "how to integrate inter county players back into the club panel"

mountgomery burns · 12-01-2020 5:19pm

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Ive a feeling they wont, they will be straight back into the pre season training after a month or so off

Its happening already teams are starting to train in November,

There is a hurling conference on down here next Friday night

One of the topics that is going to be covered is "how to integrate inter county players back into the club panel"

I think while it would solve the fixtures problem for clubs, they won't adopt it due to their own ambitions.

In fairness, be hard to blame a small club for not wanting to give up their best players for the business end of the year.

Strumms · 12-01-2020 5:28pm

If Gaelic football and or hurling was to turn professional you’d just have the biggest counties dominating even more

theoneeyedman · 12-01-2020 5:30pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/colm-orourke-no-more-county-teams-a-salary-cap-and-a-new-league-why-semi-pro-would-be-better-than-status-quo-38853580.html

I've said that here and elsewhere, that an outside influence (a sponsor, broadcast company, Internet company or someone with deep pockets) will eventually try to use the GAA football in particular to establish themselves, like Sky did in the UK 30 years ago, and others have done too.

The bones of the structure will eventually be tried, whether it works or not longterm I don't know. The drive towards elitism, facilitated by those based in Croke Park, the GAA hierarchy and the GPA, will eventually cause a spilt between club and county.

The draft thing, I don't know how that would work here. I always find it fascinating in the most capitalist country in the world, where the word socialist is a cuss word, operates a proper draft system that works towards equity in their elite sports and works against the bigger, more successful teams. If it works there, it can work anywhere, but I don't know how it would work here.

Also the salary cap.... Yea right. Paddy doesn't work like that, look at the 'expanses' and stuff washing around the game now, when it's supposed to be amateur. We're too crooked to make that work, and the culture here isn't one to enforce rules like that.

skooterblue2 · 12-01-2020 5:37pm

Colm O Ruairc, isn't the genuis he thinks he is.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bank-chases-football-legend-for-853463-development-loan-26762476.html

If he was that sort of financial genius he would be working for the bank instead of owing them money. The bank staff must all get excited the day he passes the window.

KevRossi · 12-01-2020 5:49pm

Strumms wrote: »

If Gaelic football and or hurling was to turn professional you’d just have the biggest counties dominating even more

O'Rourke is talking about disbanding counties totally and setting up 12-16 new teams that may be initially based on population centres, but I suspect would be more like 'franchises'.

It could end out with the scenario that a team from the west could get a major sponsor and have David Moran, Ciaran Kilkenny, Brian Fenton, Michael Murphy, Cathal McShane a a few others playing on it.

It could be called 'Galway', 'Connacht', 'Ireland West', 'Setanta Allstars' or something similar. He also envisages sponsors lending their names to the teams like 'Red Bull Salzburg', so you'd have 'Connacht Tesla' or similar.

I can see where he's coming from, the division would be painful, many county grounds would close, there'd be plenty of calls of 'traitor' if GAA HQ don't go along with it, but it would give a clean break between club and the new format. I don't think there would be the same passion at some matches, it would be like Leinster v Munster in rugby.

Worth a discussion at least.

Dots1982 · 12-01-2020 5:51pm

theoneeyedman wrote: »

I've said that here and elsewhere, that an outside influence (a sponsor, broadcast company, Internet company or someone with deep pockets) will eventually try to use the GAA football in particular to establish themselves, like Sky did in the UK 30 years ago, and others have done too.

The bones of the structure will eventually be tried, whether it works or not longterm I don't know. The drive towards elitism, facilitated by those based in Croke Park, the GAA hierarchy and the GPA, will eventually cause a spilt between club and county.

The draft thing, I don't know how that would work here. I always find it fascinating in the most capitalist country in the world, where the word socialist is a cuss word, operates a proper draft system that works towards equity in their elite sports and works against the bigger, more successful teams. If it works there, it can work anywhere, but I don't know how it would work here.

Also the salary cap.... Yea right. Paddy doesn't work like that, look at the 'expanses' and stuff washing around the game now, when it's supposed to be amateur. We're too crooked to make that work, and the culture here isn't one to enforce rules like that.

It mightn’t happens exactly like orourke says with a draft or salary cap but the bones of what orourke is talking about will happen. It’s how elite sport works on every country on earth.

RoversCeltic · 12-01-2020 8:21pm

theoneeyedman wrote: »

I've said that here and elsewhere, that an outside influence (a sponsor, broadcast company, Internet company or someone with deep pockets) will eventually try to use the GAA football in particular to establish themselves, like Sky did in the UK 30 years ago, and others have done too.

The bones of the structure will eventually be tried, whether it works or not longterm I don't know. The drive towards elitism, facilitated by those based in Croke Park, the GAA hierarchy and the GPA, will eventually cause a spilt between club and county.

The draft thing, I don't know how that would work here. I always find it fascinating in the most capitalist country in the world, where the word socialist is a cuss word, operates a proper draft system that works towards equity in their elite sports and works against the bigger, more successful teams. If it works there, it can work anywhere, but I don't know how it would work here.

Also the salary cap.... Yea right. Paddy doesn't work like that, look at the 'expanses' and stuff washing around the game now, when it's supposed to be amateur. We're too crooked to make that work, and the culture here isn't one to enforce rules like that.

i think you are over estimating how popular GAA is in Ireland, playing numbers are poor, viewing figures are poor i.e a couple of 100000 for most championship game, the all ireland hurling and football finals combined get lower figures than a big football game

we have a small population and in our only big city GAA isnt overly popu;ar

think again

Donald Trump · 12-01-2020 8:45pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

It mightn’t happens exactly like orourke says with a draft or salary cap but the bones of what orourke is talking about will happen. It’s how elite sport works on every country on earth.

Sure look at how well the FAI did out of it. (And they were playing probably the second most popular sport worldwide.) Flying they are. And world class facilities for all the local soccerball clubs :pac:

Donald Trump · 13-01-2020 12:48am

RoversCeltic wrote: »

i think you are over estimating how popular GAA is in Ireland, playing numbers are poor, viewing figures are poor i.e a couple of 100000 for most championship game, the all ireland hurling and football finals combined get lower figures than a big football game

we have a small population and in our only big city GAA isnt overly popu;ar

think again

What would you think has better "playing numbers".

There are 12 adult football divisions in Dublin leagues (that's not including the hurling as well). With about 16 teams per division. Say 20 per team as that is what could get their game every week. That multiplies up to say over 3800 adults playing the game week-in-week out in Dublin alone. Dublin would have more competition due to other available sports.

What do you think has better playing numbers? Soccerball? How many soccer players in Dublin? Given the smaller teamsize. Are there more than 200 adult soccer teams playing in Dublin every week?

I mean competitive games. If you want to count fat fellas trying to do keepy-uppies while balancing their tins of Bavaria on their bellies in the local park then that's not really serious. It would be a bit like saying that athletics is a huge sport in Ireland because a good few people do 10 mins on the treadmill when they make it to the gym.

Strumms · 13-01-2020 1:50am

Amalgamation of counties, ok. But you’d need to be careful...

You could see the benefit of a LOUTH/LEITRIM side certainly, more competitive, more interest in the region etc.. MEATH/WEST MEATH the same...

What about if Galway and Mayo were to merge... could or would the GAA refuse ?

Do we just merge until there are 15/16 teams and Dublin get beaten ? Is that the end game ?

13-01-2020 1:55am

Wouldn’t like to see the counties going, you’d kill off the GAA going that route as it’s what makes it what it is really. When Dublin stop winning so much he’ll calm all this rubbish down anyway.

Sunny Disposition · 13-01-2020 2:00am

It’s a good idea I think. Gives guys from disadvantaged counties a chance. Plus Intercounty is destroying the club game, ridiculous that club hurling not being played regularly all summer in every county.

PTH2009 · 13-01-2020 3:28am

Franchises with there catchment areas (Max 3 counties)

South East Vikings (Waterford/Kilkenny/Wexford)
Shannon Warriors (Tipp/Limerick/Clare)
The Blacksmiths (Sligo/Leitrim/Roscommon)
The Strikers (West Cork/Kerry)
The Red Polos (East Cork)
The Lone Wolves (Carlow/Kildare/Wicklow)
The Midland Kings (Offaly/Laois/Westmeath)
The Western Wilds (Galway/Mayo)
The Red Deers (Donegal/Derry/Tyrone)
Blue Dogs (Longford/Cavan/Fermanagh)
The Celts (Monaghan/Louth/Meath)
The Black Lanterns (Armagh/Antrim/Down)
City Ramblers (North Dublin)
The Swans (South Dublin)
The Expats (UK/Europe Teams)
The Fighters (USA team

League each team plays each other home and
away (April-November) with top 6 going into the next round

Playoffs (All played in Croke Park)
QFs (3rd vs 6th and 4th vs 5th)
SFs( 1st and 2nd placed teams vs QF winners)
Grand Final (First Sunday in December)

Off season is til February

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 9:39am

PTH2009 wrote: »

Franchises with there catchment areas (Max 3 counties)

South East Vikings (Waterford/Kilkenny/Wexford)
Shannon Warriors (Tipp/Limerick/Clare)
The Blacksmiths (Sligo/Leitrim/Roscommon)
The Strikers (West Cork/Kerry)
The Red Polos (East Cork)
The Lone Wolves (Carlow/Kildare/Wicklow)
The Midland Kings (Offaly/Laois/Westmeath)
The Western Wilds (Galway/Mayo)
The Red Deers (Donegal/Derry/Tyrone)
Blue Dogs (Longford/Cavan/Fermanagh)
The Celts (Monaghan/Louth/Meath)
The Black Lanterns (Armagh/Antrim/Down)
City Ramblers (North Dublin)
The Swans (South Dublin)
The Expats (UK/Europe Teams)
The Fighters (USA team

League each team plays each other home and
away (April-November) with top 6 going into the next round

Playoffs (All played in Croke Park)
QFs (3rd vs 6th and 4th vs 5th)
SFs( 1st and 2nd placed teams vs QF winners)
Grand Final (First Sunday in December)

Off season is til February

Get rid of the expats and fighters. They wouldn’t be near the standard ever and couldn’t train as a team. London abs New York can compete in the all Ireland junior championship with Lanchashire

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 9:42am

Not enough viewers and thus TV revenue to even contemplate this

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 10:53am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Not enough viewers and thus TV revenue to even contemplate this

How can you tell that it won’t have viewers?

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 11:04am

Dots1982 wrote: »

How can you tell that it won’t have viewers?

i didnt actually say that , did i?

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 11:08am

sydthebeat wrote: »

i didnt actually say that , did i?

Being pedantic this Monday are we?

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 11:23am

Dots1982 wrote: »

Being pedantic this Monday are we?

seriously???

either debate what i said or leave it.

i'm not going to argue with you over something i didnt say to begin with.

to break it down easier for you, ireland, even taking in a wider diaspora, wouldnt have the TV viewers (and thus TV revenue) sufficient to create anything like the AFL system, even on a semi pro basis.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 11:36am

sydthebeat wrote: »

seriously???

either debate what i said or leave it.

i'm not going to argue with you over something i didnt say to begin with.

to break it down easier for you, ireland, even taking in a wider diaspora, wouldnt have the TV viewers (and thus TV revenue) sufficient to create anything like the AFL system, even on a semi pro basis.

Enhance your calm John Spartan.

I think GAA can be supported at pro level. If you don’t fair enough but elite sports people in every country get paid. Seems strange that Ireland is the worlds only country that couldn’t support it. If countries smaller and poorer than ours can support women’s professional leagues of basketball and volleyball I don’t see how a rich country like Ireland can’t support a pro version of GAA.

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 12:04pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Enhance your calm John Spartan.

I think GAA can be supported at pro level. If you don’t fair enough but elite sports people in every country get paid. Seems strange that Ireland is the worlds only country that couldn’t support it. If countries smaller and poorer than ours can support women’s professional leagues of basketball and volleyball I don’t see how a rich country like Ireland can’t support a pro version of GAA.

The obvious answer is that its the unilateral aspect of the sport.
Coupled on top of that the small population we have and limited market / audience for the sport.

Do you think TV revenue is going to significantly increase to pay these players?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/paul-rouse/go-figure-how-the-gaas-sky-numbers-really-stack-up-377396.html

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 12:13pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

The obvious answer is that its the unilateral aspect of the sport.
Coupled on top of that the small population we have and limited market / audience for the sport.

Do you think TV revenue is going to significantly increase to pay these players?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/paul-rouse/go-figure-how-the-gaas-sky-numbers-really-stack-up-377396.html

What do you mean by the unilateral aspect of sport?

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 12:47pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

What do you mean by the unilateral aspect of sport?

unilateral, in that its a sport that affects only one nation

chasingpaper · 13-01-2020 12:52pm

The major reason people bother to watch most Gaelic football matches is due to club/county loyalty, built up over generations.

Sure you have people turning up to watch brutal football in January, with fringe players in terrible weather. That is due to an almost cult like religious devotion some people have to their counties and clubs. In a franchise model you lose the main appeal of the county system and these people become "consumers".

Now instead of tradition, you are selling a product. The product has to be better. In the last 10 years increased S&C, more organized tactics, and overall professionalism has changed the game to be more predictable and less entertaining.

This would get even worse under a professional system, more money means more pressure. Teams would reduce risk even further and be more organized. The game itself is not a good visual product when played in regimented way. Without the traditional attachment of the county/club "consumers" won't buy it.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 1:10pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

unilateral, in that its a sport that affects only one nation

Ok, so let’s talk about that from a couple of different angles..

1- Tayto crisps is a product that only really sells to Irish people. If you took away the Irish market from Tayto they would go out of business. So Tayto is very like the GAA in terms of who it sells to. Yet the domestic Irish market is enough to sustain Tayto and have it turn a profit. And Tayto have more direct competition in the market than the GAA do. The idea that large enterprises can’t sustain themselves off the Irish domestic market doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

2- the LOI has no TV deal and very low crowds compared to the GAA yet it survives. About 20% of clubs get money from the Europe qualification but apart from that there is no international aspect to the league. It may aswell be unilateral for the majority of clubs. Yet you are arguing that intercounty GAA with currently 3 tv deals with different stations, huge attendances compared to LOI and far better stadium infrastructure can’t compete in a climate of professionalism. You think that?

3- as already stated Ireland is the exception when it comes to elite sport. It is the only country on earth that doesn’t pay a lot of its top sportsmen. We are the exception and eventually market forces will overtake Irish exceptionalism.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 1:12pm

chasingpaper wrote: »

The major reason people bother to watch most Gaelic football matches is due to club/county loyalty, built up over generations.

Sure you have people turning up to watch brutal football in January, with fringe players in terrible weather. That is due to an almost cult like religious devotion some people have to their counties and clubs. In a franchise model you lose the main appeal of the county system and these people become "consumers".

Now instead of tradition, you are selling a product. The product has to be better. In the last 10 years increased S&C, more organized tactics, and overall professionalism has changed the game to be more predictable and less entertaining.

This would get even worse under a professional system, more money means more pressure. Teams would reduce risk even further and be more organized. The game itself is not a good visual product when played in regimented way. Without the traditional attachment of the county/club "consumers" won't buy it.

The idea that professionalism will lead to a weaker less entertaining product will be greeted with interest by the Rugby Union fraternity I’m sure.

Akabusi · 13-01-2020 1:25pm

We know the back door has only ensured that big teams that get caught on an off day get another go, the smaller teams still have no hope, yes they get maybe another one or two matches but it all ends the same when they come up against one of the big teams.
I'd create an amalgamation in each province from the panels of the teams that did not make the semi-finals (Ulster & Leinster) and Final (Munster & Connaught).

These new amalgamations would be a 35 strong panel.

Take this years Ulster Championship, it is likely that Cavan, Donegal, Fermanagh, Antrim and Derry won't make the semi-finals. Imagine a panel picked from these counties. Sure it would be dominated by Donegal but the best players in the other counties would make it such as:
McVeety, Faulkner, McKiernan (Cavan)
McGuigan, McKaigue, Cassidy (Derry)
Donnelly, Quigley, Jones (Fermanagh)
Johnston, Lynch, Rice (Antrim)

Such a panel would be capable of challenging for an All Ireland.

They go into group 1 and just to play it out after an open draw:
Ulster amalg v Leinster amalg which say Ulster win
Munster amalg v Connaught amalg which say Connaught win

Final of Ulster amalg v Connaught amalg where the winner gets a place in the super 8s

The rest of the championship works as follows:

The four provincial winners go straight into the Super 8s.

The 4 provincial beaten semi-finalists (Leinster and Ulster) go into group 2 and the same thing as above happens where the winner goes into the super 8s

The 4 provincial beaten finalists go into group 3. This group has two places in the super 8s so you only have to win your semi-final.

You could end up with a Super 8s of

Tyrone
Dublin
Kerry
Galway
One of the amalgamations (say Donegal, Cavan, Fermanagh and Antrim
Two beaten provincial finalists (say Cork and Mayo)
The best of the beaten provincial semi-finalists (say Kildare)

It should cut down on the amount of one sided games we have being seeing. It is fairer on the beaten finalists from each province. The best players from the weakest teams get to showcase their talent. Reduces the amount of games leaving more time for the clubs.

chasingpaper · 13-01-2020 1:28pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

The idea that professionalism will lead to a weaker less entertaining product will be greeted with interest by the Rugby Union fraternity I’m sure.

Very different sport for a start.

Rugby sustains 4 professional club teams on this island as opposed to 12-16 proposed in GAA. If we had 4 GAA teams, it would get very boring very fast watching railway cup games all year! There is no international dimension.

Also, most of the rugby funding comes from the international team playing against other countries. Not applicable to GAA.

And a huge aspect of rugby is collisions and contact, that is partially what sells the game, these collisions improve with professionalism. But they have massive issues now with concussions due to players being bigger and faster.

Rugby constantly change the rules to try to ensure an entertaining product. Many rugby people do lament that professionalism has taken from the game, there is less space on the pitch and far more structured due to fitter players and defensive systems.

Anyway I would prefer if GAA was not seen as a product and stayed away from professionalism.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 1:37pm

chasingpaper wrote: »

Anyway I would prefer if GAA was not seen as a product

The GAA is seen as a product by the hierarchy of the GAA when they signed TV deals, took on corporate sponsors and put high prices on tickets. It’s been going on since the 90s.

It wasn’t my doing.

As for your rugby can only support 4 teams in Ireland argument.

Well that doesn’t stand up. Rugby is bit part player in terms of player participation in Ireland. GAA in contrast is the big show. Clubs in every parish.

chasingpaper · 13-01-2020 2:15pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

The GAA is seen as a product by the hierarchy of the GAA when they signed TV deals, took on corporate sponsors and put high prices on tickets. It’s been going on since the 90s.

It wasn’t my doing.

As for your rugby can only support 4 teams in Ireland argument.

Well that doesn’t stand up. Rugby is bit part player in terms of player participation in Ireland. GAA in contrast is the big show. Clubs in every parish.

I would disagree with most of how GAA hierarchy see things.

I just think it professionalising the game is would be a further drift away from the principals of the organisation. It should be about club, parish, volunteerism, not money.

That is my opinion on what the GAA is about, I'm not too pushed about the inter-county game anymore.. Others (including Croke Park) may be different and just care about inter-county.

I did not compare GAA to rugby in the first place, but 4 teams in rugby is not an argument, that is a fact. Rugby can support 4 club teams with their revenue. About 80% of the revenue is from international matches and most of the money the provinces make is from international pro14/European cup(French and British TV rights mainly). This means they are not comparable to GAA in terms of revenue potential.

Having clubs around the country is fine, it does not necessarily mean that support will translate to inter-county franchises or amalgamations. The GAA has taken piss out of club players and volunteers for a long time and grassroots will eventually get sick of it. Especially if you take away their county team, it is their tie to the elite level.

If you think the Abbott Derry, Tyrone, Donegal Amalgamation will have same support from Donegal/Derry people as the actual the Donegal/Derry team then we have fundamentally different view on what the GAA is and why it is supported.

It is hard enough getting different parts of Donegal to buy into same team and they are from the same county!

If people want to amalgamate to help make a better fairer competition, I'm all for it, but it should be carefully done. County pride and tradition are so important in GAA and should not be taken for granted. Amalgamating just for the sake of making the game professional or semi professional does not sit well with me, even if it was financially viable.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 2:23pm

Professional sports have volunteers and have amateur clubs and grassroots. They didn’t just pack up and go home when the sport went pro.

brocbrocach · 13-01-2020 3:23pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Professional sports have volunteers and have amateur clubs and grassroots. They didn’t just pack up and go home when the sport went pro.

Have a look at the attendances for AIL rugby these days. A couple of hundred for the top teams. It's a far far cry from the 1990s. So the supporters went whole hog and disengaged from their club teams in favour of the provinces. I'd say most hardcore GAA supporters come at it from a different angle.

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 3:28pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Professional sports have volunteers and have amateur clubs and grassroots. They didn’t just pack up and go home when the sport went pro.

There will be no connection between the clubs and the franchises, support will have to be commandeered rather than grown organically... pretty much the anthetitis of what the GAA is about.

look at welsh club rugby as well as an example of where there is a disconnect between grassroot fans and franchises... made worse where local club rivals were forced to join together to create a franchise club.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 3:35pm

brocbrocach wrote: »

Have a look at the attendances for AIL rugby these days. A couple of hundred for the top teams. It's a far far cry from the 1990s. So the supporters went whole hog and disengaged from their club teams in favour of the provinces. I'd say most hardcore GAA supporters come at it from a different angle.

I’m not sure the exact point you are trying to make here if you can be more specific?

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 3:39pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

There will be no connection between the clubs and the franchises, support will have to be commandeered rather than grown organically... pretty much the anthetitis of what the GAA is about.

look at welsh club rugby as well as an example of where there is a disconnect between grassroot fans and franchises... made worse where local club rivals were forced to join together to create a franchise club.

Maybe the main problem for welsh clubs is less that they’ve no identity or link to grassroots and more that apart from Llanelli winning a couple of Pro14s they’ve never won much.

partyguinness · 13-01-2020 3:41pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Colm O Ruairc, isn't the genuis he thinks he is.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bank-chases-football-legend-for-853463-development-loan-26762476.html

If he was that sort of financial genius he would be working for the bank instead of owing them money. The bank staff must all get excited the day he passes the window.

Now now. Play the ball not the man.

KaneToad · 13-01-2020 3:50pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

3- as already stated Ireland is the exception when it comes to elite sport. It is the only country on earth that doesn’t pay a lot of its top sportsmen. We are the exception and eventually market forces will overtake Irish exceptionalism.

There are very few true elite sports people in Ireland. There are plenty that devote a lot of time to their chosen sport but that doesn't make them elite. There is no market for a professional GAA model.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 3:53pm

KaneToad wrote: »

There is no market for a professional GAA model.

Yet there is a huge market for the amateur elite GAA model. A 50-60 million annual revenue market.

beggars_bush · 13-01-2020 4:03pm

the day they start being paid is the day I stop going to games

the GAA has to stop talking about everything as a 'product'

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 4:05pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

the day they start being paid is the day I stop going to games
'

Why specifically would players been paid make you stop supporting the game?

brocbrocach · 13-01-2020 4:11pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

I’m not sure the exact point you are trying to make here if you can be more specific?

That you can't expect that everything will transfer over lock stock and barrel. Volunteers might back off, supporters might not engage.
As said above, Welsh rugby is a good example. The Welsh regions have no real support base but their traditional clubs still have a very strong support and identity. If the Welsh rugby supporters wanted to folow the regions they'd fill their stadiums many times over.

partyguinness · 13-01-2020 4:17pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

3- as already stated Ireland is the exception when it comes to elite sport. It is the only country on earth that doesn’t pay a lot of its top sportsmen. We are the exception and eventually market forces will overtake Irish exceptionalism.

What market forces would they be now?

There is no other market in Ireland or worldwide for that matter competing for GAA players. Sure you will get the very very odd player who heads over to Aus or maybe cross over to rugby or soccer but Ireland and the GAA is 'exceptional'- there is no other comparison that I am aware of anyway. The AI is not played anywhere else and that is not going to change.

This is not like say soccer, where there is a worldwide market.

Can you show us another sport anywhere worldwide that has such a peculiar set of circumstances e.g. indigenous sport played on a small island of 4m people not in competition with other sports and they are not paid.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 4:18pm

brocbrocach wrote: »

As said above, Welsh rugby is a good example. The Welsh regions have no real support base but their traditional clubs still have a very strong support and identity. If the Welsh rugby supporters wanted to folow the regions they'd fill their stadiums many times over.

Ok, well two things

1- already stated, a big problem for welsh sides is they aren’t successful. Leinster didn’t immediately become a huge brand overnight. They built their brand by being successful over time. This never happened for welsh clubs.

2- the welsh clubs exist in both their original form as single clubs and then only join up for international competition. I think I’m correct with that understanding? In the GAA professional model they will only exist in one form. They won’t be one form in another competition and then switch to amalgamate teams in another competition.

Colm O’Rourke’s article today

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