Is the U.S.A. the most extreme terrorist nation?

ArchXStanton · 11-01-2020 08:49PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

If you read about their interference in countries in the 20th century they are definitely meddling in everything

It's a long long list...

ArchXStanton · 11-01-2020 08:50PM

MMXX wrote: »

They're certainly the most aggressive nation, and they've certainly started more wars, invaded more countries - in modern history, they've certainly dropped more bombs, sold more weapons, killed, maimed and destroyed more people than most nations - but... don't they say one man's terrorist, is another man's freedom fighter?

And that's why they do it after all, freedom.

They kill so they can be free. They need to keep Americans safe - from bad countries like Iran, and Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya - and all the bad countries. They're bad countries, and even though they live thousands and thousands of miles away - the people in the bad countries don't REALLY want to get on with their own lives - they want to take away the freedoms that Americans enjoy.

That's why they do it, freedom.

The bad countries don't like America's way of life. It's not about oil, or global domination, power, control - like some would have you believe. It's about FREEDOM. Is wanting to be free extreme? Does wanting freedom make you a terrorist? If America doesn't kill the people from the bad countries - how will America be free?

They can't - it's not possible.

Freedom - it's all about freedom, not oil - freedom.

I'd love to know when americas freedams moved to the middle east

RobbingBandit · 11-01-2020 08:55PM

Trump's a business mogul hrs not a politician most if not all he has done has been motivated by financial gains the few political moves he's made have been flawed and very easily noticed he's in this for the money and the gleam gained from being POTUS.

MMXX · 11-01-2020 08:57PM

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I'd love to know when americas freedams moved to the middle east

I'm not sure I follow, can you please elaborate?

EDIT: Never mind, I get you now!! My bad...

Tony EH · 12-01-2020 01:37PM

sxt wrote: »

Admiral William Halsey, commander of the U.S. Third Fleet,

"the first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment." The Japanese, he noted, had "put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before" the
bomb was used.

the_syco wrote: »

What a complete f**king moron. Not only were they ready to fight until the last man, they had tanks in kilometres of underground tunnels waiting for the invasion.

Leahy was absolutely correct. As was Leo Szilard and many others who petitioned Truman to not use the bomb.

Japan was finished and completely blockaded. Their surrender was inevitable before the first bomb even fell. After the war, an American commission concluded that they had, at best, a few more months to hold out.

As for Operation Downfall, it was a complete non-starter. The fact is, the Americans didn't need to invade. Japan was cut off and the Suzuki government were looking for a way to end the war. It was really only Minister Anami who was for continuing the war in its present form. The rest of the cabinet were coinciding with Hirohito's desire to seek peace and their only sticking point was the retention of the Emperor after surrender, which was something that the Americans were willing to do. However they never bothered telling the Japanese that as they were intent on testing their new weapon on virgin cities instead.

wakka12 · 12-01-2020 04:23PM

partyguinness wrote: »

It is widely accepted that dropping the nukes on Japan was not solely about ending the war with Japan.

It was used by the US to demonstrate to the rest of the world (well the Russians really) that they had nukes.

Sure so what if 200-300k civilians get incinerated and without warning- without doubt two of the single greatest wartime atrocities committed in human history.

Good old Uncle Sam.

The greatest ,really? I'd rather be instantly incinerated instanntly by a bomb than a slow gruelling death by starvation or freezing or torture like the millions of russians in the gulags. I dont understand why the US seems to always bare the brunt of blame in these type of discussions, dozens of countries committed unfathomable acts of atrocity throughout the war easily on par with the American bombings of Japan or worse. How is it any worse than the British bombing of Dresden, a city of no strategic or military value teeming with refugees , targeted at the very end of the war with German surrender imminent and resulting in at least 25k deaths

Tony EH · 12-01-2020 04:32PM

^

If you were "lucky", you were incinerated. But, if you were like the vast majority of people, you died an extremely slow and painful death from radiation poisoning, where you endured unimaginable suffering as your body's organs deteriorated and gradually shut down.

The further distance one was away from the central blast, but still within the zone of its influence, meant that that suffering was spent over a longer amount of time, before you eventually and mercifully died.

And if you were even "luckier" and you managed to live through it, there was a high change that your children would die instead. Or that they would be born with such crippling deformities and defects that it would have been better if they had.

maninasia · 12-01-2020 04:44PM

Tony EH wrote: »

^

If you were "lucky", you were incinerated. But, if you were like the vast majority of people, you died an extremely slow and painful death from radiation poisoning, where you endured unimaginable suffering as your body's organs deteriorated and gradually shut down.

The further distance one was away from the central blast, but still within the zone of its influence, meant that that suffering was spent over a longer amount of time, before you eventually and mercifully died.

And if you were even "luckier" and you managed to live through it, there was a high change that your children would die instead. Or that they would be born with such crippling deformities and defects that it would have been better if they had.

Japan itself was an extreme terrorist nation at the time. Anybody familiar with what they did in China would know that. Not that I'm excusing the atomic bombing.

Oh yeah , as his name came up earlier, General MacArthur actually was prepared to use nukes against China /NK during the Korean War, and he was relieved of his command partly due to tensions around that.

Tony EH · 12-01-2020 05:04PM

Terry Wogan wrote: »

Maybe the Japs should not have started a war with a much bigger opponent?

I'm sure the pows and sex slaves were crying tears over those roasted Japs.

Charming. Your racism is exceeded only by your stupidity.

The civilians that were "roasted" didn't start any wars.

Tony EH · 12-01-2020 05:17PM

maninasia wrote: »

Oh yeah , as his name came up earlier, General MacArthur actually was prepared to use nukes against China /NK during the Korean War, and he was relieved of his command partly due to tensions around that.

McArthur was relieved for a number of reasons. The primary one being that he and Truman just didn't get along.

McArthur's public utterances too became increasingly annoying for Truman and Douglas's love of the limelight was proving somewhat detrimental to what America was hoping to achieve in their war.

As for his suggestion that an atomic option should be used against Korea, he wasn't the only one who was putting that forward and it's difficult to know how serious he was. Besides, the atomic option was always on the cards anyway, by virtue of the fact that it was part of America's arsenal.

Truman later tried to pass the buck onto McArthur as he would later claim that such decisions were in the hands of the military. But, that doesn't sound completely convincing, as he was the leader of the Country and the final say, as it was in 1945, rested with him. So, his attempts to absolve himself of any decision making on such matters ring rather hollow.

But, I think that Harry Truman always regretted his decision to use the bomb on Japan, no matter how he tried to justify it. It dogged him and made him acutely aware of just how out of control things were getting with regards to such powerful weaponry.

12-01-2020 06:32PM

Terry Wogan wrote: »

The Japs behaved like animals in the territories they occupied. They're still hated by the rest of Asia today.

Just as the Vietnamese hate the Chinese. The Thai hate Cambodians. etc etc. History. Asian peoples are far more in touch with their historical hatreds, and the Japanese were feared long before WW2.

The Americans utterly wrecked them and rebuilt them as a civilised people. They should be eternally grateful the Americans didn't nuke every one of their cities and return them to the stone age.

Absolute rubbish. They were a civilised nation before, and during WW2. They're an ancient civilisation ffs, and have managed to retain their culture far better than most other nations. Their government was overthrown by the military, and the population was indoctrinated by them. You really should read some history books on the subject before casting stones. Especially, since a large portion of their population never encountered foreigners until the end of the war.

Japanese conscript troops behaved horribly, as did some of their officer class. It tends to happen when a people believe themselves to be far superior... or inferior to the people the conquer. You'll see similar behavior by the Russians during WW2. Hell, you should take a look at the rape statistics by Allied (in particular the French) forces after the Normandy landings. Or the treatment of collaborators (in particular females) by allied forces...

But then you're applying western standards of conduct to Asian people, who have/had a different perspective of what was allowed in war. Even then, were we to ignore that, the Allies throughout the war engaged in practices that would have had them up as war criminals had they lost the war. The victors decide what is allowable, and generally, ignore their own transgressions. I never really understand the logic in taking morality from this age, and applying it to, first, a very different time, and second, applying western morality to peoples who were not western.

The dropping of the nukes ended the pacific war. That's it. It was a sound military decision.... but your glee and enthusiasm for killing millions of people is genuinely disgusting.

12-01-2020 07:29PM

Terry Wogan wrote: »

My heart bleeds Klaz.

:rolleyes:

I'll say it again, don't start a fight with a guy much bigger than you.

Really? There are many examples throughout history which proves you to be incorrect.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 12-01-2020 07:50PM

partyguinness wrote: »

Then again I was in Peru years ago and they despise the Spanish.

A lot of Latin Americans complain about the Spanish despite being almost entirely of Spanish descent.

12-01-2020 08:17PM

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

A lot of Latin Americans complain about the Spanish despite being almost entirely of Spanish descent.

There's a lot of complaining because of the harsh oppression and corruption with the administration of their provinces. As for being almost entirely of Spanish descent, there are many examples of rape being common towards the poor, indentured or slave 'classes'.

partyguinness · 13-01-2020 11:21AM

wakka12 wrote: »

The greatest ,really? I'd rather be instantly incinerated instanntly by a bomb than a slow gruelling death by starvation or freezing or torture like the millions of russians in the gulags. I dont understand why the US seems to always bare the brunt of blame in these type of discussions, dozens of countries committed unfathomable acts of atrocity throughout the war easily on par with the American bombings of Japan or worse. How is it any worse than the British bombing of Dresden, a city of no strategic or military value teeming with refugees , targeted at the very end of the war with German surrender imminent and resulting in at least 25k deaths

You are quite right about Dresden and the Gulags. I guess in the context of this thread we are focusing on the US.

Plus Japan, Russia or even the UK do not go around the world starting the wars and acting like the world police under false pretenses.

maninasia · 13-01-2020 01:08PM

***But then you're applying western standards of conduct to Asian people, who have/had a different perspective of what was allowed in war***

How are Asian countries supposed to have a 'different perspective'?

Japan were doing biological warfare xperiments in China and routinely hacking limbs off of soldiers and civilians, beheadings , killing women and babies, they also used chemical warfare in Taiwan against the Aborigines. They deserve huge condemnation for the war crimes they committed well before WWII, which was just a continuation of 'business as usual . Of course they were hated in Korea ad well. Other Asian countries did not behave that way.

FortuneChip · 13-01-2020 01:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You can understand them leaving Vatican City alone.

Damn queues...

Tony EH · 13-01-2020 04:26PM

maninasia wrote: »

***But then you're applying western standards of conduct to Asian people, who have/had a different perspective of what was allowed in war***

How are Asian countries supposed to have a 'different perspective'?

Japan were doing biological warfare xperiments in China and routinely hacking limbs off of soldiers and civilians, beheadings , killing women and babies, they also used chemical warfare in Taiwan against the Aborigines. They deserve huge condemnation for the war crimes they committed well before WWII, which was just a continuation of 'business as usual . Of course they were hated in Korea ad well. Other Asian countries did not behave that way.

What other Asian wars do you know about?

13-01-2020 04:55PM

maninasia wrote: »

***But then you're applying western standards of conduct to Asian people, who have/had a different perspective of what was allowed in war***

First off, Quote me if you want me to notice and respond to posts. It's actually easier that putting lots of ****

How are Asian countries supposed to have a 'different perspective'?

Different historical development of morality and philosophy along with the perception on the value of human life.... Same with their concept of what war entailed, how to engage in war, and what came after the war. There are some rather huge differences in thought between Western ideas, and Eastern ideas. Especially when you factor in the way that western ideas changed after the introduction of technology which was often absent from Asian warfare.

Japan were doing biological warfare xperiments in China and routinely hacking limbs off of soldiers and civilians, beheadings , killing women and babies, they also used chemical warfare in Taiwan against the Aborigines. They deserve huge condemnation for the war crimes they committed well before WWII, which was just a continuation of 'business as usual . Of course they were hated in Korea ad well. Other Asian countries did not behave that way.

Ahh well, when you want to be so selective the way you're doing its easy to project Japan to the top. Have you ever read anything about what the Chinese did to Japanese civilians in China after the surrender of Japanese forces? No doubt you'll excuse such behavior as being acceptable because of what the Japanese did. And the Japanese did receive condemnation (and executions) for their actions of their troops or leadership immediately after the war. In many ways, more than the Germans did, considering the numbers of German scientists and officers who were simply taken away by US intelligence services.

Your application of morality is incredibly biased.

Oh, and can I get a linky for these biological warfare experiments? Although, I would suggest that you take a look at where the US tested their A-Bombs/H-Bombs, and their research into the effects of radiation on a civilian population... (who were not the enemy btw) and who are still suffering the effects of those experiments as a native people.

Tony EH · 13-01-2020 05:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh well, when you want to be so selective the way you're doing its easy to project Japan to the top. Have you ever read anything about what the Chinese did to Japanese civilians in China after the surrender of Japanese forces? No doubt you'll excuse such behavior as being acceptable because of what the Japanese did. And the Japanese did receive condemnation (and executions) for their actions of their troops or leadership immediately after the war. In many ways, more than the Germans did, considering the numbers of German scientists and officers who were simply taken away by US intelligence services.

Your application of morality is incredibly biased.

It's hardly surprising that people will have such opinions when the propaganda against Japan was so effective before, during and after the war. The Japanese were reduced to the status of animals. Slant eyed yellow monsters that were the antithesis to the upstanding American everyman. US propaganda against the Japanese is second only to the German propaganda about Jews.

And real wartime atrocity not withstanding, the propaganda worked terribly well. Most people today wouldn't even question the most outrageous claim against Japan in WWII and will still view them in a thoroughly dehumanised and racist fashion without any pause for thought whatsoever.

It's quite remarkable.

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh, and can I get a linky for these biological warfare experiments? Although, I would suggest that you take a look at where the US tested their A-Bombs/H-Bombs, and their research into the effects of radiation on a civilian population... (who were not the enemy btw) and who are still suffering the effects of those experiments as a native people.

The poster is more than likely referring to Unit 731. One of the go-tos in these conversations.

13-01-2020 11:23PM

Tony EH wrote: »

It's hardly surprising that people will have such opinions when the propaganda against Japan was so effective before, during and after the war.

I live in China, and have traveled throughout Asia. Every day, I hear propaganda about Japan. Not quite as effective as Hollywood and British movies though.

The Japanese were reduced to the status of animals. Slant eyed yellow monsters that were the antithesis to the upstanding American everyman. US propaganda against the Japanese is second only to the German propaganda about Jews.

And real wartime atrocity not withstanding, the propaganda worked terribly well. Most people today wouldn't even question the most outrageous claim against Japan in WWII and will still view them in a thoroughly dehumanised and racist fashion without any pause for thought whatsoever.

It's quite remarkable.

The poster is more than likely referring to Unit 731. One of the go-tos in these conversations.

Cheers. Good points.

hatrickpatrick · 14-01-2020 12:05AM

Yes, but I don't think that's anything to do with American culture or American people being any more f*cked up towards their fellow humans than any other race - they have, through historical happenstance, the power to be the biggest bullies on the planet, ergo they are the biggest bullies on the planet. Any other time in history a nation has had the power to be the biggest bullies on the planet, they have indeed gone on to become the biggest bullies on the planet.

Sadly, America isn't the problem - human nature is the problem. And as long as we perpetuate an economic and societal hierarchy which ultimately rewards people and groups who are willing to sh!t all over their fellow humans in their quest to reach the top, this will continue to be the case.

IAMAMORON · 14-01-2020 12:20AM

The NSA are reading and monitoring this thread. Don't say I never told you.

I hear the Stasi wouldn't keep up with them. I hope you are all using VPN's, for your own safety.

I love the United States of America. It is bestest country in the whole wide world. They protect all our freedoms, God bless them.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 14-01-2020 12:27AM

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a lot of complaining because of the harsh oppression and corruption with the administration of their provinces. As for being almost entirely of Spanish descent, there are many examples of rape being common towards the poor, indentured or slave 'classes'.

It depends on where they're from. Some regions are almost entirely white.

Is the U.S.A. the most extreme terrorist nation?

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