Februdairy to Meaty March

TooOldBoots · 08-01-2020 08:40PM #1

Its 2020,
Subway have just released vegan version of the Meatball Marinara
Vegan marinara

SubwayMeme.jpg?zoom=2.625&resize=382%2C424&ssl=1

Micky d's, KFC, Burger King all have similar offerings on the way.
I originally thought that it would take a 100 years or more before meat was gone from our diets. But I think it's happening a lot sooner. The whole movement is gaining traction and investment.
How can Irish farming embrace this when we are more or less 90-100% grassland farming. To me the future isn't bright at all

Lady Haywire · 08-01-2020 08:46PM

I noticed ads previos to this, got one today- both because I found the actual meat marinara was too filling & just to see what it was like.
My opinion- crap basically. Not as fulfilling or tasty as the veggie patty (which is my main go to) Too crumply, too dry.

I'm sure it's for someone, just not me.

yosemitesam1 · 08-01-2020 08:59PM

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Its 2020,
Subway have just released vegan version of the Meatball Marinara
Vegan marinara

Micky d's, KFC, Burger King all have similar offerings on the way.
I originally thought that it would take a 100 years or more before meat was gone from our diets. But I think it's happening a lot sooner. The whole movement is gaining traction and investment.
How can Irish farming embrace this when we are more or less 90-100% grassland farming. To me the future isn't bright at all

Beef will be the health food of the future, all this plant based bs will only be able to be pushed so far before the health claims are found out as totally wrong and the negative effects of plant based diets become apparent

Say my name · 08-01-2020 09:05PM

People got hooked on tobacco because of it's addictiveness and peer pressure of wanting to fit in. It took a while for the health problems to surface to swing the other way.

This will be no different.

Sheep have to always follow something.

Imagine turning away from a diet that allowed this species to evolve and use tools and become what we are. There's no telling people.

Dinzee Conlee · 08-01-2020 09:18PM

Will near always have some market?

Similar to organic having a market - some people are willing to pay more for a similar product, albeit done differently.
I see meat always being in demand, by some people...

Now, this does mean that the higher end of the market will be in demand, chasing lower end markets for meat (which we seem to do) might not be the best strategy...

But, I’m also terrible at calling the future

gozunda · 08-01-2020 09:22PM

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Its 2020,
...
Micky d's, KFC, Burger King all have similar offerings on the way.
I originally thought that it would take a 100 years or more before meat was gone from our diets. But I think it's happening a lot sooner. The whole movement is gaining traction and investment.
How can Irish farming embrace this when we are more or less 90-100% grassland farming. To me the future isn't bright at all

That's not food - its highly processed crap.

Bizarre that not long ago the whole vegan thing was being pushed as a healthy wholefood diet - now its look at all this lovely procesed crap made with additives and god knows what.

A bit odd no ?

Fads go in cycles. This one is busted ...

little bit of help · 08-01-2020 09:30PM

Just read in the paper the Burger King meatless burger isn't suitable for vegetarians or vegans as it is cooked in the same grill/fryer as the meat ones.

Reckon a lot of teenagers w ho go vegan/vegetarian now will suffer down the road as this food isn't really healthy at all. Over processed and full of crap. I like the odd veg quarter pounder but at least I can recognise the chopped up veg in it!

Say my name · 08-01-2020 09:35PM

I was nearly going to call veganism for what it is a religion and I was nearly going to drop the veganism name for Hinduism.

But lucky I didn't as veganism is more extreme than Hinduism.
Anyway as ye were.

whelan2 · 08-01-2020 09:36PM

little bit of help wrote: »

Just read in the paper the Burger King meatless burger isn't suitable for vegetarians or vegans as it is cooked in the same grill/fryer as the meat ones.

Reckon a lot of teenagers w ho go vegan/vegetarian now will suffer down the road as this food isn't really healthy at all. Over processed and full of crap. I like the odd veg quarter pounder but at least I can recognise the chopped up veg in it!

Was just going to say this. Subway etc all the other food is prepared the same way. Ha remember a salad burger years ago was so cool

TooOldBoots · 09-01-2020 12:06AM

I think theres more to it than just a fad. Plus it seems that the media are pushing an anti meat agenda too. Ether way it looks here to stay

gozunda · 09-01-2020 12:35AM

TooOldBoots wrote: »

I think theres more to it than just a fad. Plus it seems that the media are pushing an anti meat agenda too. Ether way it looks here to stay

Yeah like margarine was once the greatest thing since sliced bread - now butter is back on the menu.

https://thetakeout.com/i-can-believe-it-s-not-butter-the-rise-and-fall-of-mar-1821824760

Paid for feature Newspapers - such as the Guardian etc don't really lend the plant food industry promotion of their highly processed products any credence tbh.

Eitherway it's still highly processed glupe...

_Brian · 09-01-2020 11:13AM

gozunda wrote: »

That's not food - its highly processed crap.

Bizarre that not long ago the whole vegan thing was being pushed as a healthy wholefood diet - now its look at all this lovely procesed crap made with additives and god knows what.

A bit odd no ?

Fads go in cycles. This one is busted ...

It’s being monitised by the multinationals. Highly processed fancy packaged muck is the way they muscle in on this ideology to suck money out of it.

In a small way I feel sorry for Vegans, their ideology has been hijacked, pumped up on false science reports paid for by vested interests, but they can’t see it, they think their time has come, but the stark truth is they are being conned.

It’s a highly profitable junk food based ideology now, mashed up, mixed and fermented in vats in industrial estates using ingredients with no known history or research into long term consumption effects.

I know one person since they became an ethical vegan maybe 35years ago. She is hopping mad at the turn to processed foods rather than straight foods cooked from ingredients that the vegan movement once stood for.

Xcellor · 09-01-2020 11:58AM

_Brian wrote: »

It’s being monitised by the multinationals. Highly processed fancy packaged muck is the way they muscle in on this ideology to suck money out of it.

In a small way I feel sorry for Vegans, their ideology has been hijacked, pumped up on false science reports paid for by vested interests, but they can’t see it, they think their time has come, but the stark truth is they are being conned.

It’s a highly profitable junk food based ideology now, mashed up, mixed and fermented in vats in industrial estates using ingredients with no known history or research into long term consumption effects.

I know one person since they became an ethical vegan maybe 35years ago. She is hopping mad at the turn to processed foods rather than straight foods cooked from ingredients that the vegan movement once stood for.

I think it's about choice. There was zero choice for processed muck for those eating plant based diets. Now there's processed muck. Progress eh?

A vegan diet made up this or a traditional diet made up of meat based/dairy is equally as bad. McChicken or Mc Chickenless

There is evidence that a whole food plant based diet is beneficial and even health promoting this is very different from a plant based diet full of this type of stuff.

_Brian · 09-01-2020 12:07PM

Xcellor wrote: »

I think it's about choice. There was zero choice for processed muck for those eating plant based diets. Now there's processed muck. Progress eh?

A vegan diet made up this or a traditional diet made up of meat based/dairy is equally as bad. McChicken or Mc Chickenless

There is evidence that a whole food plant based diet is beneficial and even health promoting this is very different from a plant based diet full of this type of stuff.

Nobody should be thinking processed foods can make up a significant portion of their diet and it be a healthy choice, that goes for all sides of the meat/meat free debate.

If my food is going to be processed I’d opt to do the processing myself, or know the person personally who did it.

My big problem is adding more hyper processed foods and then shouting about how it’s such a healthy choice, this is nothing but marketing spin and lies by manufacturers to sell more produce.

If humans aren’t eating a massively wide range of foods which are near all cooked from raw ingredients then their diet isn’t healthy.

Xcellor · 09-01-2020 12:12PM

_Brian wrote: »

Nobody should be thinking processed foods can make up a significant portion of their diet and it be a healthy choice, that goes for all sides of the meat/meat free debate.

If my food is going to be processed I’d opt to do the processing myself, or know the person personally who did it.

My big problem is adding more hyper processed foods and then shouting about how it’s such a healthy choice, this is nothing but marketing spin and lies by manufacturers to sell more produce.

If humans aren’t eating a massively wide range of foods which are near all cooked from raw ingredients then their diet isn’t healthy.

I agree. But to be honest I think it's more the media that try and say vegan is automatically assumed to be healthy. It can be - very easily, without the need for any processed food. An impossible burger or whatever is supposed to taste like a regular beef patty. It's fatty and has salt etc it's not a side salad by any means.

If you take a real veggie burger which is just mushed up veggies and beans . It's nothing like a burger as most people are used to..

_Brian · 09-01-2020 12:18PM

Xcellor wrote: »

I agree. But to be honest I think it's more the media that try and say vegan is automatically assumed to be healthy. It can be - very easily, without the need for any processed food. An impossible burger or whatever is supposed to taste like a regular beef patty. It's fatty and has salt etc it's not a side salad by any means.

If you take a real veggie burger which is just mushed up veggies and beans . It's nothing like a burger as most people are used to..

Not just a media thing.
All over social media there is hype from individuals about the wonderful range of hyper processed vegan foods now available amd how they are a great healthy choice, while being environmentally friendly. Produced in foreign countries in industrial processes from products that themselves are not environmentally friendly to farm or manufacture.

It really is a case of the emperors new clothes. Everyone is saying they are great because either that suits s their doctrine or because some silly celeb says so. They haven’t yet woken up to the muck they are eating and endorsing nor the damage it will do to them and the environment.

And I’m not saying all meat or dairy products are good. Much is intensively farmed to the detriment of the environment and animal welfare, it’s sometimes processed into god awful foods loaded with fats and salts. I think if American feedlots making ground beef, of a dairy farm in New York with 5000 cows fed on bums and bread waste and expected lifetime of 3 years. These are all wrong. But because these are wrong doesn’t mean meat and dairy products are all bad. They are an essential part of the human diet in their correct forms and proportions. Particularly Irish farming systems keep animals at pasture for long periods, more needs to be done for poultry and pig farms to move animals out with sky above them and soil below them.

I really take an impartial view and don’t let my love for farming taint my view, farming has problems, problems that can be solved and going by current trends they are being solved. Shortening supply chains, consumers seeking less intensive farming produce.

Xcellor · 09-01-2020 02:11PM

_Brian wrote: »

Not just a media thing.
All over social media there is hype from individuals about the wonderful range of hyper processed vegan foods now available amd how they are a great healthy choice, while being environmentally friendly. Produced in foreign countries in industrial processes from products that themselves are not environmentally friendly to farm or manufacture.

It really is a case of the emperors new clothes. Everyone is saying they are great because either that suits s their doctrine or because some silly celeb says so. They haven’t yet woken up to the muck they are eating and endorsing nor the damage it will do to them and the environment.

And I’m not saying all meat or dairy products are good. Much is intensively farmed to the detriment of the environment and animal welfare, it’s sometimes processed into god awful foods loaded with fats and salts. I think if American feedlots making ground beef, of a dairy farm in New York with 5000 cows fed on bums and bread waste and expected lifetime of 3 years. These are all wrong. But because these are wrong doesn’t mean meat and dairy products are all bad. They are an essential part of the human diet in their correct forms and proportions. Particularly Irish farming systems keep animals at pasture for long periods, more needs to be done for poultry and pig farms to move animals out with sky above them and soil below them.

I really take an impartial view and don’t let my love for farming taint my view, farming has problems, problems that can be solved and going by current trends they are being solved. Shortening supply chains, consumers seeking less intensive farming produce.

I can agree the less processing food undergoes the more nutritious it is - whole foods with the least amount of refinement as possible.

I don't agree that animal products are an essential part of the human diet though. If they were essential vegetarians and vegans would be dying out but they aren't. The evidence is strong enough that exclusively plant based diets are so healthy they are endorsed by dieticians + health bodies globally.

So while meat and dairy can form part of a balanced diet they aren't required to be healthy.

_Brian · 09-01-2020 03:54PM

Xcellor wrote: »

I can agree the less processing food undergoes the more nutritious it is - whole foods with the least amount of refinement as possible.

I don't agree that animal products are an essential part of the human diet though. If they were essential vegetarians and vegans would be dying out but they aren't. The evidence is strong enough that exclusively plant based diets are so healthy they are endorsed by dieticians + health bodies globally.

So while meat and dairy can form part of a balanced diet they aren't required to be healthy.

I’ll respectfully disagree.
Speaking to nutritionist on this and bioavailability of protein for example is found essentially nowhere in plants like it is in animal products. It’s what the human digestive system evolved to eat and still our most complete source.

I’m Not saying you can’t produce a vegan funded “scientific report” supporting otherwise. I appreciate vegans are happy to compromise on these issues because of their belief system, it would actually add more credibility to their position if they acknowledged that and the need to supplement the likes of B12 because their chosen restrictive diet can’t provide it.

gozunda · 09-01-2020 06:10PM

Xcellor wrote: »

I think it's about choice. There was zero choice for processed muck for those eating plant based diets. Now there's processed muck. Progress eh?

A vegan diet made up this or a traditional diet made up of meat based/dairy is equally as bad. McChicken or Mc Chickenless

There is evidence that a whole food plant based diet is beneficial and even health promoting this is very different from a plant based diet full of this type of stuff

A traditional balanced healthy diet of meat, dairy, vegetables etc remains very much a recommended diet. It is not comparable to any diet - plant based or otherwise full of these highly processed products.

And unfortunately it seems thats what many of these companies are pushing. I would hope that vegans as much as those who enjoy a traditional balanced diet would stand against this extreme industrialisation of food.

09-01-2020 07:20PM

gozunda wrote: »

A traditional balanced healthy diet of meat, dairy, vegetables etc remains very much a recommended diet. It is not comparable to any diet - plant based or otherwise full of these highly processed products.

And unfortunately it seems thats what many of these companies are pushing. I would hope that vegans as much as those who enjoy a traditional balanced diet would stand against this extreme industrialisation of food.

You can be plant based and avoid processed foods easily enough.

In terms of a balanced diet the updated food pyramid would put red meat just below sweats and treats. Milk and cheese are nutritious but surely organic options there are best using purely grass based systems. A lot of dairy in Ireland is supplemented with meal containing gm soya based meal from South America.

I think people should be given access to cleaner produce marketed accordingly. Be it organic meat, dairy or alternative options.

Vegan burgers that don't contain flavour enhancers or msg etc aren't processed muck.

The fast food vegan burger has been proven to contain more salt etc. But fast food is muck regardless of the type.

I see a lot of processed muck in the freezer ailse of the supermarket with frozen beef burgers that have flavour enhancers etc.

_Brian · 09-01-2020 07:34PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You can be plant based and avoid processed foods easily enough.

In terms of a balanced diet the updated food pyramid would put red meat just below sweats and treats. Milk and cheese are nutritious but surely organic options there are best using purely grass based systems. A lot of dairy in Ireland is supplemented with meal containing gm soya based meal from South America.

I think people should be given access to cleaner produce marketed accordingly. Be it organic meat, dairy or alternative options.

Vegan burgers that don't contain flavour enhancers or msg etc aren't processed muck.

The fast food vegan burger has been proven to contain more salt etc. But fast food is muck regardless of the type.

I see a lot of processed muck in the freezer ailse of the supermarket with frozen beef burgers that have flavour enhancers etc.

You criticise farmers for feeding gm soy to cows.
But not the fake burgers for using gm soy to feed to people.

Much of the soy fed to animals is byproduct of human food processes.

09-01-2020 07:51PM

_Brian wrote: »

You criticise farmers for feeding gm soy to cows.
But not the fake burgers for using gm soy to feed to people.

Much of the soy fed to animals is byproduct of human food processes.

I never mentioned fake burgers, what ever they are.

For me meat and dairy coming out of Ireland fed on grass and conentrates (not imported from South America) from Ireland should fetch a premium.

Meat and diary fed on soya and maize from the other side of the world should not receive this label.

emaherx · 09-01-2020 08:34PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I never mentioned fake burgers, what ever they are.

For me meat and dairy coming out of Ireland fed on grass and conentrates (not imported from South America) from Ireland should fetch a premium.

Meat and diary fed on soya and maize from the other side of the world should not receive this label.

Contrary to popular belife very little of the diet of beef or dairy cows actually comes from soya from South America. Cattle here are more than 80% grass fed, most imported soya comes from US but that doesn't even make up all imported ingredients for concentrates as most comes from UK France and Eastern Europe as well as grown here in Ireland and by the time all the pigs and poultry are fed the percentage gm soy in cattle feed is fairly low.

“It is estimated that 96% of the diet on a fresh matter basis and 82% on a dry matter basis of the typical Irish cow diet comes from forage,”

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/better-milk-from-our-96-grass-fed-irish-cows-882529.html

yosemitesam1 · 09-01-2020 08:42PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In terms of a balanced diet the updated food pyramid would put red meat just below sweats and treats. Milk and cheese are nutritious but surely organic options there are best using purely grass based systems.

It's perfectly possible to live 100% off of meat and dairy with nothing else and be in the best of health

gozunda · 09-01-2020 08:51PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You can be plant based and avoid processed foods easily enough.

In terms of a balanced diet the updated food pyramid would put red meat just below sweats and treats. Milk and cheese are nutritious but surely organic options there are best using purely grass based systems. A lot of dairy in Ireland is supplemented with meal containing gm soya based meal from South America.
I think people should be given access to cleaner produce marketed accordingly. Be it organic meat, dairy or alternative options.
Vegan burgers that don't contain flavour enhancers or msg etc aren't processed muck.
The fast food vegan burger has been proven to contain more salt etc. But fast food is muck regardless of the type. I see a lot of processed muck in the freezer ailse of the supermarket with frozen beef burgers that have flavour enhancers etc.

I didnt say they couldnt be. But it's certainly not a given.

The problem with the plant food industry atm is that highly processed products are being pushed as an alternative to healthy whole foods such as meat, dairy etc.

This is the current food pyramid used here and you will notice that meat etc has a recommended 2 servings a day whilst 'sweets and treats' are at the most extreme end of the pyramid at just one or two servings a week. Quite a difference! Certainly not 'just below' ...

https://www.safefood.eu/SafeFood/media/SafeFoodLibrary/Images/Healthy Eating/Food_Diet/Food_pyramid_transp_landscape_640.gif?ext=.gif

You might also want to check where the bulk of soya meal and husks (left overs from the soy oil industry interestingly enough) come from btw.

I presume you are vegan?

cj maxx · 09-01-2020 09:06PM

thats it, a fad. I don't eat much meat, if at all, because it's supposedly better for my health. ( auto- immune condition) but this processed sh1te is worse.

Xcellor · 09-01-2020 09:07PM

_Brian wrote: »

I’ll respectfully disagree.
Speaking to nutritionist on this and bioavailability of protein for example is found essentially nowhere in plants like it is in animal products. It’s what the human digestive system evolved to eat and still our most complete source.

I’m Not saying you can’t produce a vegan funded “scientific report” supporting otherwise. I appreciate vegans are happy to compromise on these issues because of their belief system, it would actually add more credibility to their position if they acknowledged that and the need to supplement the likes of B12 because their chosen restrictive diet can’t provide it.

The American , Australian and British dietetic organizations representing literally thousands of professionals have all stated a vegan diet can give you all the nutrients you require. The NHS has likewise. The evidence is overwhelming.

A b12 supplement should be taken as even people who eat animal products can be low on this. Live stock can even be dificient so they also have supplements.
https://www.agridirect.ie/product/vitamin-b12-cobalt

It remains that a whole food plant based diet is entirely healthy and contains everything required to sustain humans.

While I accept that a diet which contains animal proteins can also be healthy when planned correctly, the same is true of a vegan diet.

emaherx · 09-01-2020 09:14PM

Xcellor wrote: »

The American , Australian and British dietetic organizations representing literally thousands of professionals have all stated a vegan diet can give you all the nutrients you require. The NHS has likewise. The evidence is overwhelming.

A b12 supplement should be taken as even people who eat animal products can be low on this. Live stock can even be dificient so they also have supplements.
https://www.agridirect.ie/product/vitamin-b12-cobalt

It remains that a whole food plant based diet is entirely healthy and contains everything required to sustain humans.

While I accept that a diet which contains animal proteins can also be healthy when planned correctly, the same is true of a vegan diet.

It's funny every one of those organizations say they don't recommend cutting out meat and dairy. Granted they all say it is possible to be healthy on an all plant diet if you feel the need for your own ethical reasons.

yosemitesam1 · 09-01-2020 09:33PM

Xcellor wrote: »

The American , Australian and British dietetic organizations representing literally thousands of professionals have all stated a vegan diet can give you all the nutrients you require. The NHS has likewise. The evidence is overwhelming.

A b12 supplement should be taken as even people who eat animal products can be low on this. Live stock can even be dificient so they also have supplements.
https://www.agridirect.ie/product/vitamin-b12-cobalt

It remains that a whole food plant based diet is entirely healthy and contains everything required to sustain humans.

While I accept that a diet which contains animal proteins can also be healthy when planned correctly, the same is true of a vegan diet.

Type 2 diabetes can be eradicated by moving people from diet containing plant food to entirely animal based with no plant based food at all

Xcellor · 09-01-2020 10:02PM

emaherx wrote: »

It's funny every one of those organizations say they don't recommend cutting out meat and dairy. Granted they all say it is possible to be healthy on an all plant diet if you feel the need for your own ethical reasons.

They don't need to. A diet correctly planned which contains animal protein can be healthy.

I don't believe ethics are a guiding factor for nutritionists. It's the science, blood works, health outcomes that determine this.

The statements go as far as saying the diet is healthful and reduces the risk of certain diseases.

Xcellor · 09-01-2020 10:08PM

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Type 2 diabetes can be eradicated by moving people from diet containing plant food to entirely animal based with no plant based food at all

I think you have been misinformed. The opposite is true.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466941/

Whole food plant based diets have been shown to prevent, treat and reverse this condition.

Februdairy to Meaty March

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