Ulster vs Munster, Fri 3 Jan, 7:35pm, Eir

Richie_Rich89 · 04-01-2020 01:48PM

yerrahbah wrote: »

Had a look back to hon here when the RWC squad was announced

Very few people questioning the decision not to bring Cooney

It was all about bringing McGrath over Marmion and Kleyn over Toner

People had probably just accepted that Schmidt wasn't a fan so they knew it was likely Cooney wouldn't be selected. In the 6N, when Murray was performing awfully, Cooney still only got a few minutes off the bench. It was pretty obvious he wasn't in Schmidt's plans, so his omission didn't come as a shock.

Richie_Rich89 · 04-01-2020 01:53PM

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Any Ulster fan will be able to tell you that Cooney's been no better this year than last.
He had been absolutely immense for us since he came here.

The same goes for McCloskey, the last few years.

Ulster as a team are playing much better, that's the big change this year I think. You could see it starting last year (should have beaten Leinster in the QF for example) but they've pushed on again.

A lot / most of that credit must go to the pack, knew our tight 5 should have had the winning last night but the back row as well were just superb.
That's been our weakness since about 2013.

It's interesting to hear McFarland talk about how playing as a collective allows them to show greater physicality. Away to Harlequins they reminded me of Clermont. Just wave after wave of big powerful runners, and a varied passing game as well. It's pretty impressive what McFarland's done. He looks like a future Ireland coach.

Need to back it up away in France next weekend now.

Sinbad_NI · 04-01-2020 02:07PM

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

It's interesting to hear McFarland talk about how playing as a collective allows them to show greater physicality. Away to Harlequins they reminded me of Clermont. Just wave after wave of big powerful runners, and a varied passing game as well. It's pretty impressive what McFarland's done. He looks like a future Ireland coach.

Need to back it up away in France next weekend now.

Agree, Dan has had a great impact, along with key signings it has to be said.

Our lack of BPs make next week a very big ask to top the group.

Granny15 · 04-01-2020 02:20PM

One thing I picked up on looking at tries from last night on Cooney he supports the ball carriers out wide after he’s done his job of passing from ruck. You never see Murray picking up a support pass in open play and finishing off a move whereas Cooney doesn’t give up and follows through in his support play and finishes team tries. Just a little difference that shows how Cooney has extras to his game that Murray doesn’t have

Faugheen · 04-01-2020 02:25PM

Granny15 wrote: »

One thing I picked up on looking at tries from last night on Cooney he supports the ball carriers out wide after he’s done his job of passing from ruck. You never see Murray picking up a support pass in open play and finishing off a move whereas Cooney doesn’t give up and follows through in his support play and finishes team tries. Just a little difference that shows how Cooney has extras to his game that Murray doesn’t have

This is just nonsense. To say Murray doesn’t offer support in open play is just complete and utter lies.

This isn’t me saying Murray is better than Cooney but you are just making up sh*te here.

Granny15 · 04-01-2020 02:31PM

Faugheen wrote: »

This is just nonsense. To say Murray doesn’t offer support in open play is just complete and utter lies.

This isn’t me saying Murray is better than Cooney but you are just making up sh*te here.

Why do you think I would deliberately make up a pile of rubbish? I’m a Leinster supporter but have nothing against Murray. It’s a minor difference I have noticed between the two players and yes I would say Cooney has finished off many more tries than Murray by support play.

How many tries has Cooney finished off in open play this season? How many has Murray done in his career? I’d wager there’s a gulf in difference in those stats

Faugheen · 04-01-2020 02:36PM

Granny15 wrote: »

Why do you think I would deliberately make up a pile of rubbish? I’m a Leinster supporter but have nothing against Murray. It’s a minor difference I have noticed between the two players and yes I would say Cooney has finished off many more tries than Murray by support play.

How many tries has Cooney finished off in open play this season? How many has Murray done in his career? I’d wager there’s a gulf in difference in those stats

So how can you be sure when you actually can’t tell me how many tries Murray has scored in open play in his career?

I’m a Leinster supporter as well, which is as irrelevant as you being one.

Granny15 · 04-01-2020 02:40PM

Faugheen wrote: »

So how can you be sure when you actually can’t tell me how many tries Murray has scored in open play in his career?

I’m a Leinster supporter as well, which is as irrelevant as you being one.

Because I’m not a stats machine that has access to those kinds of stats. I don’t think anyone does who isn’t working inside the game. It’s just something I have picked up on Cooney doing this season. He has finished off many tries by being in support. I don’t readily recollect Murray ever scoring a try from that.

Former Former · 04-01-2020 02:44PM

molloyjh wrote: »

. I find it bizarre how people seem incapable of grasping this, but provincial form doesnt equate to international form. Provincial form gets you in the door for the national team.

Exactly.

The decline of the Pro14 as a serious competition has made this even more of a problem. You never get a full strength Irish province facing up against an Ospreys or Scarlets packed with Welsh internationals any more, now Glasgow are falling apart and the IRFU have totally devalued the inter-pros.

So it's getting harder and harder to figure out exactly what provincial form means when so many of the games are a million miles from test level. Even in Europe, it's going the same way. Like, going to Quins before Christmas should have been a big test for Ulster, except Quins decided not to bother even though they were still in the hunt for a QF. Cakewalk for yon Ulster lads but not sure what we learned.

Obviously it's great that lads are tearing it up, it's just a question of what that really means in the bigger picture.

Hopefully Ulster and Munster going to France in the coming weeks will give us a better idea of where players are. I expect Lyon to be a rabble when they land in Dublin so another pointless exercise.

Faugheen · 04-01-2020 02:45PM

Granny15 wrote: »

Because I’m not a stats machine that has access to those kinds of stats. I don’t think anyone does who isn’t working inside the game. It’s just something I have picked up on Cooney doing this season. He has finished off many tries by being in support. I don’t readily recollect Murray ever scoring a try from that.

So you make a claim with absolutely no basis to back it up?

https://youtu.be/CroJrkvYY3c

There’s just one. For Ireland. After passing the ball twice in the build up.

I’m on board with the criticism of Murray’s form but what happens with a lot of Irish fans is that people over-exaggerate and make out that player X never had certain aspects to his game. This is the case for any player who is on the decline.

He may not be at that level anymore but Murray was once one of if not the best 9 in the world.

Granny15 · 04-01-2020 02:53PM

Faugheen wrote: »

So you make a claim with absolutely no basis to back it up?

https://youtu.be/CroJrkvYY3c

There’s just one. For Ireland. After passing the ball twice in the build up,

Do you post stats in support of every assertion you make? I don’t think you do you’re just being argumentative.

I was pointing out an area where I think Cooney might have one up on Murray and yes there are examples of Murray scoring in support but they are far fewer than Cooney does.

Cooney breaks his backside to getup in support when his team his teammates make a line break and it is paying off for him this season by being able to score tries from breaking his neck to get there in support.

There are examples of Murray doing it but if has in the past it is with far less frequency than Cooney is doing it this season. I can’t argue with you if you’re going to pull me up on every point I make and ask me to back it up with stats

Faugheen · 04-01-2020 03:02PM

Granny15 wrote: »

Do you post stats in support of every assertion you make? I don’t think you do you’re just being argumentative.

Only one person has backed up a claim they have made in this discussion and it’s me. You are the one being argumentative by continuing to post nonsense with nothing to back up your nonsense.

Granny15 wrote: »

I was pointing out an area where I think Cooney might have one up on Murray and yes there are examples of Murray scoring in support but they are far fewer than Cooney does.

You didn’t ‘point out an area where Cooney might have one up’, you point blank said you never see Murray doing this, as evidenced in your post below:

Granny15 wrote: »

You never see Murray picking up a support pass in open play and finishing off a move whereas Cooney doesn’t give up and follows through in his support play and finishes team tries.

You had absolutely no basis for that claim. Zero. You just made it up.

Granny15 wrote: »

There are examples of Murray doing it but if has in the past it is with far less frequency than Cooney is doing it this season. I can’t argue with you if you’re going to pull me up on every point I make and ask me to back it up with stats

Well you have made a claim that I have asked you to back up and you can’t. You claimed Murray ‘never’ did this, I debunked this with just one try less than two years ago and now you’re shifting the goalposts while refusing to back up what you’re saying.

Don’t make a claim if you can’t back it up.

Granny15 · 04-01-2020 03:18PM

Faugheen wrote: »

Only one person has backed up a claim they have made in this discussion and it’s me. You are the one being argumentative by continuing to post nonsense with nothing to back up your nonsense.

You didn’t ‘point out an area where Cooney might have one up’, you point blank said you never see Murray doing this, as evidenced in your post below:

You had absolutely no basis for that claim. Zero. You just made it up.

Well you have made a claim that I have asked you to back up and you can’t. You claimed Murray ‘never’ did this, I debunked this with just one try less than two years ago and now you’re shifting the goalposts while refusing to back up what you’re saying.

Don’t make a claim if you can’t back it up.

Maybe i was over exaggerating my point by saying “never” but the point still stands he scores more tries in support than Murray does

shootermacg · 04-01-2020 03:26PM

Granny15 wrote: »

Maybe i was over exaggerating my point by saying “never” but the point still stands he scores more tries in support than Murray does

This forum will certainly help you with your exaggeration issues.

Faugheen · 04-01-2020 04:05PM

Granny15 wrote: »

Maybe i was over exaggerating my point by saying “never” but the point still stands he scores more tries in support than Murray does

You said you had no recollection of Murray ever scoring a try like it.

You weren’t exaggerating. You made a point saying it was never seen, got called out on it, changed it to you not remembering him ever scoring a try like that, was shown an occasion of him scoring a try like that, now you’re saying you were ‘maybe over-exaggerating’.

You were chatting sh*te and you got caught with egg on your face. Put your hands up, say ‘fair enough’ and move on.

Granny15 · 04-01-2020 04:12PM

Faugheen wrote: »

You said you had no recollection of Murray ever scoring a try like it.

You weren’t exaggerating. You made a point saying it was never seen, got called out on it, changed it to you not remembering him ever scoring a try like that, was shown an occasion of him scoring a try like that, now you’re saying you were ‘maybe over-exaggerating’.

You were chatting sh*te and you got caught with egg on your face. Put your hands up, say ‘fair enough’ and move on.

You picked me up on a trend that I highlighted using my memory as the focal point for making that point. I didn’t back it up with stats because I don’t have access to them. You’re picking me up on a trend and saying it is wrong from one example highlighting Murray has scored by running a support line but what you don’t deny that the general point/trend I was making/referencing is not false. That’s because Cooney has scored an awful lot more tries from support runs than Murray has. I’m using my memory this is not a court of law you tried to highlight the falseness of that trend using one example but it doesn’t falsify the overriding point. Get a life and stop picking people apart for highlighting trends they see from memory

Faugheen · 04-01-2020 04:20PM

Granny15 wrote: »

You’re picking me up on a trend and saying it is wrong from one example highlighting Murray has scored by running a support line but what you don’t deny that the general point/trend I was making/referencing is not false. That’s because Cooney has scored an awful lot more tries from support runs than Murray has.

Prove it. I couldn’t give a ****e what your memory says. Give me cold hard facts and I’ll entertain it.

Granny15 · 04-01-2020 04:26PM

Faugheen wrote: »

Prove it. I couldn’t give a ****e what your memory says. Give me cold hard facts and I’ll entertain it.

They don't give those kind of stats online. I'm using my coaches eye to highlight an area i think he's better - granted not with facts but i will wager I am not wrong if someone can provide stats on it. You have a problem with that - nothing i can do to remedy that.

Dubinusa · 04-01-2020 04:45PM

Agreed about provincial form not being test form! Disagree with the experience factor. We saw the experience factor a few months ago in Japan. Cooney is easily the best 9 in Ireland right now. Easily! If now is not his time to get a shot, when would it be?
As far as tackling goes, Luke McGrath is the best tackler of our 9's, imo.
Cooney and Blade have been the better 9's this season, that I have seen. I think they both deserve an opportunity.
Murray is not as good as these lads and is looking ordinary. Just because he is Murray with vast experience does not alter the fact that he is no longer the best 9 we have.
On McGrath and JGP, they've both been good this season. The 2 of them could make hay for the national team, if given a shot. But. Cooney has been at another level.

Granny15 · 04-01-2020 05:00PM

I think Cooney works harder for his team than any scrumhalf on the island.

He also scores more tries and points than any other scrumhalf.

He also box kicks less than Murray who overuses the box kick tactic outside his 22 which has proven to be limited and useless after the 2018 Grand Slam.

razorblunt · 04-01-2020 05:09PM

In fairness Cooney vs Murray should not really be a debate. Murray is haunted Alby wasn’t retained that would have been an elephant in the room, not that it wasn’t already.

Zzippy · 04-01-2020 05:18PM

Faugheen wrote: »

Prove it. I couldn’t give a ****e what your memory says. Give me cold hard facts and I’ll entertain it.

Mod: Calm down and stop posting in such an aggressive manner. You've been warned previously, so cop on or head on.

theVersatile · 04-01-2020 07:16PM

In fairness, its true Cooney scores more tries from those kind of support lines - even this season he's scored probably four or five in this manner. However I think a lot of that comes from Ulster's ability to break the line vs Munster.

Take the Overall Stats sheet available here from the Pro14
https://www.pro14rugby.org/media-resource-opta-stats/

A quick glance will show that Ulster players are plastered all over the "clean breaks" stats. Gilroy, Balacoune, Reidy, Lyttle, Faddes. Shane Daly is the only Munster player in the list - and I'm not sure he's even played with Murray bar the Ulster game just gone. Murray hasn't the opportunity to lick up these easy scores because the line breaks aren't being made.

That said, I don't think Cooneys line running is any way better than Murray's. If someone were to come up with some arbitrary percentage/ratio like Support Lines per Line Break, (e.g if Player X runs 17 positive lines from a total of 21 teammate linebreaks his "Support Score" would be 0.81 or 81%) I would imagine they would be similar across both players, and probably most nines in world rugby. (Slightly weighted towards faster nines such as Cooney, Blade and on a wider scale the likes of Perenara and Aaron Smith) - they would be similar purely due to the fact that it's a basic facet of playing nine.

You don't get to play professional rugby as a nine if you don't run those lines, it's as straight forward as that. Murray, Blade, Cooney, McGrath, JGP - they runs these lines so often and a lot of the time don't even get picked up on TV. Hell, even other players run these positive lines. Good opensides will use these lines to get to rucks from wide strike moves as quickly as possible. Tens run lines through the defence after giving flat passes, just look at Frawley today.

Saying a nine runs less or more of these lines than another nine from observation is likely false. Using tries as a way of proving the superiority of one nine over another is silly, as that is more down to the team as a whole making attacking breaks than the nines running the lines they run many times a game.

theVersatile · 04-01-2020 07:19PM

As an addition, people seem to think that Murray is box kicking for the craic or his own personal gain instead of following instructions from coaching staff and executing a game plan. I doubt Joe or JVG would've stuck with him if he was kicking the ball away against the will of the coaching staff...

shootermacg · 04-01-2020 07:21PM

Granny15 wrote: »

I think Cooney works harder for his team than any scrumhalf on the island.

He also scores more tries and points than any other scrumhalf.

He also box kicks less than Murray who overuses the box kick tactic outside his 22 which has proven to be limited and useless after the 2018 Grand Slam.

Thought we put that to bed. If you look at all the successful teams, Sarries, England, SA they all play a very basic game, which includes plenty of ....that's right .... box kicks.

Granny15 · 04-01-2020 09:26PM

theVersatile wrote: »

In fairness, its true Cooney scores more tries from those kind of support lines - even this season he's scored probably four or five in this manner. However I think a lot of that comes from Ulster's ability to break the line vs Munster.

Take the Overall Stats sheet available here from the Pro14
https://www.pro14rugby.org/media-resource-opta-stats/

A quick glance will show that Ulster players are plastered all over the "clean breaks" stats. Gilroy, Balacoune, Reidy, Lyttle, Faddes. Shane Daly is the only Munster player in the list - and I'm not sure he's even played with Murray bar the Ulster game just gone. Murray hasn't the opportunity to lick up these easy scores because the line breaks aren't being made.

That said, I don't think Cooneys line running is any way better than Murray's. If someone were to come up with some arbitrary percentage/ratio like Support Lines per Line Break, (e.g if Player X runs 17 positive lines from a total of 21 teammate linebreaks his "Support Score" would be 0.81 or 81%) I would imagine they would be similar across both players, and probably most nines in world rugby. (Slightly weighted towards faster nines such as Cooney, Blade and on a wider scale the likes of Perenara and Aaron Smith) - they would be similar purely due to the fact that it's a basic facet of playing nine.

You don't get to play professional rugby as a nine if you don't run those lines, it's as straight forward as that. Murray, Blade, Cooney, McGrath, JGP - they runs these lines so often and a lot of the time don't even get picked up on TV. Hell, even other players run these positive lines. Good opensides will use these lines to get to rucks from wide strike moves as quickly as possible. Tens run lines through the defence after giving flat passes, just look at Frawley today.

Saying a nine runs less or more of these lines than another nine from observation is likely false. Using tries as a way of proving the superiority of one nine over another is silly, as that is more down to the team as a whole making attacking breaks than the nines running the lines they run many times a game.

Very thorough and insightful analysis. That's the kind of analysis i can get behind and concede my points on. I have always said that stats are misleading and can be used to paint a picture from either end of a spectrum and that they only show much of a picture without giving root causes behind them.

Perhaps Murray isn't reaping the rewards of a team running rampant at home 50% of the games in the season and perhaps Murray is up in support and just doesn't get to finish. Maybe he's not that kind of player and has other strengths we haven't highlighted using stats yet. I'm sure there are plenty of areas he is better than his counterparts.

I noticed a trend from memory perhaps false and misleading as we usually see what we want to see rather than what actually factually occurs. In my defence i went with what struck me from watching Cooney and i thought i noticed a trend albeit going on both players current form. I didnt have access to historical data but the point probably still holds up albeit with mitigating circumstances as highlighted above.

What is important though is that the stats on their own are misleading without giving root causes or reasons behind them. More of this analysis from everyone who are used to posting stats and establishing them as facts without highlighting mitigating circumstances. Well done.

Granny15 · 04-01-2020 09:29PM

shootermacg wrote: »

Thought we put that to bed. If you look at all the successful teams, Sarries, England, SA they all play a very basic game, which includes plenty of ....that's right .... box kicks.

Yes and all those teams you list have massive packs and solid defences. they just move up the park and station themselves where the player is tackledd conceding very little ground. Might not be the best tactic for the smaller and more mobile ireland and munster teams.

Granny15 · 04-01-2020 09:37PM

theVersatile wrote: »

As an addition, people seem to think that Murray is box kicking for the craic or his own personal gain instead of following instructions from coaching staff and executing a game plan. I doubt Joe or JVG would've stuck with him if he was kicking the ball away against the will of the coaching staff...

I'm a fullback. By nature i want to see the ball spread wide and get annoyed if it isn't. I believe that players get a certain amount of leeway to play their own game inside a gameplan and that includes making judgements on when it is best to box kick.

It strikes me that Murray errs on the side of doing this too much maybe backing his ability to kick high accurate balls which he is admittedly the best in the world at. I believe the overreliance on this largely falls on the scrumhalf who takes those decisions within the game and teams gameplan.

I do think there is an element of selfishness to it maybe backing yourself and your own skillset too much when faith should be shown in teammates a bit more. I see it all the way up in all levels of the game and players need to be reprimanded for it in my view especially when the tactic isnt working and the team/scrumhalf persist with it.

shootermacg · 05-01-2020 12:39AM

Granny15 wrote: »

Yes and all those teams you list have massive packs and solid defences. they just move up the park and station themselves where the player is tackledd conceding very little ground. Might not be the best tactic for the smaller and more mobile ireland and munster teams.

Nothing to do with big forwards. It's a bloody box kick, if you're relying on your forwards to catch it, then you're doing it wrong..... The whole idea of box kicks is it gives you a chance to retain possession outside of pressure areas.

jm08 · 05-01-2020 03:05PM

For the Rugby World Cup selection at SH, the following issues would have had to be factored in by Schmidt.

1. The need to bring 3 OHs as both Sexton & Carbery were not fully fit. He then ended up with 2 SHs.
2. Luke McGrath played with Sexton at Provincial level and Conor Murray plays with Carbery (though not as much as needed due to injury). I don't think Cooney played with the other OHs.
3. Marmion's form has been a bit off his usual performance levels, so not surprised really that Luke McGrath got picked.

Not saying that Schmidt was right by the way, just some rationale as to why he made the selections he did. I actually think the mistake was bringing Carbery as he really wasn't fit which messed around with the selections.

Ulster vs Munster, Fri 3 Jan, 7:35pm, Eir

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