Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

27-12-2019 01:48PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I live in the UK where I can see firsthand where people taking this silly nonsense seriously leads. Since you have no evidence, I'm not wasting any more time on this.

But you will. As will I.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-12-2019 01:50PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I live in the UK where I can see firsthand where people taking this silly nonsense seriously leads. Since you have no evidence, I'm not wasting any more time on this.

I have explained it coherently.

You won't waste time because you deny what is evident factual truth. Post truth world.

I can't help that.

end of the road · 27-12-2019 01:58PM

theological wrote: »

I didn't say that the EU wants to be a super state, so please respond to my posts rather than anyone else's.

You could ask me what I think rather than telling me what I think. I was replying to a poster who told us on this thread that the European Parliaments are where decisions are made. This isn't true. This is where decisions made by the European Commission are rubber stamped.

If there is a fear of the larger countries in the EU dominating over member states if the European Parliament had more power surely that just demonstrates that the EU is too big and has too much control over matters that should be deferred to national parliaments.

Perhaps a better model would be that legislation can be proposed to national parliaments from the European Commission and then accepted, amended, or rejected in national parliaments. Or indeed that national parliaments can propose legislation that can be considered across Europe.

The reality is that the EU doesn't want reform, it wants to stay the way it is. The UK decided that this wasn't good enough for them and they decided to leave and take back control. That's a respectable decision.

yeah, they wanted to take back control of what they already have full control of but couldn't be bothered to actually, you know, control, but instead blame everyone else for their own failings.
taking back control was just a meaningless soundbite.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Lisbon Treaty /your argument

the members voted for it.
in our case we got concessions and had to vote again as it was a different deal, i would imagine that it would probably have been found unconstitutional if we didn't and someone took a challenge.
democracy in action.

Irishmale0399 · 27-12-2019 01:59PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Quote my points. Very articulate and coherent.

The EU is German dominance by a means other than military.

I'm not going to be a parrot for deniers.

If the Germans had dominance within the EU you would know all about it.

- Ireland would be flooded by refugees, who have not been vetted
- Pensioners would be lining up to get food packages
- You would be driving on the other side of the road
- You would be paying 15% of your wages on health insurance only
- 75% of the Irish population would be renting their homes
- the list goes on, go live and work in Germany and experience it

Have read many foolish comments in here but that one has to top it.

theological · 27-12-2019 02:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

My post was from an Irish perspective where we have not had a Brexit, and to an Irish poster. I meant that Brexit has just entrenched a lot of the ideas regarding it and the middle ground is a bit lost.

I look forward to the UK forging forward. They have shown that it's what they want and while the future is unclear, the underlying of it unambiguous.

I am an Irish poster. We don't all think the same. I don't know where this odd idea is that all Irish people are a kind of hive mind came from.

end of the road · 27-12-2019 02:13PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I have explained it coherently.

You won't waste time because you deny what is evident factual truth. Post truth world.

I can't help that.

no, we don't deny evident factual truth. we deny what looks to be nothing more then copy and paste rants from the nyjel party.

54and56 · 27-12-2019 02:14PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Lisbon Treaty /your argument

Not true / your mantra.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-12-2019 02:19PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

If the Germans had dominance within the EU you would know all about it.

- Ireland would be flooded by refugees, who have not been vetted
- Pensioners would be lining up to get food packages
- You would be driving on the other side of the road
- You would be paying 15% of your wages on health insurance only
- 75% of the Irish population would be renting their homes
- the list goes on, go live and work in Germany and experience it

Have read many foolish comments in here but that one has to top it.

They don't care that we drive on the wrong side of the road.

They have ultimate control. That is all they care about.

27-12-2019 02:19PM

theological wrote: »

I am an Irish poster. We don't all think the same. I don't know where this odd idea is that all Irish people are a kind of hive mind came from.

My post was asking what Ireland should do. I then clarified that I was talking about Ireland.

What should be our way forward in your opinion? and Kermit since I previously asked him?

Kermit.de.frog · 27-12-2019 02:24PM

Deleted User wrote: »

My post was asking what Ireland should do. I then clarified that I was talking about Ireland.

What should be our way forward in your opinion? and Kermit since I previously asked him?

It's going to happen anyway.

It should happen now - we should leave the eurozone but stay in the EU.

This will be upsetting and unstable in the beginning but it will quickly settle with the new Irish currency.

We should not be afraid of doing what is right for us. If you are afraid of quitting a club than that is no club at all you should belong to.

Irishmale0399 · 27-12-2019 02:29PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They don't care that we drive on the wrong side of the road.

They have ultimate control. That is all they care about.

You really dont have a clue.....the German car producers would love all the EU to drive on the same side. Reduces costs, number of production sites etc. etc.
As the German government indirectly own a large share of one of Europes biggest car producers it would be in their interests to force Ireland to change, but they havent.

As for ultimate control....please expand, will be interesting to see how you build your fantasy world together. Last time the Germans wanted ultimate control was under a certain Adolf Hitler, however even he didnt include wee Ireland in his master plan. He sent weapons to the Irish...

Kermit.de.frog · 27-12-2019 02:32PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

You really dont have a clue.....the German car producers would love all the EU to drive on the same side. Reduces costs, number of production sites etc. etc.
As the German government indirectly own a large share of one of Europes biggest car producers it would be in their interests to force Ireland to change, but they havent.

As for ultimate control....please expand, will be interesting to see how you build your fantasy world together. Last time the Germans wanted ultimate control was under a certain Adolf Hitler, however even he didnt include wee Ireland in his master plan. He sent weapons to the Irish...

Germany has ultimate control over Europe - even Britain outside the EU. Germany will control it through the EU and ECB.

That is a fact. I can't help those who ignore fact.

Irishmale0399 · 27-12-2019 02:39PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Germany has ultimate control over Europe - even Britain outside the EU. Germany will control it through the EU and ECB.

That is a fact. I can't help those who ignore fact.

I think what you are trying to say is that Germany with its 80 million plus population and being one of the worlds biggest exporters, they have influence on markets. Probably more influence that Ireland with its 4 odd million population....thats a law of averages my friend.

But if it makes you feel better and you want to do your bit to fight off the might of the Germans....stop shopping at Lidl and Aldi, dont buy VW, BMW, Audi, Mini......Siemens, Neff, Bosch....you could be the next Greta.

First Up · 27-12-2019 02:54PM

theological wrote:

To leave the EU on January 31st and to negotiate a free trade arrangement with the EU and other countries I would have thought.

Why? Well - because the people have voted for it on 3 separate occasions now.

The only way the UK can get a free trade agreement with the EU is to join the Customs Union, comply with and enforce the EU's external trade agreements and continue to conform to EU standards. And even with all that, there will still be customs checks and queues at ports.

The last UK parliament rejected anything close to that several times on the (not unreasonable) basis that it was taking back control of sweet f.a.

So we'll see how Boris gets on with persuading the current parliament.

joseywhales · 27-12-2019 02:54PM

Surely having peripheral EU countries with strong economies is beneficial for an export driven economy like Germany. They would have lots of frictionless trade with rich consumers.

If Ireland had its own currency and applied quantitative easing to pay back debt, bearing in mind our currency would be openly traded in fx markets, why would anyone have confidence in the value of our tiny currency that we are so ready to dilute? I would suspect the markets would decide our currency is worthless if we immediately went about de-valuing, we could go the way of the rouble or the Argentinian peso.

theological · 27-12-2019 03:21PM

First Up wrote: »

The only way the UK can get a free trade agreement with the EU is to join the Customs Union, comply with and enforce the EU's external trade agreements and continue to conform to EU standards. And even with all that, there will still be customs checks and queues at ports.

The last UK parliament rejected anything close to that several times on the (not unreasonable) basis that it was taking back control of sweet f.a.

So we'll see how Boris gets on with persuading the current parliament.

The first clause in your sentence is false. Canada has a FTA with the EU and it isn't in a customs union with the EU.

Many countries across the world do FTAs with each other without harmonising tariffs.

Deleted User wrote: »

My post was asking what Ireland should do. I then clarified that I was talking about Ireland.

What should be our way forward in your opinion? and Kermit since I previously asked him?

What Ireland should do isn't hard. Stay in the EU and advocate for a good FTA with the UK because it is in Ireland's interest to do so.

First Up · 27-12-2019 03:26PM

theological wrote:

The first clause in your sentence is false. Canada has a FTA with the EU and it isn't in a customs union with the EU.

It isn't an FTA.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-12-2019 03:28PM

[QUOTE=theological;112104000[/quote]

What Ireland should do isn't hard. Stay in the EU and advocate for a good FTA with the UK because it is in Ireland's interest to do so.[/QUOTE]

Stay in the prison of the Eurozone? lol

You are indoctrinated - fact means nothing. I could say Germany runs the EU and that the EU is German expansion by other means and you would automatically say no. It's amazing what Germany has achieved.

To indoctrinate so many and to have fooled so many across the contintent is an AMAZING achievement.

It won't last and that is when Germany goes to war again.

weldoninhio · 27-12-2019 03:30PM

54and56 wrote: »

Nothing has been grabbed. EU member countries have democratically decided to club together for mutually beneficial reasons. No one is forcing any country to do anything it doesn't want to do. Each country, as the UK is about to demonstrate, is free to trigger an exit clause (article 50) and leave without the need to seek permission from any other members of the union.

Contrast that with Scotland's position within the Union of GB&NI. They are trapped and are not free to determine their own destiny without permission from the UK govt which is made up of 365 Tory MP's 95% of which (345) are from England.

Its ironic how the very people who engineered Brexit with messages about how the EU has too much power and it was time to take back control etc are the very same people preventing Scotland from taking back control for itself.

None are as blind as those who will not see.

Yes, democratically. And if you don’t vote the way Europe wants you get to democratically vote again until you do. They’ve done it twice in Ireland and tried to force a second EU ref in the U.K.

FrancieBrady · 27-12-2019 03:35PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

Yes, democratically. And if you don’t vote the way Europe wants you get to democratically vote again until you do. They’ve done it twice in Ireland and tried to force a second EU ref in the U.K.

It was 'forces' within Ireland who wanted those referendums passed. It was they who went back to Europe and sought clarifications and it was they who decided perfectly democratically to run the referendums by an electorate completely free to turn them down again.

Who were those 'forces'? - the 'elected' government.

weldoninhio · 27-12-2019 03:41PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was 'forces' within Ireland who wanted those referendums passed. It was they who went back to Europe and sought clarifications and it was they who decided perfectly democratically to run the referendums by an electorate completely free to turn them down again.

Who were those 'forces'? - the 'elected' government.

It was the EU that got us to vote again. It may have been Irish ministers who were “briefed” by the EU calling for it, but they got their orders from the EU.

First Up · 27-12-2019 03:42PM

weldoninhio wrote:

It was the EU that got us to vote again. It may have been Irish ministers who were â€œbriefedâ€ by the EU calling for it, but they got their orders from the EU.

Who ordered the electorate?

27-12-2019 03:48PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Stay in the prison of the Eurozone? lol

You are indoctrinated - fact means nothing. I could say Germany runs the EU and that the EU is German expansion by other means and you would automatically say no. It's amazing what Germany has achieved.

To indoctrinate so many and to have fooled so many across the contintent is an AMAZING achievement.

It won't last and that is when Germany goes to war again.

A lot of your posts took the piss out of the likes of crypto and others for saying similar to the above, now your posting the same ****e as they did without backing it up, what's the word to describe this behavior again?

FrancieBrady · 27-12-2019 03:51PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

It was the EU that got us to vote again. It may have been Irish ministers who were “briefed” by the EU calling for it, but they got their orders from the EU.

Dear god, this bull**** again.

Would you make a New Year's resolution to inform yourself?

Here is contemporary reporting of what was ACTUALLY happening.

Martin said that if the government was satisfied with the guarantees being discussed “we are prepared to put it to the electorate”, referring implicitly to a second referendum.

The foreign minister said that Ireland’s decision to accept or reject the treaty amounts to a choice over its role in the EU. “Over time we can become a bit more marginalised or be at the centre, building up influence,” he said.

https://www.politico.eu/article/irish-secure-concessions-on-lisbon-treaty/

there is also much more detailed accounts. You will probably bounce back with a 'fake news' riposte. :rolleyes:

Kermit.de.frog · 27-12-2019 03:54PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

A lot of your posts took the piss out of the likes of crypto and others for saying similar to the above, now your posting the same ****e as they did without backing it up, what's the word to describe this behavior again?

I did back it up.

Go back and read my posts - I understand this requires an intellectual capacity that may or may not be beyond you.

I'm not parroting what has already been successfully put across.

27-12-2019 03:57PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I did back it up.

Go back and read my posts - I understand this requires an intellectual capacity that may or may not be beyond you.

I'm not parroting what has already been successfully put across.

I have and they are as stated, maybe try to remember what bs your posting.

joseywhales · 27-12-2019 03:58PM

You did not explicitly lay out the assumptions that you are asserting as 'fact' for which you built you case on.

Stating that x is fact is not proving it.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-12-2019 04:16PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

I have and they are as stated, maybe try to remember what bs your posting.

What do you take issue with?

Please quote.

Kidchameleon · 27-12-2019 04:34PM

end of the road wrote: »

the members voted for it.
in our case we got concessions and had to vote again as it was a different deal, i would imagine that it would probably have been found unconstitutional if we didn't and someone took a challenge.
democracy in action.

What do you think would have happened had we said no a second time? That crappy treaty was coming no matter what

First Up · 27-12-2019 04:53PM

Kidchameleon wrote:

What do you think would have happened had we said no a second time? That crappy treaty was coming no matter what

No it wouldn't but what was crappy about it anyway?

Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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