Marriage referendum, odd or not?

beejee · 21-12-2019 10:24PM #1

Somebody posted in another thread some supposed society-wide manipulation by certain groups. Different issue to the gay marriage thing, but it got me thinking, and not for the first time.

Is it not quite strange, very strange, that a supposedly staunch catholic/Christian country like Ireland could vote for such a contrary thing?

I have a few ideas myself, ranging from most unlikely to downright social experimentation/manipulation.

First... It was simply a case that social mindsets change rapidly. So rapidly that you can change an overall social outlook a complete 180° in, what, 20 years? Impressive.

Second... An elastic band effect, a rebellious backlash against a harsh church? Springing from one "extreme" to another "extreme", only to find a middle ground later?

Third...That the harsh indoctrination of the Catholic Church singled us out for experimentation. "hey, this small bunch of people know how to take orders without questions, with deep media penetration, let's see what happens"

It's not just the marriage referendum, but similar things where Ireland is a" first" in one regard or another.

It all just seems so counterintuitive for Ireland of all places. Even in France, when it came to gay marriage, it's still a country that prides itself on secular outlooks.

So, to get an opinion from a broad, even if shallow, touchstone, what's after hours thoughts?

Strikes as a strange outcome? Nothing more? Perfectly expected to go from one opinion to, practically, the polar opposite? Maybe there are similar precedents of which I'm unaware?

anewme · 21-12-2019 10:27PM

Merry Christmas!

whatawaster81 · 21-12-2019 10:30PM

Welcome to 2020. Nothing to see here. Carry on.

corner of hells · 21-12-2019 10:37PM

beejee wrote: »

Somebody posted in another thread some supposed society-wide manipulation by certain groups. Different issue to the gay marriage thing, but it got me thinking, and not for the first time.

Is it not quite strange, very strange, that a supposedly staunch catholic/Christian country like Ireland could vote for such a contrary thing?

I have a few ideas myself, ranging from most unlikely to downright social experimentation/manipulation.

First... It was simply a case that social mindsets change rapidly. So rapidly that you can change an overall social outlook a complete 180° in, what, 20 years? Impressive.

Second... An elastic band effect, a rebellious backlash against a harsh church? Springing from one "extreme" to another "extreme", only to find a middle ground later?

Third...That the harsh indoctrination of the Catholic Church singled us out for experimentation. "hey, this small bunch of people know how to take orders without questions, with deep media penetration, let's see what happens"

It's not just the marriage referendum, but similar things where Ireland is a" first" in one regard or another.

It all just seems so counterintuitive for Ireland of all places. Even in France, when it came to gay marriage, it's still a country that prides itself on secular outlooks.

So, to get an opinion from a broad, even if shallow, touchstone, what's after hours thoughts?

Strikes as a strange outcome? Nothing more? Perfectly expected to go from one opinion to, practically, the polar opposite? Maybe there are similar precedents of which I'm unaware?

I'm selling a Nissan Qashqai in the new year, 110k in the clock , nct till Sept 20 , 2018 reg.

beejee · 21-12-2019 10:38PM

whatawaster81 wrote: »

Welcome to 2020. Nothing to see here. Carry on.

You don't find it at least noteworthy that you and the nation around you can have its opinions flipped in such a relative short amount of time?

If so, what thing will you be doing next in your lifetime that goes completely against the grain? Could be anything, really!

Even the first few replies are of the "let's ignore" variety. Strange, when a simple "Yeah, strange alright" or "no, not strange at all" would do.

Instead, you could put the tinfoil hat on and think something outrageous, like people want to avoid talking on the subject at all

Raconteuse · 21-12-2019 10:41PM

I think it's a combination of the first two. A young population also. If you remember back to the X case, the Bishop Casey scandal (not that what he did was so wrong but it was at odds with what was expected of him - of course the only thing exceptional about it was he got caught), Fr Brendan Smyth, the industrial schools revelations, Ferns... what had been bubbling just boiled over.

Wibbs · 21-12-2019 10:43PM

I would say a rejection of the "catholic" past had a fair chunk to do with it. That and more people having more information than they ever had. Go back 40 years and unless you were on "the Pipe TV" in Dublin or had a huge feck off aerial pretty much all you heard and read was locally filtered through the state/church/status quo(not the band... ). A big chunk of younger people coming through another reason. From about the mid 80's it was evident and IIRC at one time Ireland had one of the youngest demographics in Europe.

21-12-2019 10:43PM

It's amazing what happens when religion's grip on a nation's windpipe is released.

beejee · 21-12-2019 10:48PM

Raconteuse wrote: »

I think it's a combination of the first two. A young population also. If you remember back to the X case, the Bishop Casey scandal (not that what he did was so wrong but it was at odds with what was expected of him - of course the only thing exceptional about it was he got caught), Fr Brendan Smyth, the industrial schools revelations, Ferns... what had been bubbling just boiled over.

Seems reasonable, however I wouldn't go too much with my first guess. Such scale of change is quite unusual, is it not? Why Ireland before the UK, or USA, or whoever?

I can certainly see the "backlash" thing alright.

But, I'm also very sceptical of media manipulation and vested interests, at large (not just this issue). I still find it hard to believe that such a rapid social upheaval could occur in isolation. Would be interesting to see others opinions too.

whatawaster81 · 21-12-2019 10:51PM

beejee wrote: »

You don't find it at least noteworthy that you and the nation around you can have its opinions flipped in such a relative short amount of time?

If so, what thing will you be doing next in your lifetime that goes completely against the grain? Could be anything, really!

Even the first few replies are of the "let's ignore" variety. Strange, when a simple "Yeah, strange alright" or "no, not strange at all" would do.

Instead, you could put the tinfoil hat on and think something outrageous, like people want to avoid talking on the subject at all

No. This catholic country you speak of that would be opposed to same sex marriage are not the people I know and not the people I grew up with, not the family I was reared in. It's the ruling class passing laws to keep every one in line with how they how they see the world. Finally they gave the people a chance to use their voice. Also young people used the opportunity to vote.

HappyAsLarE · 21-12-2019 10:52PM

Let’s not forget that a third of the voting population didn’t vote Yes.

MrAbyss · 21-12-2019 10:52PM

I voted for Gay marriage because I hate Christianity with a passion and especially the Irish Catholic Church. Same for abortion.

I am a Pagan and I see Christianity the same way a Jew sees National Socialism.

I long for the day when abortions are performed on the altar at the PRO Cathedral by two homosexual doctors who just got engaged.

beejee · 21-12-2019 10:53PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I would say a rejection of the "catholic" past had a fair chunk to do with it. That and more people having more information than they ever had. Go back 40 years and unless you were on "the Pipe TV" in Dublin or had a huge feck off aerial pretty much all you heard and read was locally filtered through the state/church/status quo(not the band... ). A big chunk of younger people coming through another reason. From about the mid 80's it was evident and IIRC at one time Ireland had one of the youngest demographics in Europe.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's amazing what happens when religion's grip on a nation's windpipe is released.

I can see that. But wouldn't that be far more likely to have happened in any number of countries before Ireland??

Why Ireland in particular? Again, even taking into account a waning grasp of the Catholic Church.

Surely, you'd imagine a non-religious country would be far more open to the idea, right?

Akin to a fitness freak turning into an obese slob, it just seems counterintuitive to go from one all the way to the other.

beejee · 21-12-2019 10:55PM

whatawaster81 wrote: »

No. This catholic country you speak of that would be opposed to same sex marriage are not the people I know and not the people I grew up with, not the family I was reared in. It's the ruling class passing laws to keep every one in line with how they how they see the world. Finally they gave the people a chance to use their voice. Also young people used the opportunity to vote.

So why here, and not elsewhere? Even if, in your own experience, it was all a cod with the Catholic Church... It would STILL be less likely to happen here than elsewhere.

beejee · 21-12-2019 10:57PM

MrAbyss wrote: »

I voted for Gay marriage because I hate Christianity with a passion and especially the Irish Catholic Church. Same for abortion.

I am a Pagan and I see Christianity the same way a Jew sees National Socialism.

I long for the day when abortions are performed on the altar at the PRO Cathedral by two homosexual doctors who just got engaged.

Well balanced reasoning like yours is the foundation of democracy.

"do the opposite"

Raconteuse · 21-12-2019 10:57PM

beejee wrote: »

Seems reasonable, however I wouldn't go too much with my first guess. Such scale of change is quite unusual, is it not? Why Ireland before the UK, or USA, or whoever?

I can certainly see the "backlash" thing alright.

But, I'm also very sceptical of media manipulation and vested interests, at large (not just this issue). I still find it hard to believe that such a rapid social upheaval could occur in isolation. Would be interesting to see others opinions too.

Well the UK and U.S weren't under the grip of the church like Ireland was. Very liberal in places too.

MrAbyss wrote: »

I voted for Gay marriage because I hate Christianity with a passion and especially the Irish Catholic Church. Same for abortion.

I am a Pagan and I see Christianity the same way a Jew sees National Socialism.

I long for the day when abortions are performed on the altar at the PRO Cathedral by two homosexual doctors who just got engaged.

I lolled (thought you were serious until the last paragraph :pac:).

Better Than Christ · 21-12-2019 10:58PM

There were no reasonable arguments against it, just vague Helen Lovejoy nonsense from disingenuous religious extremists who wouldn't ordinarily care about the welfare of children. Even the Catholic Church itself didn't put up much of a public fight against it. I don't buy into the idea that it was a reaction against the church and its various transgressions and crimes - I know lots of committed Catholics who voted 'Yes' simply because it was the decent thing to do.

whatawaster81 · 21-12-2019 10:58PM

beejee wrote: »

So why here, and not elsewhere? Even if, in your own experience, it was all a cod with the Catholic Church... It would STILL be less likely to happen here than elsewhere.

Religion mate. It's the biggest cod on earth.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 21-12-2019 10:59PM

beejee wrote: »

….Is it not quite strange, very strange, that a supposedly staunch catholic/Christian country like Ireland could vote for such a contrary thing?

First... It was simply a case that social mindsets change rapidly. So rapidly that you can change an overall social outlook a complete 180° in, what, 20 years? Impressive.

Firstly, the supposedly covers your first point

Secondly, attitudes have been changing for a lot more than 20 years.

21-12-2019 11:16PM

One of the main reasons was decriminalization and people being more open about the fact that they were actually gay and not hiding it like in the past. Plus the fact that people generally live and let live and don't like to see people being discriminated against.

You are always going to have people who aren't like this but they tend to be the minority who have issues with everything and see conspiracies, something evil etc.

cloudatlas · 21-12-2019 11:47PM

I agree with all your points. I would add that there was a ground swell of more visibility in the media and in general. The campaign was about telling stories and connecting with people gaining empathy and challenging thought processes. I think peer pressure had a big part to play as well some folks changed their mind and suddenly it wasn't the cool thing to be homophobic, I saw it happen with people from school who were homophobic, someone they cared about said it wasn't acceptable anymore or they were close to someone gay. The repeal the 8th campaigners learned from this and made personal stories a way of communicating with the public. This is where I see the trans movement as failing, they don't understand that many people don't know any trans people and they don't try to explain their stand point it's more a belligerent reaction to any opposition and this gets the backs up of many.

Snow Garden · 21-12-2019 11:52PM

It was the decent thing to do. Simple as that.

It made some people very very happy without affecting anyone else.

Irish people are a lot less brainwashed nowadays.

21-12-2019 11:57PM

whatawaster81 wrote: »

No. This catholic country you speak of that would be opposed to same sex marriage are not the people I know and not the people I grew up with, not the family I was reared in. It's the ruling class passing laws to keep every one in line with how they how they see the world. Finally they gave the people a chance to use their voice. Also young people used the opportunity to vote.

Dunno where or when you grew up but I grew up in the 70s and 80s and gay sex of any sort would be seen as a mortal sin by most catholics.

beejee · 21-12-2019 11:59PM

Snow Garden wrote: »

It was the decent thing to do. Simple as that.

It made some people very very happy without affecting anyone else.

Irish people are a lot less brainwashed nowadays.

So why here and not elsewhere?

Why not Poland, equally Catholic at some point? Why not Italy?

Especially, why not the USA or UK? I'd argue they are far less religious on the whole.

beejee · 22-12-2019 12:01AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Dunno where or when you grew up but I grew up in the 70s and 80s and gay sex of any sort would be seen as a mortal sin by most catholics.

That's my whole sticking point, against such widespread dislike, it's suddenly flipped to "oh you don't like the gays, Eh?!"

It's a bit mental

Maybe we're all just easily led to the tune of the day.

22-12-2019 12:02AM

Snow Garden wrote: »

It was the decent thing to do. Simple as that.

It made some people very very happy without affecting anyone else.

Irish people are a lot less brainwashed nowadays.

I agree with this. I was way more surprised with the overwhelming support for the abortion referendum - this is far less clear cut as a universal good like gay marriage is. I mean most people didn't even seem to question it or think about it much at all. I mean on balance some form of abortion is needed but the way it was just thrown out of the constitution and left to politicians to decide concerned me greatly. The fact that an unborn child now has no rights at all in our.constitution is not good at all.

I actually think most Irish people are easily brainwashed and don't do much critical thinking at all.

Most of them still report as catholic on the census despite not ever going inside a church except for baptisms weddings and funerals.

22-12-2019 12:06AM

beejee wrote: »

Maybe we're all just easily led to the tune of the day.

This is it. Its the same type of people condemning the gays in the 70s who are now shouting homophobe at people who for whatever reason - e.g..religious - don't agree with gay marriage. It's all about social status.

beejee · 22-12-2019 12:13AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with this. I was way more surprised with the overwhelming support for the abortion referendum - this is far less clear cut as a universal good like gay marriage is. I mean most people didn't even seem to question it or think about it much at all. I mean on balance some form of abortion is needed but the way it was just thrown out of the constitution and left to politicians to decide concerned me greatly.

I actually think most Irish people are easily brainwashed and don't do much critical thinking at all.

Most of them still report as catholic on the census despite not ever going inside a church except for baptisms weddings and funerals.

It's kinda worrying to be honest. Because it must equally be visible to outsiders that we're a "soft touch".

Maybe it's a historical thing.

We went from control under the British empire to the catholic church in less time than you can say "huckleberry"

Then the Catholic Church is barely out the door and in comes the world's most popular trends via the Internet. Not popular enough to enact in any other country, oh no,
but us fecklesseejits will do it, no sweat.

Meanwhile, other countries have an established identity based on self determination for centuries in some cases. They're no fools, in other words.

It's a poor show to be a globally recognised submissive, just waiting to be told when to jump.

I'm sceptical, in other words, of any and all "decisions" Irish people make as a group.

Cody montana · 22-12-2019 12:15AM

Welcome to democracy.

Snow Garden · 22-12-2019 12:15AM

beejee wrote: »

So why here and not elsewhere?

Why not Poland, equally Catholic at some point? Why not Italy?

Especially, why not the USA or UK? I'd argue they are far less religious on the whole.

Give it time. It will happen.

beejee · 22-12-2019 12:20AM

Snow Garden wrote: »

Give it time. It will happen.

Daydreams, in my opinion.

We jumped in wholesale while others watched.

When the world turns again, as it always does, we'll be the first on the bandwagon again.

It's embarrassing, really.

Change "ireland" to "trendland" and be done with it

Marriage referendum, odd or not?

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