Marriage referendum, odd or not?

beejee

Somebody posted in another thread some supposed society-wide manipulation by certain groups. Different issue to the gay marriage thing, but it got me thinking, and not for the first time.

Is it not quite strange, very strange, that a supposedly staunch catholic/Christian country like Ireland could vote for such a contrary thing?

I have a few ideas myself, ranging from most unlikely to downright social experimentation/manipulation.

First... It was simply a case that social mindsets change rapidly. So rapidly that you can change an overall social outlook a complete 180° in, what, 20 years? Impressive.

Second... An elastic band effect, a rebellious backlash against a harsh church? Springing from one "extreme" to another "extreme", only to find a middle ground later?

Third...That the harsh indoctrination of the Catholic Church singled us out for experimentation. "hey, this small bunch of people know how to take orders without questions, with deep media penetration, let's see what happens"

It's not just the marriage referendum, but similar things where Ireland is a" first" in one regard or another.

It all just seems so counterintuitive for Ireland of all places. Even in France, when it came to gay marriage, it's still a country that prides itself on secular outlooks.

So, to get an opinion from a broad, even if shallow, touchstone, what's after hours thoughts?

Strikes as a strange outcome? Nothing more? Perfectly expected to go from one opinion to, practically, the polar opposite? Maybe there are similar precedents of which I'm unaware?

anewme

Merry Christmas!

whatawaster81

Welcome to 2020. Nothing to see here. Carry on.

corner of hells

beejee wrote: »

Somebody posted in another thread some supposed society-wide manipulation by certain groups. Different issue to the gay marriage thing, but it got me thinking, and not for the first time.

Is it not quite strange, very strange, that a supposedly staunch catholic/Christian country like Ireland could vote for such a contrary thing?

I have a few ideas myself, ranging from most unlikely to downright social experimentation/manipulation.

First... It was simply a case that social mindsets change rapidly. So rapidly that you can change an overall social outlook a complete 180° in, what, 20 years? Impressive.

Second... An elastic band effect, a rebellious backlash against a harsh church? Springing from one "extreme" to another "extreme", only to find a middle ground later?

Third...That the harsh indoctrination of the Catholic Church singled us out for experimentation. "hey, this small bunch of people know how to take orders without questions, with deep media penetration, let's see what happens"

It's not just the marriage referendum, but similar things where Ireland is a" first" in one regard or another.

It all just seems so counterintuitive for Ireland of all places. Even in France, when it came to gay marriage, it's still a country that prides itself on secular outlooks.

So, to get an opinion from a broad, even if shallow, touchstone, what's after hours thoughts?

Strikes as a strange outcome? Nothing more? Perfectly expected to go from one opinion to, practically, the polar opposite? Maybe there are similar precedents of which I'm unaware?

I'm selling a Nissan Qashqai in the new year, 110k in the clock , nct till Sept 20 , 2018 reg.

beejee

whatawaster81 wrote: »

Welcome to 2020. Nothing to see here. Carry on.

You don't find it at least noteworthy that you and the nation around you can have its opinions flipped in such a relative short amount of time?

If so, what thing will you be doing next in your lifetime that goes completely against the grain? Could be anything, really!

Even the first few replies are of the "let's ignore" variety. Strange, when a simple "Yeah, strange alright" or "no, not strange at all" would do.

Instead, you could put the tinfoil hat on and think something outrageous, like people want to avoid talking on the subject at all

Raconteuse

I think it's a combination of the first two. A young population also. If you remember back to the X case, the Bishop Casey scandal (not that what he did was so wrong but it was at odds with what was expected of him - of course the only thing exceptional about it was he got caught), Fr Brendan Smyth, the industrial schools revelations, Ferns... what had been bubbling just boiled over.

Wibbs

I would say a rejection of the "catholic" past had a fair chunk to do with it. That and more people having more information than they ever had. Go back 40 years and unless you were on "the Pipe TV" in Dublin or had a huge feck off aerial pretty much all you heard and read was locally filtered through the state/church/status quo(not the band... ). A big chunk of younger people coming through another reason. From about the mid 80's it was evident and IIRC at one time Ireland had one of the youngest demographics in Europe.

It's amazing what happens when religion's grip on a nation's windpipe is released.

beejee

Raconteuse wrote: »

I think it's a combination of the first two. A young population also. If you remember back to the X case, the Bishop Casey scandal (not that what he did was so wrong but it was at odds with what was expected of him - of course the only thing exceptional about it was he got caught), Fr Brendan Smyth, the industrial schools revelations, Ferns... what had been bubbling just boiled over.

Seems reasonable, however I wouldn't go too much with my first guess. Such scale of change is quite unusual, is it not? Why Ireland before the UK, or USA, or whoever?

I can certainly see the "backlash" thing alright.

But, I'm also very sceptical of media manipulation and vested interests, at large (not just this issue). I still find it hard to believe that such a rapid social upheaval could occur in isolation. Would be interesting to see others opinions too.

whatawaster81

beejee wrote: »

You don't find it at least noteworthy that you and the nation around you can have its opinions flipped in such a relative short amount of time?

If so, what thing will you be doing next in your lifetime that goes completely against the grain? Could be anything, really!

Even the first few replies are of the "let's ignore" variety. Strange, when a simple "Yeah, strange alright" or "no, not strange at all" would do.

Instead, you could put the tinfoil hat on and think something outrageous, like people want to avoid talking on the subject at all

No. This catholic country you speak of that would be opposed to same sex marriage are not the people I know and not the people I grew up with, not the family I was reared in. It's the ruling class passing laws to keep every one in line with how they how they see the world. Finally they gave the people a chance to use their voice. Also young people used the opportunity to vote.

HappyAsLarE

Let’s not forget that a third of the voting population didn’t vote Yes.

MrAbyss

I voted for Gay marriage because I hate Christianity with a passion and especially the Irish Catholic Church. Same for abortion.

I am a Pagan and I see Christianity the same way a Jew sees National Socialism.

I long for the day when abortions are performed on the altar at the PRO Cathedral by two homosexual doctors who just got engaged.

beejee

Wibbs wrote: »

I would say a rejection of the "catholic" past had a fair chunk to do with it. That and more people having more information than they ever had. Go back 40 years and unless you were on "the Pipe TV" in Dublin or had a huge feck off aerial pretty much all you heard and read was locally filtered through the state/church/status quo(not the band... ). A big chunk of younger people coming through another reason. From about the mid 80's it was evident and IIRC at one time Ireland had one of the youngest demographics in Europe.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's amazing what happens when religion's grip on a nation's windpipe is released.

I can see that. But wouldn't that be far more likely to have happened in any number of countries before Ireland??

Why Ireland in particular? Again, even taking into account a waning grasp of the Catholic Church.

Surely, you'd imagine a non-religious country would be far more open to the idea, right?

Akin to a fitness freak turning into an obese slob, it just seems counterintuitive to go from one all the way to the other.

beejee

whatawaster81 wrote: »

No. This catholic country you speak of that would be opposed to same sex marriage are not the people I know and not the people I grew up with, not the family I was reared in. It's the ruling class passing laws to keep every one in line with how they how they see the world. Finally they gave the people a chance to use their voice. Also young people used the opportunity to vote.

So why here, and not elsewhere? Even if, in your own experience, it was all a cod with the Catholic Church... It would STILL be less likely to happen here than elsewhere.

beejee

MrAbyss wrote: »

I voted for Gay marriage because I hate Christianity with a passion and especially the Irish Catholic Church. Same for abortion.

I am a Pagan and I see Christianity the same way a Jew sees National Socialism.

I long for the day when abortions are performed on the altar at the PRO Cathedral by two homosexual doctors who just got engaged.

Well balanced reasoning like yours is the foundation of democracy.

"do the opposite"

Raconteuse

beejee wrote: »

Seems reasonable, however I wouldn't go too much with my first guess. Such scale of change is quite unusual, is it not? Why Ireland before the UK, or USA, or whoever?

I can certainly see the "backlash" thing alright.

But, I'm also very sceptical of media manipulation and vested interests, at large (not just this issue). I still find it hard to believe that such a rapid social upheaval could occur in isolation. Would be interesting to see others opinions too.

Well the UK and U.S weren't under the grip of the church like Ireland was. Very liberal in places too.

MrAbyss wrote: »

I voted for Gay marriage because I hate Christianity with a passion and especially the Irish Catholic Church. Same for abortion.

I am a Pagan and I see Christianity the same way a Jew sees National Socialism.

I long for the day when abortions are performed on the altar at the PRO Cathedral by two homosexual doctors who just got engaged.

I lolled (thought you were serious until the last paragraph :pac:).

Better Than Christ

There were no reasonable arguments against it, just vague Helen Lovejoy nonsense from disingenuous religious extremists who wouldn't ordinarily care about the welfare of children. Even the Catholic Church itself didn't put up much of a public fight against it. I don't buy into the idea that it was a reaction against the church and its various transgressions and crimes - I know lots of committed Catholics who voted 'Yes' simply because it was the decent thing to do.

whatawaster81

beejee wrote: »

So why here, and not elsewhere? Even if, in your own experience, it was all a cod with the Catholic Church... It would STILL be less likely to happen here than elsewhere.

Religion mate. It's the biggest cod on earth.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

beejee wrote: »

….Is it not quite strange, very strange, that a supposedly staunch catholic/Christian country like Ireland could vote for such a contrary thing?

First... It was simply a case that social mindsets change rapidly. So rapidly that you can change an overall social outlook a complete 180° in, what, 20 years? Impressive.

Firstly, the supposedly covers your first point

Secondly, attitudes have been changing for a lot more than 20 years.

One of the main reasons was decriminalization and people being more open about the fact that they were actually gay and not hiding it like in the past. Plus the fact that people generally live and let live and don't like to see people being discriminated against.

You are always going to have people who aren't like this but they tend to be the minority who have issues with everything and see conspiracies, something evil etc.

cloudatlas

I agree with all your points. I would add that there was a ground swell of more visibility in the media and in general. The campaign was about telling stories and connecting with people gaining empathy and challenging thought processes. I think peer pressure had a big part to play as well some folks changed their mind and suddenly it wasn't the cool thing to be homophobic, I saw it happen with people from school who were homophobic, someone they cared about said it wasn't acceptable anymore or they were close to someone gay. The repeal the 8th campaigners learned from this and made personal stories a way of communicating with the public. This is where I see the trans movement as failing, they don't understand that many people don't know any trans people and they don't try to explain their stand point it's more a belligerent reaction to any opposition and this gets the backs up of many.

Snow Garden

It was the decent thing to do. Simple as that.

It made some people very very happy without affecting anyone else.

Irish people are a lot less brainwashed nowadays.

whatawaster81

whatawaster81 wrote: »

No. This catholic country you speak of that would be opposed to same sex marriage are not the people I know and not the people I grew up with, not the family I was reared in. It's the ruling class passing laws to keep every one in line with how they how they see the world. Finally they gave the people a chance to use their voice. Also young people used the opportunity to vote.

Dunno where or when you grew up but I grew up in the 70s and 80s and gay sex of any sort would be seen as a mortal sin by most catholics.

beejee

Snow Garden wrote: »

It was the decent thing to do. Simple as that.

It made some people very very happy without affecting anyone else.

Irish people are a lot less brainwashed nowadays.

So why here and not elsewhere?

Why not Poland, equally Catholic at some point? Why not Italy?

Especially, why not the USA or UK? I'd argue they are far less religious on the whole.

beejee

Deleted User wrote: »

Dunno where or when you grew up but I grew up in the 70s and 80s and gay sex of any sort would be seen as a mortal sin by most catholics.

That's my whole sticking point, against such widespread dislike, it's suddenly flipped to "oh you don't like the gays, Eh?!"

It's a bit mental

Maybe we're all just easily led to the tune of the day.

Snow Garden

Snow Garden wrote: »

It was the decent thing to do. Simple as that.

It made some people very very happy without affecting anyone else.

Irish people are a lot less brainwashed nowadays.

I agree with this. I was way more surprised with the overwhelming support for the abortion referendum - this is far less clear cut as a universal good like gay marriage is. I mean most people didn't even seem to question it or think about it much at all. I mean on balance some form of abortion is needed but the way it was just thrown out of the constitution and left to politicians to decide concerned me greatly. The fact that an unborn child now has no rights at all in our.constitution is not good at all.


I actually think most Irish people are easily brainwashed and don't do much critical thinking at all.

Most of them still report as catholic on the census despite not ever going inside a church except for baptisms weddings and funerals.

beejee

beejee wrote: »

Maybe we're all just easily led to the tune of the day.

This is it. Its the same type of people condemning the gays in the 70s who are now shouting homophobe at people who for whatever reason - e.g..religious - don't agree with gay marriage. It's all about social status.

beejee

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with this. I was way more surprised with the overwhelming support for the abortion referendum - this is far less clear cut as a universal good like gay marriage is. I mean most people didn't even seem to question it or think about it much at all. I mean on balance some form of abortion is needed but the way it was just thrown out of the constitution and left to politicians to decide concerned me greatly.

I actually think most Irish people are easily brainwashed and don't do much critical thinking at all.

Most of them still report as catholic on the census despite not ever going inside a church except for baptisms weddings and funerals.

It's kinda worrying to be honest. Because it must equally be visible to outsiders that we're a "soft touch".

Maybe it's a historical thing.

We went from control under the British empire to the catholic church in less time than you can say "huckleberry"

Then the Catholic Church is barely out the door and in comes the world's most popular trends via the Internet. Not popular enough to enact in any other country, oh no,
but us fecklesseejits will do it, no sweat.

Meanwhile, other countries have an established identity based on self determination for centuries in some cases. They're no fools, in other words.

It's a poor show to be a globally recognised submissive, just waiting to be told when to jump.

I'm sceptical, in other words, of any and all "decisions" Irish people make as a group.

Cody montana

Welcome to democracy.

Snow Garden

beejee wrote: »

So why here and not elsewhere?

Why not Poland, equally Catholic at some point? Why not Italy?

Especially, why not the USA or UK? I'd argue they are far less religious on the whole.

Give it time. It will happen.

beejee

Snow Garden wrote: »

Give it time. It will happen.

Daydreams, in my opinion.

We jumped in wholesale while others watched.

When the world turns again, as it always does, we'll be the first on the bandwagon again.

It's embarrassing, really.

Change "ireland" to "trendland" and be done with it

Better Than Christ

beejee wrote: »

I'm sceptical, in other words, of any and all "decisions" Irish people make as a group.

What way did you vote (in the marriage equality referendum) yourself? And why did you vote that way?

beejee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmTahAali90

That's us, except we follow through on each flipping idea!

beejee

Better Than Christ wrote: »

What way did you vote (in the marriage equality referendum) yourself? And why did you vote that way?

I didn't vote, wasn't here.

Better Than Christ

beejee wrote: »

I didn't vote, wasn't here.

Ok then. What way would you have voted?

Raconteuse

Why would Irish people be any more bandwagon jumping than other nationalities? It does a disservice to us to say it's just internet trends - it's not that shallow. Views were changing before the internet gained such a foothold.

Conor Bourke

Why do you consider the concept of same sex marriage as extreme?

Airyfairy12

Rejection of the church played a massive part, honestly id get on board with pretty much anything that separates Ireland from the church, I cant even listen to a priest or a nun and anyone on my social media - particularly people under 40 that post religious statuses - im sorry to say it lowers my opinion of them slightly - maybe not the most open minded of views and I dont expect anyone to agree with me but im just being honest. I have such a low view of Christianity - it verges on intolerance. Anything that takes us away from that abusive, horrible institute that controlled the country for so long - is a very positive thing imo.
Remembering hearing about the babies of Tuam still makes my blood boil. F*ck religion.

Secondly - reasons for voting in the marriage referendum and abortion are simply that it makes sense to do so. Why should consenting adults not be permitted to marry who they love? Its a mad concept that I now find so strange to think it was ever outlawed, such a strange thing to actively prevent people from doing and such a weird thing to judge others on, like really? why was homophobia ever a thing?
Social media and the wider use of the internet helped in changing attitudes and creating more tolerance and acceptance of diversity.
I do remember a big social change in attitudes when everyone started using social media - Im of the bebo and myspace era when internet and social media became popular when I was a teenager and remember attitudes before and after, they definitely brought a change in attitudes.

beejee

Raconteuse wrote: »

Why would Irish people be any more bandwagon jumping than other nationalities? It does a disservice to us to say it's just internet trends - it's not that shallow. Views were changing before the internet gained such a foothold.

Well, how many other countries have jumped on it since?

The places that produce all the media we consume, including social media? Nuh uh, not them.

Funny.

beejee

Cornelius Crow wrote: »

Why do you consider the concept of same sex marriage as extreme?

Do you consider gay sex to be a mortal sin, as it was believed within most people lifetimes here in ireland?

If you consider that "extreme", well there's your answer.

beejee

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Ok then. What way would you have voted?

Why, what difference does it make?

Who cares what way you personally voted either, or didn't. It's not the discussion.

Its why the nation flip flopped, that's where my interest lies.

dxhound2005

It's only when people are dead that they will find out whether being a Catholic was worth it. There might not be anything better on the other side for Catholics than what awaits Muslims or Hindus. Or there might not be anything at all. Who knows.

Legal recognition of same sex marriage is a very modern and a very European construct, less than 20 years since Holland became the first. Ireland being a modern European country has fallen in line and should not be characterised as some sort of outlier. Other European countries will follow.

But only one Asian country and one African country have done the same, so Europe is out of step with the vast majority of people in the world.

Better Than Christ

beejee wrote: »

Why, what difference does it make?

Who cares what way you personally voted either, or didn't. It's not the discussion.

Its why the nation flip flopped, that's where my interest lies.

Why won't you answer the question?

What way would you have voted?

beejee

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Rejection of the church played a massive part, honestly id get on board with pretty much anything that separates Ireland from the church, I cant even listen to a priest or a nun and anyone on my social media - particularly people under 40 that post religious statuses - im sorry to say it lowers my opinion of them slightly - maybe not the most open minded of views and I dont expect anyone to agree with me but im just being honest. I have such a low view of Christianity - it verges on intolerance. Anything that takes us away from that abusive, horrible institute that controlled the country for so long - is a very positive thing imo.
Remembering hearing about the babies of Tuam still makes my blood boil. F*ck religion.

Secondly - reasons for voting in the marriage referendum and abortion are simply that it makes sense to do so. Why should consenting adults not be permitted to marry who they love? Its a mad concept that I now find so strange to think it was ever outlawed, such a strange thing to actively prevent people from doing and such a weird thing to judge others on, like really? why was homophobia ever a thing?
Social media and the wider use of the internet helped in changing attitudes and creating more tolerance and acceptance of diversity.
I do remember a big social change in attitudes when everyone started using social media - Im of the bebo and myspace era when internet and social media became popular when I was a teenager and remember attitudes before and after, they definitely brought a change in attitudes.

To your first point, sure, I can understand. I think it's ridiculous to vote from one extreme to the other "just because", but I understand.

To your second point, why us, and not others then? If it's so entirely logical and simple, why Ireland and not much more established societies?

beejee

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Why won't you answer the question?

What way would you have voted?

I literally just explained.

beejee

beejee wrote: »

So why here and not elsewhere?

Why not Poland, equally Catholic at some point? Why not Italy?

Especially, why not the USA or UK? I'd argue they are far less religious on the whole.

We weren't the first by a long shot, and gay marriage was legalised in Massachusetts in 2004, with other states following some not, comparing us to the states is not really appropriate due to states rights, but I believe that their supreme court ruled in 2015 that all states have to allow it.

Poland still has the church heavily influencing the government, trying to make up the time that they missed out on during communism.

Better Than Christ

beejee wrote: »

I literally just explained.

Yes or no. Simple question.

What way would you have voted?

beejee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It's only when people are dead that they will find out whether being a Catholic was worth it. There might not be anything better on the other side for Catholics than what awaits Muslims or Hindus. Or there might not be anything at all. Who knows.

Legal recognition of same sex marriage is a very modern and a very European construct, less than 20 years since Holland became the first. Ireland being a modern European country has fallen in line and should not be characterised as some sort of outlier. Other European countries will follow.

But only one Asian country and one African country have done the same, so Europe is out of step with the vast majority of people in the world.

You're saying we shouldn't be considered an outlier, then go on to demonstrate how we are an outlier

beejee

beejee wrote: »

Well, how many other countries have jumped on it since?

The places that produce all the media we consume, including social media? Nuh uh, not them.

Funny.

Didn't realise the Netherlands produced all the media we consume.

beejee

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Yes or no. Simple question.

What way would you have voted?

I would have voted yes if the wind was blowing East on the day. No, if the turnips faced South.

Both equally add to the conversation, don't you think?

beejee

DubInMeath wrote: »

Didn't realise the Netherlands produced all the media we consume.

Tis true, but an exception remains an exception.