Do we have free will?

topper75 · 18-12-2019 06:27PM

Nobody really believes in fate and destiny. If you really did believe such, you wouldn't bother even pulling back the duvet in the morning.

There may be predictable reactions to circumstance. But they are reactions just the same.

18-12-2019 06:54PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

There's a lad who got 10a's in the junior cert in my school and I wonder, if he switched lives, parents, homes, and friends with one of the waster lads, would he have been as successful? I think not.

Everything is predetermined

I barely passed the leaving certificate. Whereas ten years later, I was in the top 1% of my MBA graduate year from a good university.

Everything is what you make of it. Your vision is limited to what you read, explore, and whether you apply that knowledge to yourself. Without vision you'll be stuck with the expectations of other people, and your national culture. Put into a box based on your early performance. With vision, you'll be free to do whatever your bloody want because you'll know that you can learn and develop yourself without even attending university... There's far more to the world and living within it, than your experiences so far.

topper75 wrote: »

Nobody really believes in fate and destiny. If you really did believe such, you wouldn't bother even pulling back the duvet in the morning.

There may be predictable reactions to circumstance. But they are reactions just the same.

Plenty of people believe in predestination, fate, the hand of God, etc. That there is some kind of plan to their lives, beyond their own decisions (or rather that their decisions fit the "plan). Why wouldn't you bother even pulling back the duvet in the morning? It's not as if the plan doesn't require your involvement.... That's the logic anyway.

I don't buy into it myself, but I've heard many people over the years talk about destiny. Usually with relation to meeting someone for love but also for their expectations about career/success.

Beasty · 18-12-2019 07:54PM

I reckon it will cost me at least 500 quid to get a will made up - no such thing as a free lunch!

sbsquarepants · 19-12-2019 09:18AM

topper75 wrote: »

Nobody really believes in fate and destiny. If you really did believe such, you wouldn't bother even pulling back the duvet in the morning.

.

Exactly.

If you truly believe that the lord above has a plan for you and it will play out the way he wants regardless, close your eyes and walk across a busy dual carriage way.

If you're scared to do that - you don't actually have faith in gods plan for you, you're just parroting phrases you heard somewhere!

My own take on it is if this actually was his plan for me, he's getting such a kick in the bollix when I see him! An almighty kick in fact, which is quite fitting:D

19-12-2019 09:40AM

It’s kind of sad reading this thread and seeing success measured by career, money, exam results etc.

This kind of western society version of success is what leads so many to early graves.

Success can be many things. A person with mental health issues getting up in the morning. An alcoholic asking for help. Been a good parent.

People should really focus more on finding happiness.

mr_fegelien · 19-12-2019 02:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s kind of sad reading this thread and seeing success measured by career, money, exam results etc.

This kind of western society version of success is what leads so many to early graves.

Success can be many things. A person with mental health issues getting up in the morning. An alcoholic asking for help. Been a good parent.

People should really focus more on finding happiness.

I've heard this saying, "Having money doesn't guarantee happiness but not having money can make you 100% unhappy".

The fact is that academica success, and career success dictate a lot in your life if you don't want to be constrained in your opportunities.

19-12-2019 02:36PM

Beasty wrote: »

I reckon it will cost me at least 500 quid to get a will made up - no such thing as a free lunch!

Any funny plans for it? I like the user on boards who plans to be buried with his phone but his solicitor is told in the will to secretly keep the SIM card and start texting people a couple of weeks later.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 19-12-2019 03:18PM

Of course they have free will. Their circumstances don’t prevent them from doing something, it might influence it but it doesn’t dictate how a person acts. Free will does.

What you are trying to figure out is whether nature or nurture influences a persons destiny. Free will has nothing to do with it.

Fr_Dougal · 19-12-2019 03:29PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I've heard this saying, "Having money doesn't guarantee happiness but not having money can make you 100% unhappy".

The fact is that academica success, and career success dictate a lot in your life if you don't want to be constrained in your opportunities.

You’ve heard this, you’ve heard that, you make up facts that aren’t actually facts.

Is it a case that you are trying to come up with as many obstacles as you can to justify failure, or not having to apply yourself?

We can all come up with 100s of excuses not to get out of bed in the morning, 100s of excuses not to work, 100s of excuses not to try. But we have to, we’re adults with responsibilities.

Might be different for people who have no responsibilities, live at home, have everything handed to them. Washing and ironing done, phone credit paid for.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 19-12-2019 03:35PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I've heard this saying, "Having money doesn't guarantee happiness but not having money can make you 100% unhappy".

The fact is that academica success, and career success dictate a lot in your life if you don't want to be constrained in your opportunities.

Who do you "hear" these things from?

Many people live in poor circumstances and are still happy in their lives. My own family were poor but, as a family, we had a very happy life and cut our cloth to our means.

If you measure success, happiness, and fulfilment by academic or career success alone then you have a very narrow view of life.

I sense you're looking for vindication, or excuses, for not getting on with living and taking advantage of the opportunities being offered to you.

ILoveYourVibes · 19-12-2019 03:48PM

why don't you do a philosophy degree mr feg?

What is free will? Is free will simply doing what isn't caused by someone else? Or does it just mean doing what you want?

Determinism vrs Compatabilsm.

Is there free will?
Its interesting because if you say NO. That leaves a lot of uncomfortable moral consequences. Can you say a murderer had no free will as to whether they killed someone?

Similarly can you say someone who killed in self defense to save their life had the same degree of free will that the above 1st murderer did?

The second murderer you could say had exactly the same amount of free will but rather dire consequences. The 1st murderer had every incentive not to kill avoiding jail social shame etc.

Say the 1st murderer was raised in a cave by an evil genius that taught them murder was righteous from when they were a baby and they are only released into the world at the age of 21. And they were told by the evil genius who raised them in the cave upon leaving not to listen to the outside world and to kill someone. Does this person have free will?

PoisonIvyBelle · 19-12-2019 04:28PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s kind of sad reading this thread and seeing success measured by career, money, exam results etc.

This kind of western society version of success is what leads so many to early graves.

Success can be many things. A person with mental health issues getting up in the morning. An alcoholic asking for help. Been a good parent.

People should really focus more on finding happiness.

I don't think anyone is saying you need to be minted with an MA to be happy. And of course all of the things you mention indicate success in life, I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.

Whatever happiness means to you is what you should work towards. And a lot of the time, having a decent education and enough money to support yourself are important factors in achieving whatever goals you have in your pursuit of that happiness.

Yes, it would be great if we lived in a less capitalist society and everyone had the freedom to do what they love and still live comfortably without making sacrifices along the way. But society isn't going to change overnight, if it ever does. So the best thing you can do right now is work it to your advantage and find a way to be happy in spite of the obstacles in your way. It's called being realistic.

Dr Strange · 19-12-2019 04:30PM

If I have no free will then how can I be morally culpable, I wonder?

ILoveYourVibes · 19-12-2019 04:32PM

PoisonIvyBelle wrote: »

I don't think anyone is saying you need to be minted with an MA to be happy. And of course all of the things you mention indicate success in life, I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.

.

Sure you do! You also need a wife with two kids and a hot mistress on the side ...and you need a big house .....and a merc..apartment in france to bring the mistress!

WrenBoy · 19-12-2019 04:42PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Of course we have free will, we have no choice

Beat me to it :pac:

super_furry · 19-12-2019 04:59PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Time is an illusion. Everything has happened, will happen and is happening simultaneously.

Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks.

ILoveYourVibes · 19-12-2019 05:14PM

super_furry wrote: »

Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks.

IT SURE DOES! :mad:

vriesmays · 19-12-2019 06:01PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Everything is predetermined

Everything is the choice they made.

Capt'n Midnight · 21-12-2019 01:10PM

ressem · 21-12-2019 02:25PM

The way our decisions are made are influenced by our past external interactions.
Like the guideline about 1000 repetitions to become accomplished at a skill. Without some feedback, we just burn-in the bad habits.

There's plenty of people in jobs where competence and conscientiousness are expected that cannot be trusted to flush a toilet, nor clean up after they piss all over a toilet seat that they couldn't be bothered to take a second to lift.

It's done in isolation of a stall, so there is no feedback & the practice continues, until maybe in future they have to clean up, usually after others; or observe someone they care about having to fix their mess and feel embarrassment (like most learn in play school).

And apparently conscientiousness is more strongly linked to culture than gender.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

So we deliberately skip to a random page after 72 in protest (or just page 57 and meet pg 72 later). Rebel.

Machinations of a predetermined universe. Pfft. So if you have a universe sized storage device capable of duplicating everything to a quantum level you could fast forward / rewind it to know the future and past. Yeah good luck with that thought experiment. Though it would be interesting to see if it was a solar system copy, how quickly it would diverge and mispredict.

BeerWolf · 21-12-2019 02:39PM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Everything is predetermined?

Bullshit.

If you come from a poor background and don’t have the same start at others, it can be more difficult. But if you get off your hole and apply yourself you can be a success.

Of course much easier to wallow in self pity, and blame everyone else for your own failure.

Well ****, you just explained Ireland's growing epidemic of suing culture that puts America to shame now!

Too many lazy ****s chancing their luck at pay day claims!

the dark phantom · 21-12-2019 02:50PM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Everything is predetermined?

Bullshit.

If you come from a poor background and don’t have the same start at others, it can be more difficult. But if you get off your hole and apply yourself you can be a success.

Of course much easier to wallow in self pity, and blame everyone else for your own failure.

Every word you wrote there reminds me of the attitude an old friend of mine had, He didn't come from the happiest or wealthiest family, he didn't have the best of brains either but he had a lot of cop on, his dad always had a good work ethic, so he left the estate after his leaving done a few courses and now runs a successful business and lives well away from his old estate.

Bobblehats · 21-12-2019 04:10PM

super_furry wrote: »

Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks.

Gravity is a terrestrial construct.

Lonesomerhodes · 21-12-2019 04:36PM

Never had never will,

Try building a home in a field in a remote part of the country or even put up a tent.

Council be onto you n a heartbeat!.

21-12-2019 04:37PM

Yes, we have freedom of the will.

There are more than enough quantum uncertainties that, at the very least, do nothing to support a predicted unidirectional system.

Moreover, as highly conscious creatures, we are fully aware of our actions / the consequences thereof. That awareness must account for something.

Tie that into the uncertainty within physical systems in the universe and you have strong grounds for the claim that we have no choice but to have free will.

Also, there is something really quite bizarre in the belief that the universe was created and determined, such that human beings would exist to question whether it was determined. The fact we can ask that question speaks volumes.

take everything · 21-12-2019 04:42PM

To assume free will exists is to assume some supercausality when it comes to human beings.

We are of the physical realm and therefore are dictated by physical laws. Anything else strikes me as insane hubris.

Not that we can't act like things aren't predetermined. Indeed that would be the natural way to go about things.

No free will isn't necessarily depressing. But knowledge of the exact details of how we are constrained would be quite depressing.
I doubt such knowledge would ever be available to anyone. This ignorance is essentially "free will" I suppose.

Even if you had full knowledge you couldn't still escape the physical realm. So yeah, everyone is a relatively dumb integral part of the universe is how I see it.

Loafing Oaf · 21-12-2019 04:43PM

super_furry wrote: »

Free Willy! He means do we have Free Willy.

His willy standing up of its own accord is probably what he's really worried about...

Bobblehats · 21-12-2019 04:46PM

I already did the free willy thing. They told me to zip it and get back in my box

The Tetrarch · 21-12-2019 04:52PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Or do our circumstances influence a lot? I saw a few of my classmates this week and they were basically the same as they were in secondary school.
The smart lads are now in Trinity, UCD, doing j1's in America whereas the "wasters" as the teachers put it are going to the pub every day, selling weed etc..

Did the wasters decide to study, get good results, and go to college?

bodhrandude · 21-12-2019 04:52PM

Rush did back in 1980 .

Do we have free will?

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