Do we have free will?

mr_fegelien

Or do our circumstances influence a lot? I saw a few of my classmates this week and they were basically the same as they were in secondary school.

The smart lads are now in Trinity, UCD, doing j1's in America whereas the "wasters" as the teachers put it are going to the pub every day, selling weed etc..

I always thought to myself how unjust it was to call them lazy because it seems that it's where they grew up. All the successful kids in my school grew up in well to do families/areas and they drug using kids grew up in less fortunate areas.

Could these so called waster students just "buckle up" and be as successful as the students from good areas? Not as easily. Nothing to do with intelligence but influence from bad friends and parents.

There's a lad who got 10a's in the junior cert in my school and I wonder, if he switched lives, parents, homes, and friends with one of the waster lads, would he have been as successful? I think not.

Everything is predetermined

Stevieluvsye

Did you get a job yet?

Fr_Dougal

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Or do our circumstances influence a lot? I saw a few of my classmates this week and they were basically the same as they were in secondary school.

The smart lads are now in Trinity, UCD, doing j1's in America whereas the "wasters" as the teachers put it are going to the pub every day, selling weed etc..

I always thought to myself how unjust it was to call them lazy because it seems that it's where they grew up. All the successful kids in my school grew up in well to do families/areas and they drug using kids grew up in less fortunate areas.

Could these so called waster students just "buckle up" and be as successful as the students from good areas? Not as easily. Nothing to do with intelligence but influence from bad friends and parents.

There's a lad who got 10a's in the junior cert in my school and I wonder, if he switched lives, parents, homes, and friends with one of the waster lads, would he have been as successful? I think not.

Everything is predetermined

Everything is predetermined?

Bullshit.

If you come from a poor background and don’t have the same start at others, it can be more difficult. But if you get off your hole and apply yourself you can be a success.

Of course much easier to wallow in self pity, and blame everyone else for your own failure.

sydthebeat

the quality of your threads have gone from poor to dog sh!te

El_Duderino 09

sydthebeat wrote: »

the quality of your threads have gone from poor to dog sh!te

But do they have the free will to create good threads or are they predestined to make dog shyte threads.

Your Face

sydthebeat wrote: »

the quality of your threads have gone from poor to dog sh!te

Use your free will and move on.


Im getting sick of this fashion to slag off the OP every time they post.

sydthebeat

Your Face wrote: »

Use your free will and move on.


Im getting sick of this fashion to slag off the OP every time they post.

quantity over quality, especially when its crap quantity, should get called out every single time.

same way absolutely no one gives a crap about you "getting sick of" anything.

Stevieluvsye

Your Face wrote: »

Use your free will and move on.


Im getting sick of this fashion to slag off the OP every time they post.

The OP is a spoofer, a walter mitty, time and time again he has asked for advice which he receives and then moves on to the next bulls!it thread

Wind your neck back in

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

If you get off your backside, apply yourself to whatever is needed to achieve your goals, stop moping about and looking for things to blame and actually get on with getting on you can succeed.

Free will? Of course you have it. Nothing in this life is predetermined.

I come from a poor background, with no history of progression beyond primary school but I achieved my aims in life. Stop looking for excuses or shortcuts and take all the opportunities life in this country offers.

mr_fegelien

Sara Gigantic Splinter wrote: »

If you get off your backside, apply yourself to whatever is needed to achieve your goals, stop moping about and looking for things to blame and actually get on with getting on you can succeed.

Free will? Of course you have it. Nothing in this life is predetermined.

I come from a poor background, with no history of progression beyond primary school but I achieved my aims in life. Stop looking for excuses or shortcuts and take all the opportunities life in this country offers.

Lol...then why are my classmates who came from less well off areas than the other lads not doing well? AFAIK, only two are in college?

Are you blaming them? Why should they take responsibility?

PoisonIvyBelle

I know plenty of kids I grew up with who were given every opportunity and they turned into pretty ****ty adults (and often "wasters") as a result, mainly due to expecting everything to be handed to them.

Some of the most successful and soundest people I know had to work damn hard to get where they are and they appreciate every single thing they have. Also, by "successful" I mean they made their way on their own and working in areas they either love working in or "don't mind" working in for the sake of having a decent income and a life outside of work, not that they're raking in 6 figure salaries. Although, some are.

Life can be really fcuking hard. Sometimes people are genuinely limited in what they can do for various reasons. And yes, that's unfair. But you can choose to look at it another way and work on building the best life you can with what you have and what you're capable of. That's free will.

Bobblehats

I have free willy. On blu-ray.

With bonus features

PoisonIvyBelle

Bobblehats wrote: »

I have free willy. On blu-ray.

With bonus features

I once won a free willy mug and tshirt for singing a song on the radio.

WHO NEEDS X FACTOR.

sbsquarepants

PoisonIvyBelle wrote: »

I once won a free willy mug and tshirt for singing a song on the radio.

WHO NEEDS X FACTOR.

Is this willy mug for dipping your willy in, like that jaccuzzi thing for your nuts, or is it just a regular mug with a willy on it, could be just a regular dick pic or a famous willy, like Willy O'Dee perhaps? Maybe even Willy's willy for full meta willy madness.

I don't really want to drink from a cock, but my own one would like a nice warm bath sometimes.

Sara Gigantic Splinter

Sara Gigantic Splinter wrote: »

If you get off your backside, apply yourself to whatever is needed to achieve your goals, stop moping about and looking for things to blame and actually get on with getting on you can succeed.

"can" is the important word there. Important enough that it makes me agree with you where I might disagree with others. Many others use the word "will" or "should" instead. Which I think precludes that maybe small % of people who on the surface do everything right - and still do not get out of the rut.

We have to take full responsibility for maximising our potentials and possibilities. But statistically - some will still fail. Through no _discernable_ fault of their own.

Sara Gigantic Splinter wrote: »

Free will? Of course you have it. Nothing in this life is predetermined.

The question inevitably comes down to endless posts about definitions. So I tend to avoid threads on the topic unless I am otherwise at a loose end. But it really does depend what you mean by free will.

I am very far from convinced yet that we have free will in the sense most people on the street seem to mean it though. In fact I am sceptical on many of the concepts related to "I" that the average Joe might be subscribing to too.

But my lack of belief in free will does not impact on my concepts of "taking responsibility" and "making choices" and "justice" and other constructs which pre-suppose we are the thinker of our thoughts and the author of our actions. Which I have noticed many people who get antsy around the "no free will" claim tend to assume is the case.

Sara Gigantic Splinter wrote: »

I come from a poor background, with no history of progression beyond primary school but I achieved my aims in life. Stop looking for excuses or shortcuts and take all the opportunities life in this country offers.

Yay you! Well done on that. My brother was a drop out 4 months before the old Leaving Cert - living homeless on peoples boats in howth for awhile - and he used a combination of the FCA and FAS to drag himself up to his now two car - 4 kids - 6 bedroom house in the country - place in life too.

I respect people not for finding the best or worst way to get to their dreams but finding _their_ way there. He did it in spades. Sounds like you did too.

I am trying to get the same ideas into the heads of some kids I have started a "Jedi School" for recently. Basically I have created a Jedi Curriculum and am teaching them how to be Jedi. But at the core of it - is pretty much the message you have here above.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Time is an illusion. Everything has happened, will happen and is happening simultaneously.

weldoninhio

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Or do our circumstances influence a lot? I saw a few of my classmates this week and they were basically the same as they were in secondary school.

The smart lads are now in Trinity, UCD, doing j1's in America whereas the "wasters" as the teachers put it are going to the pub every day, selling weed etc..

I always thought to myself how unjust it was to call them lazy because it seems that it's where they grew up. All the successful kids in my school grew up in well to do families/areas and they drug using kids grew up in less fortunate areas.

Could these so called waster students just "buckle up" and be as successful as the students from good areas? Not as easily. Nothing to do with intelligence but influence from bad friends and parents.

There's a lad who got 10a's in the junior cert in my school and I wonder, if he switched lives, parents, homes, and friends with one of the waster lads, would he have been as successful? I think not.

Everything is predetermined

I'm reading a book about Warsaw 1944, I was wondering why you named yourself after a high ranking Nazi???

Hans Otto Georg Hermann Fegelein (30 October 1906 – 28 April 1945) was a high-ranking commander in the Waffen-SS of Nazi Germany. He was a member of Adolf Hitler's entourage and brother-in-law to Eva Braun through his marriage to her sister Gretl.

Stevieluvsye

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'm reading a book about Warsaw 1944, I was wondering why you named yourself after a high ranking Nazi???

Hans Otto Georg Hermann Fegelein (30 October 1906 – 28 April 1945) was a high-ranking commander in the Waffen-SS of Nazi Germany. He was a member of Adolf Hitler's entourage and brother-in-law to Eva Braun through his marriage to her sister Gretl.

Ties in with post 5 here. OP is a crackpot

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110899476

mr_fegelien

PoisonIvyBelle wrote: »

Life can be really fcuking hard. Sometimes people are genuinely limited in what they can do for various reasons. And yes, that's unfair. But you can choose to look at it another way and work on building the best life you can with what you have and what you're capable of. That's free will.

How can life be hard?

mr_fegelien

mr_fegelien wrote: »

How can life be hard?

The innocence of it all. You've scarcely had any contact with the real world.

PoisonIvyBelle

mr_fegelien wrote: »

How can life be hard?

I'm at a loss for words.

super_furry

Free Willy! He means do we have Free Willy.

No, sorry Larry McKenna rented out the last copy and he's a prick for bringing back the videos late. We've just got in a copy of Home Alone 3 if you're interested though.

NSAman

Amazing how people end up after school. You could nearly guess those that were going to succeed and those that were going to end up managing the local garage shop.

Much of it has to do with the person's drive to get away/do something different and ultimately be themselves. My classmates (most of whom) came from ordinary families, none too rich or too poor, had predetermined ideas of what they wanted to be, some became famous, some have become extremely wealthy, some own businesses, some work for others.

For the most part, they are still the same people, with the same traits they had back in school back in the day.

Our 25th class reunion was interesting. People flying in from all over the globe. It is funny how the richest guy, travelled the furthest, never opened up to what he actually does (very private individual who I have been friends with since school) while others were boasting about how "successful" they had become...(some of it was nauseating). Others were still stuck in the parochial mind set where everything local has the most importance in their lives (and nothing wrong with that).

In all honesty, no one really shocked me about where they ended up, it always seemed to be a foregone conclusion for the most part.

mr_fegelien

PoisonIvyBelle wrote: »

I'm at a loss for words.

You seem to have misunderstood what I typed. I wanted him to outline the various ways life is hard.

I wasn't denying the fact that life is brutal/unfair.

amacca

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Time is an illusion. Everything has happened, will happen and is happening simultaneously.

You already will say that before.

Jinglejangle69

Everything that happens was always gonna happen that way.

That’s I think what the OP is in about.

Fr_Dougal

mr_fegelien wrote: »

How can life be hard?

Easy.

Don’t study, smoke weed, drink a lot, sit on your hole and feel sorry for yourself. You’ll soon find life will be hard.

partyguinness

OP,

You have opened 129 threads in a little over 4 months and posted an average of 4.3 posts per thread that you have opened (including posts in threads that you have not opened). It has taken me nearly 12 years to open 98 (surprised it is that much). And I am a sad bastard for working that out.

suicide_circus

Of course we have free will, we have no choice

RobbingBandit

Social ladder trumps all I'm sure there are teachers better suited to run America than The Donald but they're just teachers not legacies.

PoisonIvyBelle

mr_fegelien wrote: »

You seem to have misunderstood what I typed. I wanted him to outline the various ways life is hard.

I wasn't denying the fact that life is brutal/unfair.

No-one can give you a complete list of every way that life can be difficult. The fact that you even want one might be indicative of where your problem lies.

Also, you quoted me and I am not a "him".

topper75

Nobody really believes in fate and destiny. If you really did believe such, you wouldn't bother even pulling back the duvet in the morning.

There may be predictable reactions to circumstance. But they are reactions just the same.

mr_fegelien

mr_fegelien wrote: »

There's a lad who got 10a's in the junior cert in my school and I wonder, if he switched lives, parents, homes, and friends with one of the waster lads, would he have been as successful? I think not.

Everything is predetermined

I barely passed the leaving certificate. Whereas ten years later, I was in the top 1% of my MBA graduate year from a good university.

Everything is what you make of it. Your vision is limited to what you read, explore, and whether you apply that knowledge to yourself. Without vision you'll be stuck with the expectations of other people, and your national culture. Put into a box based on your early performance. With vision, you'll be free to do whatever your bloody want because you'll know that you can learn and develop yourself without even attending university... There's far more to the world and living within it, than your experiences so far.

topper75 wrote: »

Nobody really believes in fate and destiny. If you really did believe such, you wouldn't bother even pulling back the duvet in the morning.

There may be predictable reactions to circumstance. But they are reactions just the same.

Plenty of people believe in predestination, fate, the hand of God, etc. That there is some kind of plan to their lives, beyond their own decisions (or rather that their decisions fit the "plan). Why wouldn't you bother even pulling back the duvet in the morning? It's not as if the plan doesn't require your involvement.... That's the logic anyway.

I don't buy into it myself, but I've heard many people over the years talk about destiny. Usually with relation to meeting someone for love but also for their expectations about career/success.

Beasty

I reckon it will cost me at least 500 quid to get a will made up - no such thing as a free lunch!

sbsquarepants

topper75 wrote: »

Nobody really believes in fate and destiny. If you really did believe such, you wouldn't bother even pulling back the duvet in the morning.

.

Exactly.

If you truly believe that the lord above has a plan for you and it will play out the way he wants regardless, close your eyes and walk across a busy dual carriage way.

If you're scared to do that - you don't actually have faith in gods plan for you, you're just parroting phrases you heard somewhere!

My own take on it is if this actually was his plan for me, he's getting such a kick in the bollix when I see him! An almighty kick in fact, which is quite fitting:D

It’s kind of sad reading this thread and seeing success measured by career, money, exam results etc.

This kind of western society version of success is what leads so many to early graves.

Success can be many things. A person with mental health issues getting up in the morning. An alcoholic asking for help. Been a good parent.

People should really focus more on finding happiness.

mr_fegelien

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s kind of sad reading this thread and seeing success measured by career, money, exam results etc.

This kind of western society version of success is what leads so many to early graves.

Success can be many things. A person with mental health issues getting up in the morning. An alcoholic asking for help. Been a good parent.

People should really focus more on finding happiness.

I've heard this saying, "Having money doesn't guarantee happiness but not having money can make you 100% unhappy".

The fact is that academica success, and career success dictate a lot in your life if you don't want to be constrained in your opportunities.

Beasty

Beasty wrote: »

I reckon it will cost me at least 500 quid to get a will made up - no such thing as a free lunch!

Any funny plans for it? I like the user on boards who plans to be buried with his phone but his solicitor is told in the will to secretly keep the SIM card and start texting people a couple of weeks later.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Of course they have free will. Their circumstances don’t prevent them from doing something, it might influence it but it doesn’t dictate how a person acts. Free will does.

What you are trying to figure out is whether nature or nurture influences a persons destiny. Free will has nothing to do with it.

Fr_Dougal

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I've heard this saying, "Having money doesn't guarantee happiness but not having money can make you 100% unhappy".

The fact is that academica success, and career success dictate a lot in your life if you don't want to be constrained in your opportunities.

You’ve heard this, you’ve heard that, you make up facts that aren’t actually facts.

Is it a case that you are trying to come up with as many obstacles as you can to justify failure, or not having to apply yourself?

We can all come up with 100s of excuses not to get out of bed in the morning, 100s of excuses not to work, 100s of excuses not to try. But we have to, we’re adults with responsibilities.

Might be different for people who have no responsibilities, live at home, have everything handed to them. Washing and ironing done, phone credit paid for.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I've heard this saying, "Having money doesn't guarantee happiness but not having money can make you 100% unhappy".

The fact is that academica success, and career success dictate a lot in your life if you don't want to be constrained in your opportunities.

Who do you "hear" these things from?

Many people live in poor circumstances and are still happy in their lives. My own family were poor but, as a family, we had a very happy life and cut our cloth to our means.

If you measure success, happiness, and fulfilment by academic or career success alone then you have a very narrow view of life.

I sense you're looking for vindication, or excuses, for not getting on with living and taking advantage of the opportunities being offered to you.

ILoveYourVibes

why don't you do a philosophy degree mr feg?

What is free will? Is free will simply doing what isn't caused by someone else? Or does it just mean doing what you want?

Determinism vrs Compatabilsm.

Is there free will?
Its interesting because if you say NO. That leaves a lot of uncomfortable moral consequences. Can you say a murderer had no free will as to whether they killed someone?

Similarly can you say someone who killed in self defense to save their life had the same degree of free will that the above 1st murderer did?

The second murderer you could say had exactly the same amount of free will but rather dire consequences. The 1st murderer had every incentive not to kill avoiding jail social shame etc.

Say the 1st murderer was raised in a cave by an evil genius that taught them murder was righteous from when they were a baby and they are only released into the world at the age of 21. And they were told by the evil genius who raised them in the cave upon leaving not to listen to the outside world and to kill someone. Does this person have free will?

PoisonIvyBelle

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s kind of sad reading this thread and seeing success measured by career, money, exam results etc.

This kind of western society version of success is what leads so many to early graves.

Success can be many things. A person with mental health issues getting up in the morning. An alcoholic asking for help. Been a good parent.

People should really focus more on finding happiness.

I don't think anyone is saying you need to be minted with an MA to be happy. And of course all of the things you mention indicate success in life, I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.

Whatever happiness means to you is what you should work towards. And a lot of the time, having a decent education and enough money to support yourself are important factors in achieving whatever goals you have in your pursuit of that happiness.

Yes, it would be great if we lived in a less capitalist society and everyone had the freedom to do what they love and still live comfortably without making sacrifices along the way. But society isn't going to change overnight, if it ever does. So the best thing you can do right now is work it to your advantage and find a way to be happy in spite of the obstacles in your way. It's called being realistic.

Dr Strange

If I have no free will then how can I be morally culpable, I wonder?

ILoveYourVibes

PoisonIvyBelle wrote: »

I don't think anyone is saying you need to be minted with an MA to be happy. And of course all of the things you mention indicate success in life, I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.

.

Sure you do! You also need a wife with two kids and a hot mistress on the side ...and you need a big house .....and a merc..apartment in france to bring the mistress!

WrenBoy

suicide_circus wrote: »

Of course we have free will, we have no choice

Beat me to it :pac:

super_furry

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Time is an illusion. Everything has happened, will happen and is happening simultaneously.

Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks.

ILoveYourVibes

super_furry wrote: »

Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks.

IT SURE DOES! :mad:

vriesmays

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Everything is predetermined

Everything is the choice they made.

Capt'n Midnight

ressem

The way our decisions are made are influenced by our past external interactions.
Like the guideline about 1000 repetitions to become accomplished at a skill. Without some feedback, we just burn-in the bad habits.

There's plenty of people in jobs where competence and conscientiousness are expected that cannot be trusted to flush a toilet, nor clean up after they piss all over a toilet seat that they couldn't be bothered to take a second to lift.

It's done in isolation of a stall, so there is no feedback & the practice continues, until maybe in future they have to clean up, usually after others; or observe someone they care about having to fix their mess and feel embarrassment (like most learn in play school).

And apparently conscientiousness is more strongly linked to culture than gender.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

So we deliberately skip to a random page after 72 in protest (or just page 57 and meet pg 72 later). Rebel.

Machinations of a predetermined universe. Pfft. So if you have a universe sized storage device capable of duplicating everything to a quantum level you could fast forward / rewind it to know the future and past. Yeah good luck with that thought experiment. Though it would be interesting to see if it was a solar system copy, how quickly it would diverge and mispredict.