Hate Speech Public Consultation

ancapailldorcha · 19-12-2019 12:52PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

But where is the difference? One is saying kill all gays the other is saying kill all traveller children

Because the idea that someone is going actually appropriate traveller children for use as shark bait is patently absurd.

LostinBlanch · 19-12-2019 12:58PM

Wibbs wrote: »

So facts are stupid and racist now eh? Again please feel free to disprove what I said. Hell, even come back with a question on it. I mean it seems to be lodged in your head like a tick, so you've read it enough times, surely you'd have something more than "racist" and "guff". Apparently not. Then again you've proved decidedly lacking in disproving or reasonably questioning the vast majority of points brought up in this thread, so no need to hold my breath. Though at this point dealing with you is like kicking your opponent when they're down and out for the count and their seconds have retired to the pub. So until you come up with something more cogent and less dogwhistling you're best ignored.

Wibbs,

I think we need to step back a bit from this instant back and forth and look at the bigger picture here. Imagine a hypothetical situation, let’s say that a certain group of posters are vehemently on one side of the argument and will brook absolutely no opposition. We could call them Al (not naming any single poster in this thread, I’m talking hypothetically here). But these posters live in a wonderful reality where they are 100% right about everything, and everyone else is 100% wrong but if they repented all would be well. We could call that reality AlsworldTM.

Now in AlsworldTM, just like the Wizard of Oz, it’s all about attempting to control, maybe not people in the Emerald City, but let’s say the Emerald Isle. If you look behind the curtain, instead of Oz the great, you see the reality that in this case there is little or no argument that will persuade most people. So instead there’s just basic elements of sophistry to make up for this. If your arguments are more persuasive to people it’s because you’re cheating, because their argument is the right one and you are obviously a blasphemer, and people should see the right way to behave because that’s the natural order of things in AlsworldTM.

So here comes the incorrect use of the strawman fallacy, because you are cheating remember. So of course it’s perfectly reasonable to take some of your quotes out of context or incorrectly phrase or summarise your arguments and claim that you said things you didn’t in order to “defeat” your arguments and then accuse you of using the strawman fallacy.

Oh and you’re a nasty waacist* :rolleyes:

*Waits for that to be used out of context

Annasopra · 19-12-2019 01:02PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Because the idea that someone is going actually appropriate traveller children for use as shark bait is patently absurd.

But then why assume that saying "kill all gays" isnt patently absurd?

You're still calling for all traveller children to be killd as well. I dont see the difference here.

ancapailldorcha · 19-12-2019 01:13PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

But then why assume that saying "kill all gays" isnt patently absurd?

You're still calling for all traveller children to be killd as well. I dont see the difference here.

I have already answered this, as has Wibbs. One is ridiculous, one is not.

RandomName2 · 19-12-2019 01:20PM

alastair wrote: »

The legislation doesn’t impede free speech beyond the following:

The right to freedom of expression [..] as long as this does not advocate hatred that incites [..] hostility [..] against an individual or group of individuals.

I've highlighted the salient bit. The minimum criteria for censorship is anything that incites hostility against anyone. I wonder, does this include inciting hostility against yourself?

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I have already answered this, as has Wibbs. One is ridiculous, one is not.

It could be argued that, regardless of the intent of the comment, that it may be read by someone who may take it seriously. Potential hate legislation may take the effect into account as much as the intent. Read Catcher in the Rye, try to kill John Lennon.

Annasopra · 19-12-2019 01:30PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I have already answered this, as has Wibbs. One is ridiculous, one is not.

You didnt answer no.

ancapailldorcha · 19-12-2019 01:31PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

It could be argued that, regardless of the intent of the comment, that it may be read by someone who may take it seriously. Potential hate legislation may take the effect into account as much as the intent. Read Catcher in the Rye, try to kill Ronald Raegan.

Absolutely but recognition of this fact means that recognising a line has to be drawn somewhere. We have laws for slander for instance. It probably would not be hate speech for me to say that a competing business person is ethically dubious but that does not necessarily mean that it should be permitted.

I recently described the Momentum movement in the Labour party as a cancer. Would that be hate speech? Someone might try to excise it.

Ultimately, it's a highly difficult and important question necessitating a nuanced and complex response. Hardly likely in this age of Twitter and Snapchat.

19-12-2019 01:47PM

Antifa would be ****ed if Hate Speech becomes punishable. I don't think "the left" really understand what they are trying to bring in.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-12-2019 03:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Antifa would be ****ed if Hate Speech becomes punishable. I don't think "the left" really understand what they are trying to bring in.

It hasn't crossed their mind.

The left naively assumes the laws would protect groups they don't want to see criticized, such as immigrants, people of colour, Muslims, Travellers, women, and LGBT individuals, but would not protect groups the left routinely attacks and derides, such as Christians, Jews, white people, and men.

Indeed, left-wingers on US college campuses, where this nonsense always begins, actively encourage hatred against conservatives, Jews, and men — while claiming out of the other side of their mouths that hatred is bad and must be eliminated.

Of course, the law will not necessarily be applied as they imagine. French left-wingers got a shock recently when Macron instructed magistrates to investigate critics of Israel for possible violations of the law against anti-Semitic hate speech. Trump issued an executive order last week targeting anti-Semitism on college campuses, which the left is now concerned will lead to a suppression of their anti-Israel activism.

Things rarely work out as we anticipate.

suicide_circus · 19-12-2019 04:39PM

Kameron Rapid Seacoast wrote: »

Things rarely work out as we anticipate.

every action has an equal and opposite reaction

Clarence Boddiker · 19-12-2019 07:02PM

One of the craziest things about the recent Free Speech Rally in Dublin was the presence on the opposite (anti free speech) side of the republican dissident group Saoradh..the same group responsible for the murder of the young journalist Lyra McKee.

Nobody seemed to have a problem with this at all and we had the likes of Trocaire, the Nurses Union, 'Peace' groups standing shoulder to shoulder with a known terrorist organisation who had just recently murdered a journalist.
Whats even worse is that as far as I can see not one mainstream media outlet has picked up on this.

peddlelies · 19-12-2019 10:47PM

This is exactly the type of thing I'm happy to avoid. It's so fecking nutty it doesn't matter what you say anymore.

The "anti-trans" researcher fired said she didn't think it was possible to change biological sex, BLASPHEMY!

https://twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1207640189117571072

Boggles · 20-12-2019 09:32AM

She sounds like an attention seeking edglelord TBH.

She worked for a company that campaigns against inequality.

Sounds like a more planned sophisticated version of the gay cake trap.

I have absolutely no time for that shíthousing!

TwoMonthsOff · 20-12-2019 10:00AM

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

One of the craziest things about the recent Free Speech Rally in Dublin was the presence on the opposite (anti free speech) side of the republican dissident group Saoradh..the same group responsible for the murder of the young journalist Lyra McKee.

Nobody seemed to have a problem with this at all and we had the likes of Trocaire, the Nurses Union, 'Peace' groups standing shoulder to shoulder with a known terrorist organisation who had just recently murdered a journalist.
Whats even worse is that as far as I can see not one mainstream media outlet has picked up on this.

The organisers of the "rally for peace" have been absolutely destroyed on social media, saoradh terrorists and communists wanting to silence Irish people and I guess they dont care about immigrants that came here from former communist countries, its only the brown folk that matter.

Clarence Boddiker · 20-12-2019 10:22PM

Man in the states gets 16 years for burning a lgbt flag.
Be afraid... Be very afraid.

https://mobile.twitter.com/thehill/status/1207767069279891457

MadYaker · 20-12-2019 10:57PM

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Man in the states gets 16 years for burning a lgbt flag.
Be afraid... Be very afraid.

https://mobile.twitter.com/thehill/status/1207767069279891457

The yanks have gone totally nuts. They jail people for burning the start and stripes as well.

Wibbs · 20-12-2019 11:04PM

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Man in the states gets 16 years for burning a lgbt flag.
Be afraid... Be very afraid.

https://mobile.twitter.com/thehill/status/1207767069279891457

Now from what I can glean from the story is that this eejit stole this flag from a church and burnt it. He sees being Gay as a sin and quoted scripture on the matter. Did he deserve gaol time? I would say yes, for theft, trespass, endangerment and incitement, though on the last point it's pretty bloody vague. Especially when a sixteen year gaol term is involved.

One reply asked a good question I thought: Legitimate question: Burning the US flag is protected speech. Why was this not?

Indeed, the above could be seen as quasi treasonous and incitement to hate your entire country and its people. Then again a) this is 'Murica where the law can be an ass and a well padded one and b) the current climate is quite divided along factional lines. He may well have walked scot free in another US jurisdiction. Being a brown Hispanic man wouldn't have served him too well either.

Clarence Boddiker · 20-12-2019 11:25PM

Yeah the guy was a bad egg to put it mildly but 16 years is nuts. I'd imagine it was wholly down to the judge he was in front of and that in itself is very worrying.

Marcos · 20-12-2019 11:26PM

TwoMonthsOff wrote: »

The organisers of the "rally for peace" have been absolutely destroyed on social media, saoradh terrorists and communists wanting to silence Irish people and I guess they dont care about immigrants that came here from former communist countries, its only the brown folk that matter.

I took a look at Trocaires twitter feed. They posted a tweet supporting the rally. Looking at all the replies, I think it’s fair to say they misjudged and are out of step with people who would normally donate to them. If it carries through, I can see their donations going down a lot next year.

https://mobile.twitter.com/trocaire/status/1205816079618056193

Annasopra · 21-12-2019 08:37AM

Marcos wrote: »

I took a look at Trocaires twitter feed. They posted a tweet supporting the rally. Looking at all the replies, I think it’s fair to say they misjudged and are out of step with people who would normally donate to them. If it carries through, I can see their donations going down a lot next year.

https://mobile.twitter.com/trocaire/status/1205816079618056193

I doubt it tbh. The vast majority of Irish people dont listen to far right racism or twitter bot farms.

Wibbs · 21-12-2019 09:45AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I doubt it tbh. The vast majority of Irish people dont listen to far right racism or twitter bot farms.

I'm always amused by those - and not just you - who are so confident in their position that they claim to speak for the "vast majority of Irish people" in support of it.

pjohnson · 21-12-2019 09:48AM

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm always amused by those - and not just you - who are so confident in their position that they claim to speak for the "vast majority of Irish people" in support of it.

Its backed up by our election results.

GO'D and her Irexit party buddies, Renua, Casey etc. all fail and generally regarded as laughing stocks not viable candidates.

ThunbergsAreGo · 21-12-2019 09:54AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I doubt it tbh. The vast majority of Irish people dont listen to far right racism or twitter bot farms.

Morons on both sides of it. They should have left it alone

CrankyHaus · 21-12-2019 10:16AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I doubt it tbh. The vast majority of Irish people dont listen to far right racism or twitter bot farms.

Does Trocaire standing alongside violent extremists who shoot journalists and masked thugs who use violence in an attempt to silence anyone who disagrees with them not bother you?

alastair · 21-12-2019 10:42AM

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm always amused by those - and not just you - who are so confident in their position that they claim to speak for the "vast majority of Irish people" in support of it.

If you ignore electoral results I guess you might have a point.

alastair · 21-12-2019 10:45AM

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Does Trocaire standing alongside violent extremists who shoot journalists and masked thugs who use violence in an attempt to silence anyone who disagrees with them not bother you?

Doesn’t bother me. We had decades of SF, with an active IRA campaign of violence, showing up for every social justice protest in the country. Same old. And there were masked thugs on both sides of that protest. Only the one side filled with racists and homophobes all the same.

Wibbs · 21-12-2019 11:18AM

pjohnson wrote: »

Its backed up by our election results.

GO'D and her Irexit party buddies, Renua, Casey etc. all fail and generally regarded as laughing stocks not viable candidates.

Oh sure P, because they're a bunch of actual policy free or daft thundering gobsh1tes. The dafter end of the "left" like PbP are also generally regarded as laughing stocks and a bunch of thundering gobsh1tes too, and as a people we'd be much more on the left side of centrist politically.

We tend to be very traditionalist when it comes to voting for parties. It's generally one bunch or the other. Rinse and repeat. Alternatives like the Greens who appear not to be nutcases and pretty centrist left and acceptable tend to only get the Dublin leafy suburb I recycle my own organic muesli you know vote and few enough of them.

On referendums we've certainly seen a swing away from and rejection of old catholic Oirland on a few subjects. In general though the Irish voter is not radical, certainly not to the degree of other countries and cultures. We prefer the middle of the road, ah sure it'll be grand politic. And this is a good thing IMHO. However it's also not good to be complacent. Yes the same sex marriage and 8th amendment referendums passed, but in each case a little over a third of voters opposed them. That's enough people that could well be swayed by not so obvious thundering gobsh1tes and nutters like Casey and Gemma. Even Casey who gained notoriety and a sh1t tonne of pushback over his only talking point came second in that presidential race(nearly a quarter of votes IIRC), when before his comments he was mostly definitely a "who dat?" lucky to get a couple of percent of votes.

Bobblehats · 21-12-2019 01:39PM

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Does Trocaire standing alongside violent extremists who shoot journalists and masked thugs who use violence in an attempt to silence anyone who disagrees with them not bother you?

Their ‘rally4peace’ reminded me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rg3JLUDFKPE

Will they attempt to silence this brand of hate speech too I wonder?! Interesting insight @10:32. Hell/handbasket ..

TwoMonthsOff · 21-12-2019 01:51PM

Will we still be able to call concerned Irish people racists and nazis when this new law comes in?

Lonesomerhodes · 21-12-2019 04:45PM

Funny isn't it you have the left call anyone opposed to this Nazi and scum and other disgusting terms yet a Irish citizen is accused of being derogatory for opposing free speech laws. It's insane.

It's all part the ruling class controlling us even more.

The lies from the left were insane People before profit lying through their teeth on this issue on the rally!.

This is directly from the article on people before profits site on the rally for free speech. All words taken literally verbatim.

Let’s have a look at the utter lies people before profit can squeeze into one small article.

‘Over the past few months, a number of fringe far right groupings have become more energised after they managed to stage protests against the presence of asylum seekers in their areas’

Lie. No far right groups even exist in Ireland and the people protesting were local residents ie the protests in Rooskey. In fact far left parties bussed in people to scream abuse at the locals and call them racist!. Several of the locals were attacked by bussed in hard lefties!.

This is why they have planned a Freedom for Hate Speech rally at the Dail at same time as the Peace on Earth event.

Lie, the rally for free speech was planned LOOOOONG in advance of their counter protest, full of paid NGO’s all there to protest against free speech. The free speech rally was organised WEEKS in advance of the counter protest!.

Under the guise of wanting ‘free speech’ these far right bigots want to spread hatred against migrants. While they verbally abuse people of colour, Muslims or anyone without Irish accent, this emboldens their supporters to physically attack and abuse the targets of this hatred. This is totally unacceptable.

Total lie. What evidence of this is there?. There is no far right movement in Ireland. Where is the verbal abuse?. As you well know if they even had a second of it, it would be all over their social media in a second.
In fact it was the lefties and Antifa screaming abuse Nazi scum, racist, attacking people throwing bottles coins, breaking Garda lines etc and acting in a unbelievably aggressive and hostile manner. The hypocrisy of these people is staggering,
ALL of the aggression came from the left. I seen it with my own eyes.

Anyone with the slightest knowledge of history, knows that when the far right build a base through hatred and fear, the only ‘free speech’ they allow is one that deflects attention from their rich backers and turns social anger against other working people.

This one is a lie with bells on it. Anyone there for the rally for free speech was there out of their own pocket. Every single one. No one who sees through the left nonsense gets a cent from NGO’s there is not ONE single conservative or right leaning NGO there is over 80 left ones!. All in attendance at the ‘Rally for peace on Earth’ and all paid.

Who with conservative views gets so much as one sent from bankers?. Sheer tripe!.

These people are they going for some award in hypocrisy or something, it is truly astonishing how hypocritical they can be. Shows the desperation of the left to stop any opposition to their bull eh!.

People before profit like a brainwashing machine in Marxism.

Staggering the lies they come out with.
These are a few from just one tiny article!.

Hate Speech Public Consultation

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