Champions Cup Potential Changes 2022

Podge_irl · 17-12-2019 8:42am #1

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/dec/16/champions-cup-revamp-18-teams-two-legged-semi-finals

From the very bottom of my heart....please **** off with this ****.

Eod100 · 17-12-2019 8:47am

Here we go again.. https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/dec/16/champions-cup-revamp-18-teams-two-legged-semi-finals?__twitter_impression=true

Neil3030 · 17-12-2019 8:48am

How long before the final is held in Saudi Arabia, I wonder.

Felix Jones is God. · 17-12-2019 9:14am

Eod100 wrote: »

Here we go again.. https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/dec/16/champions-cup-revamp-18-teams-two-legged-semi-finals?__twitter_impression=true

A 2 legged semi final is definitely an improvement on the current situation

sydthebeat · 17-12-2019 9:20am

Felix Jones is God. wrote: »

A 2 legged semi final is definitely an improvement on the current situation

Really??

Aggregate scores?

testtech05 · 17-12-2019 9:31am

Podge_irl wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/dec/16/champions-cup-revamp-18-teams-two-legged-semi-finals

From the very bottom of my heart....please **** off with this ****.

Sounds like a mess.

Eod100 · 17-12-2019 9:33am

Felix Jones is God. wrote: »

A 2 legged semi final is definitely an improvement on the current situation

If anything it would mean less chance of an upset. Weaker team on paper could beat stronger team in one off . Granted doesn't happen too often but 2 legs would think it would be even rarer

irishbucsfan · 17-12-2019 9:37am

It's a very silly idea particularly in a competition that spans such a large geographical distance. I'd doubt it'll get far

Felix Jones is God. · 17-12-2019 9:43am

Eod100 wrote: »

If anything it would mean less chance of an upset. Weaker team on paper could beat stronger team in one off . Granted doesn't happen too often but 2 legs would think it would be even rarer

Quite the opposite would be true

Exclamation Marc · 17-12-2019 9:44am

Felix Jones is God. wrote: »

A 2 legged semi final is definitely an improvement on the current situation

Couldn't disagree more. Two leg games can be absolutely awful to watch where away teams are simply looking to concede as little as possible rather than score or where a team savages another in the first leg and the second leg becomes a sleepwalk.

It also severely limits the chances of any upsets and takes away the frenetic nature of knock out rugby.

aloooof · 17-12-2019 9:48am

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Couldn't disagree more. Two leg games can be absolutely awful to watch where away teams are simply looking to concede as little as possible rather than score or where a team savages another in the first leg and the second leg becomes a sleepwalk.

It also severely limits the chances of any upsets and takes away the frenetic nature of knock out rugby.

This would be my take as well, tbh. It would probably also hand an advantage to the likes of Racing, where an indoor stadium is possibly more likely to result in higher scoring games*.

*I've zero actual evidence to back this up.

Shefwedfan · 17-12-2019 9:53am

A 2 leg semi would be a mess. The first leg the away team would spend the 80 mins trying to kill the game and the opposition...then in second match try to play a bit at home

Another stupid idea from the English to ruin a good competition

Former Former · 17-12-2019 9:55am

What an awful, awful idea.

awec · 17-12-2019 9:58am

Doesn't sound too bad to be honest. Dropping to 18 teams is not that big of a deal.

awec · 17-12-2019 10:01am

I do think that there needs to be some tweaks to the knockout stages of the competition. The semi final situation right now is influenced too much by the sheer luck of the draw at pool stage time.

I would personally change it so that there is a draw after the pool stages, rather than the current automatic pairings. Top 4 teams can get any of the bottom 4 teams. Then at the semi final stage it should be another open draw.

Cookiemunster · 17-12-2019 10:11am

awec wrote: »

Doesn't sound too bad to be honest. Dropping to 18 teams is not that big of a deal.

Three team pools? Only four group games? The two groups with the weakest teams guaranteed to get two of the three into the quarter finals before the comp even kicks off? Yeah, that's a hug improvement :rolleyes:

prawnsambo · 17-12-2019 10:12am

awec wrote: »

Doesn't sound too bad to be honest. Dropping to 18 teams is not that big of a deal.

The motivation is obvious though. Cut down pool games to just four and leave room in the calendar for an expanded Premiership; which has been mooted for some time now and looks like a done deal.

awec · 17-12-2019 10:15am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Three team pools? Only four group games? The two groups with the weakest teams guaranteed to get two of the three into the quarter finals before the comp even kicks off? Yeah, that's a hug improvement :rolleyes:

Only 4 group games is not a bad thing. It would be a good thing for the Pro14 IMO, as our better players can then play in the league more often. These sort of changes will force the pro14 to up it's game.

Cookiemunster · 17-12-2019 10:21am

awec wrote: »

Only 4 group games is not a bad thing. It would be a good thing for the Pro14 IMO, as our better players can then play in the league more often. These sort of changes will force the pro14 to up it's game.

It completely changes the competition in a way that dropping to 20 didn't. And they're talking about adding two legged knock out games. You're fooling yourself if you think it will change anything in the Pro14.

Podge_irl · 17-12-2019 10:22am

awec wrote: »

Only 4 group games is not a bad thing. It would be a good thing for the Pro14 IMO, as our better players can then play in the league more often. These sort of changes will force the pro14 to up it's game.

How?

Loss of gate receipts from one game? Throw in one extra home Pro14 game - albeit with a lower attendance probably - and job done. Not entirely sure how it forced them to confront the structural problems of the Pro14.

The English and French as a collective value their own leagues higher than Europe. None of the Pro14 nations do. I think its a bit short-sighted of the other leagues but that's their choice. But nothing they suggest will be to our benefit.

awec · 17-12-2019 10:22am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It completely changes the competition in a way that dropping to 20 didn't. And they're talking about adding two legged knock out games. You're fooling yourself if you thing it will change anything in the Pro14.

They're talking about adding a two legged semi final, which will only affect teams that actually get to the semi final.

For most teams, they'll play less games in Europe. Which means players are available to play more games in the league.

awec · 17-12-2019 10:23am

Podge_irl wrote: »

How?

Loss of gate receipts from one game? Throw in one extra home Pro14 game - albeit with a lower attendance probably - and job done. Not entirely sure how it forced them to confront the structural problems of the Pro14.

The English and French as a collective value their own leagues higher than Europe. None of the Pro14 nations do. I think its a bit short-sighted of the other leagues but that's their choice. But nothing they suggest will be to our benefit.

This attitude will have to change.

Seriously, long term I really do believe the Pro14 is going to have to be taken more seriously, and teams are going to have to stop seeing it as the competition to fill in the weeks between europe. I do not think today's approach is sustainable.

Cookiemunster · 17-12-2019 10:26am

awec wrote: »

They're talking about adding a two legged semi final, which will only affect teams that actually get to the semi final.

For most teams, they'll play less games in Europe. Which means players are available to play more games in the league.

As I said, if you think it will make any change to the Pro14, you're fooling yourself. Do you honestly believe that internationals possibly being available for 10 or 11 games out of 21 rather than 8 or 9 will change the league?

thomond2006 · 17-12-2019 10:26am

I'm intrigued by the Champions League SF idea, though that works via the away goals rule in football. I'm not sure if it fits rugby.

The six pools of three idea is daft. Burn it with fire.

17-12-2019 10:27am

Another inescapable issue in the Pro14 is there are 4 international teams worth of players to be taken from it vs 1 in England and 1 in France. The impact of taking all the English players out of the Premiership is obviously far less than taking all the Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian internationals out of the Pro14.

awec · 17-12-2019 10:27am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

As I said, if you think it will make any change to the Pro14, you're fooling yourself. Do you honestly believe that internationals possible being available for 10 or 11 games out of 21 rather than 8 or 9 will change the league?

It's a start.

The league must change. This move helps, rather than hinders that. Is it going to solve every issue? No.

Cookiemunster · 17-12-2019 10:30am

awec wrote: »

It's a start.

The league must change. This move helps, rather than hinders that. Is it going to solve every issue? No.

The league exists to feed players into the national teams of the Celtic unions. That is not going to change any time soon. It has the same modus operandi as Super Rugby and cannot be compared to the Premiership or Top 14, no matter how much you want it to be.

Podge_irl · 17-12-2019 10:30am

awec wrote: »

This attitude will have to change.

Seriously, long term I really do believe the Pro14 is going to have to be taken more seriously, and teams are going to have to stop seeing it as the competition to fill in the weeks between europe. I do not think today's approach is sustainable.

I do not agree with this at all. The attitude to the Pro14 needs to change, I agree. But it is the French and English attitude towards Europe which should change to benefit everyone. There is nothing wrong with valuing European competition higher - it makes perfect sense and in a properly functioning set up Europe-wide would be the logical outcome. And constantly tinkering with it won't help anything.

Groups of 3 would be utterly crap on so many levels - not least scheduling.

awec · 17-12-2019 10:37am

Podge_irl wrote: »

I do not agree with this at all. The attitude to the Pro14 needs to change, I agree. But it is the French and English attitude towards Europe which should change to benefit everyone. There is nothing wrong with valuing European competition higher - it makes perfect sense and in a properly functioning set up Europe-wide would be the logical outcome. And constantly tinkering with it won't help anything.

Groups of 3 would be utterly crap on so many levels - not least scheduling.

Why?

Seriously, why should French and English clubs give a damn that Pro14 teams can't rely on their league? It's not their problem.

Podge_irl · 17-12-2019 10:41am

awec wrote: »

Why?

Why should French and English clubs give a damn that Pro14 teams can't rely on their league?

I have not suggested they should. They should give a damn about having a proper competition at a higher level than their domestic league. European rugby should be the highest level of competition and it is being damaged by the actions of French and English clubs. And now they are at it again.

I would like to see a more serious Pro14. But I can't understand how you could think further and further sidelining the European cup is a worthwhile way or achieving that.

awec · 17-12-2019 10:41am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The league exists to feed players into the national teams of the Celtic unions. That is not going to change any time soon. It has the same modus operandi as Super Rugby and cannot be compared to the Premiership or Top 14, no matter how much you want it to be.

Well then our goose is cooked. Stubbornness will end us.

Right now this league is sustained through test and european rugby. It is clear that our eggs are in these baskets. It is also clear that our partners in european rugby are seeing it as less important than we are.

If we continue to put all our eggs in this basket, and refuse to make changes to our own league, there will only be one eventual outcome.

awec · 17-12-2019 10:44am

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have not suggested they should. They should give a damn about having a proper competition at a higher level than their domestic league. European rugby should be the highest level of competition and it is being damaged by the actions of French and English clubs. And now they are at it again.

I would like to see a more serious Pro14. But I can't understand how you could think further and further sidelining the European cup is a worthwhile way or achieving that.

Why?

I am sure they are not against a good European competition, they just don't want it to affect their own domestic league so much. This is hardly surprising.

Even in soccer, the champions league is the pinnacle club competition, but it would never be allowed to do anything that the top european leagues didn't like.

Their priorities are different to ours, and I believe our priorities need adjusting. We don't need to go from one extreme to the other, but the current balance of focus between league and europe is not going to work.

Eod100 · 17-12-2019 10:49am

Felix Jones is God. wrote: »

Quite the opposite would be true

Don't have stats cos not sure if many 2 legged semi final fixtures in rugby but would think it would definitely advantage stronger teams. They can afford to absorb opposition first leg and even if they lose, just need to beat them more 2nd leg. Surely also mentally, easier to gear team up for one off upset than face team over 2 legs. 1 point win does in current format.

Cookiemunster · 17-12-2019 10:51am

awec wrote: »

Well then our goose is cooked. Stubbornness will end us.

Right now this league is sustained through test and european rugby. It is clear that our eggs are in these baskets. It is also clear that our partners in european rugby are seeing it as less important than we are.

If we continue to put all our eggs in this basket, and refuse to make changes to our own league, there will only be one eventual outcome.

Again. The main purpose of the league is to feed players into the international sides. The vast majority of the money invested in the Pro14 teams comes from international rugby. That's is not going to change any time soon.

sydthebeat · 17-12-2019 10:55am

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm intrigued by the Champions League SF idea, though that works via the away goals rule in football. I'm not sure if it fits rugby.

It might work if you apply bonus points to it first, Aggregate scores second.

Podge_irl · 17-12-2019 10:57am

awec wrote: »

Why?

I am sure they are not against a good European competition, they just don't want it to affect their own domestic league so much. This is hardly surprising.

Even in soccer, the champions league is the pinnacle club competition, but it would never be allowed to do anything that the top european leagues didn't like.

Their priorities are different to ours, and I believe our priorities need adjusting. We don't need to go from one extreme to the other, but the current balance of focus between league and europe is not going to work.

This I am beginning to doubt.

I do not see how this proposal benefits the European competition one bit. It seems a lot more like they are trying to restrict the competition so that they need to do the minimum possible while still retaining some element of income from it.

errlloyd · 17-12-2019 12:04pm

I wish we knew more about the revenue structure - most importantly the value of the European Broadcasting and Sponsorship deals and the way this money is distributed to participants.

We know that European games get higher attendances across pretty much every club than domestic games. I suspect they get higher TV audiences too. Clubs should be able to earn more revenue per game playing in Europe than they can domestically. Right now it sounds like there isn't the financial incentive for clubs to strongly commit to Europe.

Quin_Dub · 17-12-2019 12:07pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm intrigued by the Champions League SF idea, though that works via the away goals rule in football. I'm not sure if it fits rugby.

The six pools of three idea is daft. Burn it with fire.

I don't understand this quote in relation to the 3 groups of 6 suggestion

One of the attractions of an 18-team competition would be to prevent teams from the same country from meeting each other in the pool stages, as has been the case again this year.

How exactly would they do that then?

18 teams , 6 from each league into 3 groups - How can you structure that to keep the leagues apart??

You'd have to have 2 from each at a minimum surely?

awec · 17-12-2019 12:11pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I don't understand this quote in relation to the 3 groups of 6 suggestion

How exactly would they do that then?

18 teams , 6 from each league into 3 groups - How can you structure that to keep the leagues apart??

You'd have to have 2 from each at a minimum surely?

It's 6 groups of 3, not 3 groups of 6.

With each group having 1 team from each league presumably.

troyzer · 17-12-2019 12:15pm

awec wrote: »

It's 6 groups of 3, not 3 groups of 6.

With each group having 1 team from each league presumably.

So two less group games.

How do they square that with a desire for more TV money?

errlloyd · 17-12-2019 12:19pm

You know what would be quite cool would be how the rounds would end up being structured. Each group would only have 6 games instead of the current 12 - but it would still require 6 weekends, it's just each team would only play 4 of those 6 weekends. The most logical way to structure that is to give all teams from the same domestic league the same week off.

So for example you'd have the English v French weekends, English v Celtian weekends, Celtalian v French weekends.

Now those weekends might end up being being pretty good craic. A real club 6 nations feel to them? Could even be deadly if all the away games were the same.

awec · 17-12-2019 12:23pm

errlloyd wrote: »

You know what would be quite cool would be how the rounds would end up being structured. Each group would only have 6 games instead of the current 12 - but it would still require 6 weekends, it's just each team would only play 4 of those 6 weekends. The most logical way to structure that is to give all teams from the same domestic league the same week off.

So for example you'd have the English v French weekends, English v Celtian weekends, Celtalian v French weekends.

Now those weekends might end up being being pretty good craic. A real club 6 nations feel to them? Could even be deadly if all the away games were the same.

That would be how it would work I think, because it's the only way that PRL would get 2 weekends back for league games.

Cookiemunster · 17-12-2019 12:29pm

errlloyd wrote: »

You know what would be quite cool would be how the rounds would end up being structured. Each group would only have 6 games instead of the current 12 - but it would still require 6 weekends, it's just each team would only play 4 of those 6 weekends. The most logical way to structure that is to give all teams from the same domestic league the same week off.

So for example you'd have the English v French weekends, English v Celtian weekends, Celtalian v French weekends.

Now those weekends might end up being being pretty good craic. A real club 6 nations feel to them? Could even be deadly if all the away games were the same.

Would BT sport want Premiership matches on the same weekend as European games if they still own the rights to both? Would BeIn Sport in France want TOP14 games clashing with Europe? From a TV point of view I can't see it happening.

And that also shows the biggest issue with three team pools. The last weekend one team is finished giving the other two the opportunity to get the best result for themselves. It's totally unfair from a sporting point of view.

errlloyd · 17-12-2019 12:38pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And that also shows the biggest issue with three team pools. The last weekend one team is finished giving the other two the opportunity to get the best result for themselves. It's totally unfair from a sporting point of view.

I agree with your point.

But even under the status quo there are lots of opportunities for game theory in the last weekend. For example in 2017-2018 Leinster went to last round already guaranteed a top seeding playing against Montpellier away. We easily could have sent the seconds, got whooped and not just still top the seeding, but also possibly eliminate Saracens - but we went over and beat them for the craic.

OldRio · 17-12-2019 12:42pm

Good grief. Here we go again.

3 teams. Good God no.

awec · 17-12-2019 12:43pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Would BT sport want Premiership matches on the same weekend as European games if they still own the rights to both? Would BeIn Sport in France want TOP14 games clashing with Europe? From a TV point of view I can't see it happening.

And that also shows the biggest issue with three team pools. The last weekend one team is finished giving the other two the opportunity to get the best result for themselves. It's totally unfair from a sporting point of view.

This kind of happens today anyway, when the teams in 4th in the last 2 or 3 rounds know they are lame ducks and behave accordingly.

molloyjh · 17-12-2019 12:45pm

awec wrote: »

This attitude will have to change.

Seriously, long term I really do believe the Pro14 is going to have to be taken more seriously, and teams are going to have to stop seeing it as the competition to fill in the weeks between europe. I do not think today's approach is sustainable.

I'm sorry now, but I've got to call this out for what it is. A stupid post. The P14 is not seen by anyone as a competition to fill in the weeks. It is a competition that has a different end goal for the Unions than the English and French leagues goals for private clubs. That you refuse to acknowledge the need for the league to be fundamentally different to serve the game as a whole in what are much smaller countries is your failing. Not the leagues or the Unions.

And the league has proven to be quite successful in terms of what it is there for. Both Ireland and Wales have seen huge upturns in their international fortunes since its inception as their players are playing senior club rugby more regularly and they have scope to develop depth that they didnt have before. Its incredibly short sighted to not see the league for what it is and all the benefits it has brought rugby at large in Ireland particularly.

I'm sorry this is harsh, but I'm a little sick of people crapping on the league and making daft hyperbolic statements like the above. It serves its purpose well and we have to accept that it needs to be this in order for our national team to continue to see the success it has over the last 10-12 years. That funds the game in this country, and without it we can forget about the provinces ever being competitive in any competition.

awec · 17-12-2019 12:47pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm sorry now, but I've got to call this out for what it is. A stupid post. The P14 is not seen by anyone as a competition to fill in the weeks. It is a competition that has a different end goal for the Unions than the English and French leagues goals for private clubs. That you refuse to acknowledge the need for the league to be fundamentally different to serve the game as a whole in what are much smaller countries is your failing. Not the leagues or the Unions.

And the league has proven to be quite successful in terms of what it is there for. Both Ireland and Wales have seen huge upturns in their international fortunes since its inception as their players are playing senior club rugby more regularly and they have scope to develop depth that they didnt have before. Its incredibly short sighted to not see the league for what it is and all the benefits it has brought rugby at large in Ireland particularly.

I'm sorry this is harsh, but I'm a little sick of people crapping on the league and making daft hyperbolic statements like the above. It serves its purpose well and we have to accept that it needs to be this in order for our national team to continue to see the success it has over the last 10-12 years. That funds the game in thos country, and without it we can forget about the provinces ever being competitive in any competition.

This is exactly what it is.

Are you suggesting that Wales and Ireland's success is down to the Pro14? What data do you have to suggest this is true?

The Pro14 is a crap league. This is a fact, unfortunately. This is borne out by the level of interest given to it.

In a number of years time we're going to end up with a massive gulf between England and France and the rest, and the same suspects will still be saying you cannot possibly make any changes whatsoever to the Pro14 and how it is approached because anything other than the current model is very, very bad.

It is unsustainable, and desperately scouring the globe for any and all teams to add to it to try squeeze a bit more from TV at it is not going to fix it.

molloyjh · 17-12-2019 12:52pm

As for these proposed changes, it just further reduces the competitiveness of the pools, all but ensuring that the top 2 teams from each league make the QFs. And as others have said, the 2 leg SF idea further reduces the chances for an upset. It seems to be all about securing the places for the big sides which takes away further from the competition.

molloyjh · 17-12-2019 1:00pm

awec wrote: »

This is exactly what it is.

Are you suggesting that Wales and Ireland's success is down to the Pro14? What data do you have to suggest this is true?

The Pro14 is a crap league. This is a fact, unfortunately. This is borne out by the level of interest given to it.

In a number of years time we're going to end up with a massive gulf between England and France and the rest, and the same suspects will still be saying you cannot possibly make any changes whatsoever to the Pro14 and how it is approached because anything other than the current model is very, very bad.

It is unsustainable, and desperately scouring the globe for any and all teams to add to it to try squeeze a bit more from TV at it is not going to fix it.

What data do I have? I have the results from the 6Ns, the June internationals and the Autumn internationals. I have comparative stats against the same opposition in the periods before and the periods after the league was set-up and became established. Take a look, it's actually quite a stark difference in fortunes for Wales and Ireland around that time. It's not all down to the league but it would be beyond ridiculous to suggest that the league isnt part of it. Playing rugby week in week out to improve the standard of our players was the whole point of the Celtic league in the first place.

Also, I never once said we shouldn't change the P14. In fact I came up with possible changes a few years back that I thought might work. You keep working in this black or white world where if someone disagrees with you they are saying the polar opposite to you. I've never said the league couldnt or shouldn't change. Just that we need to recognise the realities of the world we are living in and adjust our expectations to match.

awec · 17-12-2019 1:04pm

molloyjh wrote: »

What data do I have? I have the results from the 6Ns, the June internationals and the Autumn internationals. I have comparative stats against the same opposition in the periods before and the periods after the league was set-up and became established. Take a look, it's actually quite a stark difference in fortunes for Wales and Ireland around that time. It's not all down to the league but it would be beyond ridiculous to suggest that the league isnt part of it. Playing rugby week in week out to improve the standard of our players was the whole point of the Celtic league in the first place.

Also, I never once said we shouldn't change the P14. In fact I came up with possible changes a few years back that I thought might work. You keep working in this black or white world where if someone disagrees with you they are saying the polar opposite to you. I've never said the league couldnt or shouldn't change. Just that we need to recognise the realities of the world we are living in and adjust our expectations to match.

But all this suggests is that playing in a professional league, any professional league, is better than playing in a lower-standard, domestic semi-pro league.

Nothing else.

So yes, the Pro14 is better than nothing at all, but this doesn't invalidate the point that the Pro14 is rubbish.

Champions Cup Potential Changes 2022

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