Champions Cup Potential Changes 2022

awec

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have not suggested they should. They should give a damn about having a proper competition at a higher level than their domestic league. European rugby should be the highest level of competition and it is being damaged by the actions of French and English clubs. And now they are at it again.

I would like to see a more serious Pro14. But I can't understand how you could think further and further sidelining the European cup is a worthwhile way or achieving that.

Why?

I am sure they are not against a good European competition, they just don't want it to affect their own domestic league so much. This is hardly surprising.

Even in soccer, the champions league is the pinnacle club competition, but it would never be allowed to do anything that the top european leagues didn't like.

Their priorities are different to ours, and I believe our priorities need adjusting. We don't need to go from one extreme to the other, but the current balance of focus between league and europe is not going to work.

Eod100

Felix Jones is God. wrote: »

Quite the opposite would be true

Don't have stats cos not sure if many 2 legged semi final fixtures in rugby but would think it would definitely advantage stronger teams. They can afford to absorb opposition first leg and even if they lose, just need to beat them more 2nd leg. Surely also mentally, easier to gear team up for one off upset than face team over 2 legs. 1 point win does in current format.

Cookiemunster

awec wrote: »

Well then our goose is cooked. Stubbornness will end us.

Right now this league is sustained through test and european rugby. It is clear that our eggs are in these baskets. It is also clear that our partners in european rugby are seeing it as less important than we are.

If we continue to put all our eggs in this basket, and refuse to make changes to our own league, there will only be one eventual outcome.

Again. The main purpose of the league is to feed players into the international sides. The vast majority of the money invested in the Pro14 teams comes from international rugby. That's is not going to change any time soon.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm intrigued by the Champions League SF idea, though that works via the away goals rule in football. I'm not sure if it fits rugby.

It might work if you apply bonus points to it first, Aggregate scores second.

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

Why?

I am sure they are not against a good European competition, they just don't want it to affect their own domestic league so much. This is hardly surprising.

Even in soccer, the champions league is the pinnacle club competition, but it would never be allowed to do anything that the top european leagues didn't like.

Their priorities are different to ours, and I believe our priorities need adjusting. We don't need to go from one extreme to the other, but the current balance of focus between league and europe is not going to work.

This I am beginning to doubt.

I do not see how this proposal benefits the European competition one bit. It seems a lot more like they are trying to restrict the competition so that they need to do the minimum possible while still retaining some element of income from it.

errlloyd

I wish we knew more about the revenue structure - most importantly the value of the European Broadcasting and Sponsorship deals and the way this money is distributed to participants.

We know that European games get higher attendances across pretty much every club than domestic games. I suspect they get higher TV audiences too. Clubs should be able to earn more revenue per game playing in Europe than they can domestically. Right now it sounds like there isn't the financial incentive for clubs to strongly commit to Europe.

Quin_Dub

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm intrigued by the Champions League SF idea, though that works via the away goals rule in football. I'm not sure if it fits rugby.

The six pools of three idea is daft. Burn it with fire.

I don't understand this quote in relation to the 3 groups of 6 suggestion

One of the attractions of an 18-team competition would be to prevent teams from the same country from meeting each other in the pool stages, as has been the case again this year.

How exactly would they do that then?

18 teams , 6 from each league into 3 groups - How can you structure that to keep the leagues apart??

You'd have to have 2 from each at a minimum surely?

awec

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I don't understand this quote in relation to the 3 groups of 6 suggestion



How exactly would they do that then?

18 teams , 6 from each league into 3 groups - How can you structure that to keep the leagues apart??

You'd have to have 2 from each at a minimum surely?

It's 6 groups of 3, not 3 groups of 6.

With each group having 1 team from each league presumably.

troyzer

awec wrote: »

It's 6 groups of 3, not 3 groups of 6.

With each group having 1 team from each league presumably.

So two less group games.

How do they square that with a desire for more TV money?

errlloyd

You know what would be quite cool would be how the rounds would end up being structured. Each group would only have 6 games instead of the current 12 - but it would still require 6 weekends, it's just each team would only play 4 of those 6 weekends. The most logical way to structure that is to give all teams from the same domestic league the same week off.

So for example you'd have the English v French weekends, English v Celtian weekends, Celtalian v French weekends.

Now those weekends might end up being being pretty good craic. A real club 6 nations feel to them? Could even be deadly if all the away games were the same.

awec

errlloyd wrote: »

You know what would be quite cool would be how the rounds would end up being structured. Each group would only have 6 games instead of the current 12 - but it would still require 6 weekends, it's just each team would only play 4 of those 6 weekends. The most logical way to structure that is to give all teams from the same domestic league the same week off.

So for example you'd have the English v French weekends, English v Celtian weekends, Celtalian v French weekends.

Now those weekends might end up being being pretty good craic. A real club 6 nations feel to them? Could even be deadly if all the away games were the same.

That would be how it would work I think, because it's the only way that PRL would get 2 weekends back for league games.

Cookiemunster

errlloyd wrote: »

You know what would be quite cool would be how the rounds would end up being structured. Each group would only have 6 games instead of the current 12 - but it would still require 6 weekends, it's just each team would only play 4 of those 6 weekends. The most logical way to structure that is to give all teams from the same domestic league the same week off.

So for example you'd have the English v French weekends, English v Celtian weekends, Celtalian v French weekends.

Now those weekends might end up being being pretty good craic. A real club 6 nations feel to them? Could even be deadly if all the away games were the same.

Would BT sport want Premiership matches on the same weekend as European games if they still own the rights to both? Would BeIn Sport in France want TOP14 games clashing with Europe? From a TV point of view I can't see it happening.

And that also shows the biggest issue with three team pools. The last weekend one team is finished giving the other two the opportunity to get the best result for themselves. It's totally unfair from a sporting point of view.

errlloyd

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And that also shows the biggest issue with three team pools. The last weekend one team is finished giving the other two the opportunity to get the best result for themselves. It's totally unfair from a sporting point of view.

I agree with your point.

But even under the status quo there are lots of opportunities for game theory in the last weekend. For example in 2017-2018 Leinster went to last round already guaranteed a top seeding playing against Montpellier away. We easily could have sent the seconds, got whooped and not just still top the seeding, but also possibly eliminate Saracens - but we went over and beat them for the craic.

OldRio

Good grief. Here we go again.

3 teams. Good God no.

awec

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Would BT sport want Premiership matches on the same weekend as European games if they still own the rights to both? Would BeIn Sport in France want TOP14 games clashing with Europe? From a TV point of view I can't see it happening.

And that also shows the biggest issue with three team pools. The last weekend one team is finished giving the other two the opportunity to get the best result for themselves. It's totally unfair from a sporting point of view.

This kind of happens today anyway, when the teams in 4th in the last 2 or 3 rounds know they are lame ducks and behave accordingly.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

This attitude will have to change.

Seriously, long term I really do believe the Pro14 is going to have to be taken more seriously, and teams are going to have to stop seeing it as the competition to fill in the weeks between europe. I do not think today's approach is sustainable.

I'm sorry now, but I've got to call this out for what it is. A stupid post. The P14 is not seen by anyone as a competition to fill in the weeks. It is a competition that has a different end goal for the Unions than the English and French leagues goals for private clubs. That you refuse to acknowledge the need for the league to be fundamentally different to serve the game as a whole in what are much smaller countries is your failing. Not the leagues or the Unions.

And the league has proven to be quite successful in terms of what it is there for. Both Ireland and Wales have seen huge upturns in their international fortunes since its inception as their players are playing senior club rugby more regularly and they have scope to develop depth that they didnt have before. Its incredibly short sighted to not see the league for what it is and all the benefits it has brought rugby at large in Ireland particularly.

I'm sorry this is harsh, but I'm a little sick of people crapping on the league and making daft hyperbolic statements like the above. It serves its purpose well and we have to accept that it needs to be this in order for our national team to continue to see the success it has over the last 10-12 years. That funds the game in this country, and without it we can forget about the provinces ever being competitive in any competition.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm sorry now, but I've got to call this out for what it is. A stupid post. The P14 is not seen by anyone as a competition to fill in the weeks. It is a competition that has a different end goal for the Unions than the English and French leagues goals for private clubs. That you refuse to acknowledge the need for the league to be fundamentally different to serve the game as a whole in what are much smaller countries is your failing. Not the leagues or the Unions.

And the league has proven to be quite successful in terms of what it is there for. Both Ireland and Wales have seen huge upturns in their international fortunes since its inception as their players are playing senior club rugby more regularly and they have scope to develop depth that they didnt have before. Its incredibly short sighted to not see the league for what it is and all the benefits it has brought rugby at large in Ireland particularly.

I'm sorry this is harsh, but I'm a little sick of people crapping on the league and making daft hyperbolic statements like the above. It serves its purpose well and we have to accept that it needs to be this in order for our national team to continue to see the success it has over the last 10-12 years. That funds the game in thos country, and without it we can forget about the provinces ever being competitive in any competition.

This is exactly what it is.

Are you suggesting that Wales and Ireland's success is down to the Pro14? What data do you have to suggest this is true?

The Pro14 is a crap league. This is a fact, unfortunately. This is borne out by the level of interest given to it.

In a number of years time we're going to end up with a massive gulf between England and France and the rest, and the same suspects will still be saying you cannot possibly make any changes whatsoever to the Pro14 and how it is approached because anything other than the current model is very, very bad.

It is unsustainable, and desperately scouring the globe for any and all teams to add to it to try squeeze a bit more from TV at it is not going to fix it.

molloyjh

As for these proposed changes, it just further reduces the competitiveness of the pools, all but ensuring that the top 2 teams from each league make the QFs. And as others have said, the 2 leg SF idea further reduces the chances for an upset. It seems to be all about securing the places for the big sides which takes away further from the competition.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

This is exactly what it is.

Are you suggesting that Wales and Ireland's success is down to the Pro14? What data do you have to suggest this is true?

The Pro14 is a crap league. This is a fact, unfortunately. This is borne out by the level of interest given to it.

In a number of years time we're going to end up with a massive gulf between England and France and the rest, and the same suspects will still be saying you cannot possibly make any changes whatsoever to the Pro14 and how it is approached because anything other than the current model is very, very bad.

It is unsustainable, and desperately scouring the globe for any and all teams to add to it to try squeeze a bit more from TV at it is not going to fix it.

What data do I have? I have the results from the 6Ns, the June internationals and the Autumn internationals. I have comparative stats against the same opposition in the periods before and the periods after the league was set-up and became established. Take a look, it's actually quite a stark difference in fortunes for Wales and Ireland around that time. It's not all down to the league but it would be beyond ridiculous to suggest that the league isnt part of it. Playing rugby week in week out to improve the standard of our players was the whole point of the Celtic league in the first place.

Also, I never once said we shouldn't change the P14. In fact I came up with possible changes a few years back that I thought might work. You keep working in this black or white world where if someone disagrees with you they are saying the polar opposite to you. I've never said the league couldnt or shouldn't change. Just that we need to recognise the realities of the world we are living in and adjust our expectations to match.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

What data do I have? I have the results from the 6Ns, the June internationals and the Autumn internationals. I have comparative stats against the same opposition in the periods before and the periods after the league was set-up and became established. Take a look, it's actually quite a stark difference in fortunes for Wales and Ireland around that time. It's not all down to the league but it would be beyond ridiculous to suggest that the league isnt part of it. Playing rugby week in week out to improve the standard of our players was the whole point of the Celtic league in the first place.

Also, I never once said we shouldn't change the P14. In fact I came up with possible changes a few years back that I thought might work. You keep working in this black or white world where if someone disagrees with you they are saying the polar opposite to you. I've never said the league couldnt or shouldn't change. Just that we need to recognise the realities of the world we are living in and adjust our expectations to match.

But all this suggests is that playing in a professional league, any professional league, is better than playing in a lower-standard, domestic semi-pro league.

Nothing else.

So yes, the Pro14 is better than nothing at all, but this doesn't invalidate the point that the Pro14 is rubbish.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

But all this suggests is that playing in a professional league, any professional league, is better than playing in a lower-standard, domestic semi-pro league.

Nothing else.

So yes, the Pro14 is better than nothing at all, but this doesn't invalidate the point that the Pro14 is rubbish.

It invalidated the bizarre idea that its filler for the U ions. Which is the point I was addressing. It has a fairly defined place in Irish rugby (and Welsh and Scottish) that is incredibly important in terms of player development.

There are issues with the league, chief among them the Welsh regions struggles. I dont think anyone has denied that. But it is more than filler. It's one part domestic league, one part development league. We need that with such a small margin of error around player development compared to England or France plus a far higher dependence on the national team to fund the game due to disparate and smaller markets. These are things we cant change and have to accept. Not just the bare facts of them, but also what they mean in the wider context.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

It invalidated the bizarre idea that its filler for the U ions. Which is the point I was addressing. It has a fairly defined place in Irish rugby (and Welsh and Scottish) that is incredibly important in terms of player development.

There are issues with the league, chief among them the Welsh regions struggles. I dont think anyone has denied that. But it is more than filler. It's one part domestic league, one part development league. We need that with such a small margin of error around player development compared to England or France plus a far higher dependence on the national team to fund the game due to disparate and smaller markets. These are things we cant change and have to accept. Not just the bare facts of them, but also what they mean in the wider context.

I think we need to accept that the Pro14 may be seen as something more than filler to hardcore provincial rugby lovers who enjoy watching glorified A teams tog out most weeks with the odd decent match thrown in.

But to everyone else it is filler.

There is a reason it is stuck on obscure TV channels. There is a reason that these TV operators consistently refuse to release subscriber numbers. There is a reason that stadiums are half empty for pro14 games.

By and large it is struggling for relevancy. It is struggling to win hearts and minds with fans (especially in Wales), and struggling for investment, which is why they embarked on their world tour of adding in some teams that will bring a few quid with them. North Americans next yea? Can't wait.

As a spectator and supporter of rugby (as opposed to say, an IRFU blazer), I believe the Pro14 is pure garbage. It is, by some distance, the worst and least interesting professional rugby league in the world.

As each year goes on I have been attending fewer and fewer games, and watching fewer and fewer on TV, because it's just such a boring procession. Too many rubbish fixtures, too few games with strong teams.

People can suggest that I am the exception here, but I do not believe that I am, and it will be interesting to see what happens the next time TV rights come on the table.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I think we need to accept that the Pro14 may be seen as something more than filler to hardcore provincial rugby lovers who enjoy watching glorified A teams tog out most weeks with the odd decent match thrown in.

But to everyone else it is filler.

There is a reason it is stuck on obscure TV channels. There is a reason that these TV operators consistently refuse to release subscriber numbers. There is a reason that stadiums are half empty for pro14 games.

By and large it is struggling for relevancy. It is struggling to win hearts and minds with fans (especially in Wales), and struggling for investment, which is why they embarked on their world tour of adding in some teams that will bring a few quid with them. North Americans next yea? Can't wait.

As a spectator and supporter of rugby (as opposed to say, an IRFU blazer), I believe the Pro14 is pure garbage. It is, by some distance, the worst and least interesting professional rugby league in the world.

As each year goes on I have been attending fewer and fewer games, and watching fewer and fewer on TV, because it's just such a boring procession. Too many rubbish fixtures, too few games with strong teams.

People can suggest that I am the exception here, but I do not believe that I am, and it will be interesting to see what happens the next time TV rights come on the table.

You're moving the goalposts now. You initially said that it is a filler for the teams. That was what I argued. Not any of what you have written above.

lawred2

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's a very silly idea particularly in a competition that spans such a large geographical distance. I'd doubt it'll get far

Are you including SA in that? Because otherwise that doesn't make much sense

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

You're moving the goalposts now. You initially said that it is a filler for the teams. That was what I argued. Not any of what you have written above.

For the teams it is filler too. They pretend it's a serious league (and price it as if it was a serious competition), but treat it like a development league. For the best players in the league, and the strongest selections, the pro14 is absolutely filler. Keep the lads fit between the matches we really care about.

I'm not moving any goalposts. The perception of the pro14 didn't appear out of thin air, the perception is driven by how it's treated by the unions. It's run half-arsed, so the support is half-arsed. IMO this will be detrimental to rugby here in the long term.

AbusesToilets

The Pro14 isn't ****, I'd argue that the quality of rugby in it is often much more entertaining and attacking than what's seen in the Premiership. There is plenty of ****e in the other two leagues, in fact I'd argue that the fait accompli for away games in France is far more damning than anything in the Pro14.

This proposal comes across as another step by CVC to increase it's control over rugby. There are definite improvements that could be made to EC. 3 team groups and 2 leg semis are not it. Smaller groups would kill some of the magic in Europe, you'd never get a situation like this year where Leinster have the top teams from the other leagues in their groups. It also means getting rid of the Christmas double header, which is one of the best parts of the Group stages. 2 leg semis means you're completely erasing the reward for the best teams, by securing home field advantage.

The fundamental issue with the Pro14, and other leagues, is the overlapping calendar in Europe. If you could move the 6Ns forward, and the English and French would stop adding more games into their leagues, there wouldn't be any need to field weakened teams in any competition.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

For the teams it is filler too. They pretend it's a serious league (and price it as if it was a serious competition), but treat it like a development league. For the best players in the league, and the strongest selections, the pro14 is absolutely filler. Keep the lads fit between the matches we really care about.

I'm not moving any goalposts. The perception of the pro14 didn't appear out of thin air, the perception is driven by how it's treated by the unions. It's run half-arsed, so the support is half-arsed.

And how did I describe it above? As one part serious league, one part development league. It has to be partly a development league. Where else will we develop talent? We dont have the luxury of letting several blindsides be non-international options like England or France so we have to treat our league differently.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

And how did I describe it above? As one part serious league, one part development league. It has to be partly a development league. Where else will we develop talent? We dont have the luxury of letting several blindsides be non-international options like England or France so we have to treat our league differently.

You can develop talent in a serious league. Why do you think you cannot?

You aren't going to play the exact same 15 every single week. There is no problem with squad rotation, that is inevitable. The problem is the weeks where squads are decimated because some team is minus their internationals, or these other players are on an enforced layoff, or player X just doesn't play away games, or there's a european game next week and we're taking it handy this week, or we'll organise this test match for this week instead.

prawnsambo

This is nothing to do with improving the competition. It's all about clearing the calendar for domestic competitions. Especially the Premiership that is expanding to 13 teams next season. So drop two pool games and only add new games with the absolutely horrendous idea of double header semi-finals which only adds games to the few teams that will get that far. Job done.

awec

Basically:

Pro14 unions: happy to run their league as a development league, rely on big fixtures against English and French teams in Europe to bring in the dollar and maintain supporter interest. Less euro games is bad news as euro games are a huge selling point for clubs with many supporters only actually caring about the European competitions.

England / France: run their league as a proper league, Europe is a bonus if they are going well, otherwise a distraction. See their league as their main competition, want to do more to promote it and are happy to reduce the focus on Europe a bit to facilitate that.

Essentially, we are annoyed because they are looking to pull the rug from under us, even though what they are doing is really not unreasonable from their viewpoint. European games are more important to us than they are to them. We can either moan about this, or we can take steps to reduce our reliance on clubs that sit in leagues that really do not give much of a stuff about our teams, and one of those steps has to be to increase the income from our own league, which can only happen through some change of attitude toward it.