Charging for charging - per minute or per kWh?

unkel wrote: »

No, I want the charging network to be fit for purpose, so several new multi-bay fast charging stations. Say 8-16 bays for starters within a year, which can be later extended to say 40-60 bays

But if that doesn't happen quick enough, we will get queues again like we had up until this week. This must be avoided at all costs and the only way to avoid it is charge. Heavily if needs be.

The obvious way to avoid it is to extend the network.

We would all be much better off is we refused to accept any other solution, and made sure we 'encourage' the extension of the network in whatever manner we can manage.

liamog wrote: »

So basically you are in favour of a per-minute fee, but with first 45 minutes being a grace period charged only per kWh.

Nice railroad attempt there. No, I am not in favour of per minute charging. There are a number of ways and increments the overstay charge could be expanded upon.

Overstaying by 1 minute, 3 minute, 5 minute intervals at increasing fees is one way. Or the per kWh rate increases for the entire charge on top of an overstay fee if the customer is there for 60 minutes (or some other number). Another way could be to introduce penalty charges per kWh used for a 30 day period if the customer overstays more than once in each 3 month cycle.

But no, i'm not in favour of per minute charging. I am in favour of moving people on as quickly as is reasonable without unfairly penalising them for having slower charging batteries. That's why there is an overstay fee and this can be adjusted in time if necessary.

pwurple wrote: »

I expect it to be funded from our taxation, same as I expect other infrastructure projects to be completed in the same manner. Power plants, fibre lines, water pipes, road networks etc. I expect to pay for usage, but not for the underlying infrastructure.


Ireland is at innovator level of EV market penetration here, not even to early adopter yet. 0.5% of the population cannot be expected to fund the infrastructure up front that will benefit the whole country.

It should not be centrally funded at all.

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Why not, if our government was clever all capital elements of infrastructure would be built and owned by them from public funding and then charged/rental for use to private companies.

Examples

EV charging grid
Fibre broadband grid
5G grid

Essentially anything that is worthwhile controlled by ourselves but that can be monitized to bring in income on an ongoing basis yet keep the infrastructure.

This would lead to better grid control - think of 4g access and the amount of duplication of mobile masts at present.
Better planning of coverage - EV charging stations in places necessary - not duplicated in small batches by private companies.

Why not let private industry win out. This isnt commieland

ELM327 wrote: »

Why not let private industry win out. This isnt commieland

Nothing to do with commieland at all. Our capitalise government (i have zero problem with capitalism) earns ongoing income that allows it to constantly upgrade systems into the future while ensuring that there is a strategic plan to the outlay.

Private industry rents the infrastructure and charges customers accordingly but essentially multiple private companies can provide the service and different plans as they only need service and billing systems not the capital to build it.

This is the same as Tesco using Three mobile systems but instead the government (ourselves) is Three.

We can still have a very wide and flexible private industry for whatever - ev charging, broadband, mobile but we get to earn some of the profits back or utilise it for further investment in systems.

liamog wrote: »

Going to show some of my politics here, I'm a market socialist.
The government should step in where a natural monopoly is the most efficient organisation. A natural monopoly exists where there are high start up costs and huge efficencies of scale.

However, DC rapid charging is not a natural monopoly. The CAPEX of an individual charger is high, but it scales linearly. We currently have 6 providers of DC rapid chargers in Ireland. If Fastned wanted to set up a station in Ireland tomorrow they only need to find a site, request a grid connection, and install the charger.

I'll disagree with your political leanings (I'm a free market capitalist through and through) but I agree with their implications here.
We do not need a state company - this is self evidenced by the fact there are already private networks operating here. It's not the black hole it was even 3 years ago! We have Tesla, Ionity and Easygo all of whom look to be expanding

ELM327 wrote:

per kW or per kWh? In Norway they have tiered pricing in some places based on the max kW that the charger can deliver. EG 50kW charger 25c/min but 150kW is 35c etc

Easygo

The fee for DC Chargers is €0.24 connection and a rate of €0.17 to €0.35 per minute of connection.

€0.17/minute Tariff applies when EV Maximum Charging Power in a session is between 1-20kW

€0.25/minute Tariff applies when EV Maximum Charging Power in a session is between 21-35kW

€0.35/minute Tariff applies when EV Maximum Charging Power in a session is between 36-50kW

Doesn't it penalise faster charging cars? PHEVs can charge away for an hour...

McGiver wrote: »

I lived in communism. What you label as communism is not communism at all, you have no clue. Have you been outside of the islands? Germany for example

I'm obviously not going to respond positively to such pejorative nonsense.
Socialist, communist, whatever nonsense you want to call it, it's government control of the market and it is not welcome.

McGiver wrote: »

Easygo



Doesn't it penalise faster charging cars? PHEVs can charge away for an hour...

Yes it does, I don't like it based on the car it should be based in the charger output!

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm obviously not going to respond positively to such pejorative nonsense.
Socialist, communist, whatever nonsense you want to call it, it's government control of the market and it is not welcome.!

So you are happy with the way eircom was privatised and then used by various non taxpaying BVI/Cayman/etc resident capitalists to load it up with debt and strangle any investment due to the level of debt. IRC it has been milked for 15 billion in this way

We, joe taxpayer are now stumping up, what is it, 3 bn for the BB rollout, which we won't own for 30 years.

The Labour manifesto in the UK is the way to go

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yes that should be compared to a similar graph for a Zoe or other small car.

I don't have an "official" charging curve for ZOE's. However, they start with a handicap. The few Qs existent can charge at 43 < 50DC and the majority Rs charge at 22kW anyway which is less than half. There are not too many 22 chargers along motorways.



I have added Leaf24 on my cost analysis



Basically what is below the blue dotted line is cheaper than time based model. On the bright side they have no reason to pay the overstay fee.
I will look at leaf40 as they are the most EV taxis on the streets now. Taxis require fast charging and they are heavily subsidized by the gov.

kennethsmyth wrote:

Per minute or per kwh?

Leave kWh but increase overstay charge... Can be reduced once more resources are on place.

Once there are fast chargers on place it will have to be per min. Like fastned.

Calahonda52 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/23/driver-fined-100-at-bp-for-taking-too-long

Both BP and Shell have been quietly signing up parking firms to install CCTV cameras at the entrances and exits to petrol stations, which are then used to enforce a maximum stay limit – which can be 30 minutes at a BP station and as little as 20 minutes at a Shell station. Fail to comply, and you’ll face £100 demands and the threat of debt collectors.

Simple enough Idea for use at EV charging points

We are not the UK and gave no wish to have such onerous overview. Any station tries that in Ireland will have a nightmare on social media

kennethsmyth wrote: »

We are not the UK and gave no wish to have such onerous overview. Any station tries that in Ireland will have a nightmare on social media

Social media, the last bastion of democracy.
.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/nov/22/sacha-baron-cohen-facebook-would-have-sold-final-solution-ads-to-hitler

We actually need more surveillance, including an ID card.
.

McGiver wrote: »

I'd agree. CCTV police state - no thanks.

There are tech solutions how to enforce time limits on chargers if needed.

Such as?

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Such as?

ECars can monitor time of the session and disconnect automatically after X min. A bit harsh but technically totally feasible if they wanted to do that...