Charging for charging - per minute or per kWh?

liamog wrote:

So basically you are in favour of a per-minute fee, but with first 45 minutes being a grace period charged only per kWh.

Yes combined per kW and per min charge is best. And I'd do 30 mins per kW not 45 min. The problem with combined pricing model is that it's not simple to explain to me ordinary folk.

Another option is this:
0-30 min - 0.33/kW
31-45 mins - 0.66/kW
46+ mins - 0.99/kW

Solves everything...and it is doesn't compound two variables like per min & per kW charge.

samih wrote: »

So you would be happy to stay behind somebody for an extra hour balancing their battery taking another 2 kWh going from 97 to 100% and only paying 2 yoyos.

Not solving everything. However per minute solves everything as it ensures it would be in your best interest to select a quick charging car if you need public charging regularly. And there would be very specific incentive to disconnect as soon as you can instead of trickle charging that last kWh.

" select a quick charging car if you need public charging regularly"

You think people are able to "select" a quick charging car. Nope they "select" what they can afford.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If you wish to charge per time period then ban the sale of slow charging cars and get rid of slow chargers, so that all consumers are treated equally.

Otherwise a simple charge per Kw is the only way to treat everyone equally.

If the gov provides a grant for a slow charging car, and that is what I can afford, why should I be penalised by being charged more for my 'fuel' that the guy next door who can afford a fast charging vehicle, also supported by gov subsidy?

*Per kWh.


And you are using the same resource (time connected) regardless of what speed you are taking. The charger can deliver 50kW - if you're taking 10-15 then that's a bad use of a facility and you should have bought a different car.

creedp wrote: »

Could FCP's be configured to provide a minimum level of power, i.e. once a charge drawn reduces to say 10kwh the charger automatically stops the charging session? This would ensure that the 'tricklers' don't excessively delay other EV users without fleecing slower charging EV owners with per minute charging.

*kW


And yes I agree, if you are taking 10kW the charger should disconnect.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So you wish to encourage those who cannot afford the exhorbitant price of BEVs to drive ICE vehicles?

That seems to be contrary to the gov's intention.

The answer is simple ...... do NOT charge the 'less well off' more for the same amount of 'fuel'.

No, just to charge everyone the same for the same resource

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What people are buying is 'fuel for their car', so charge for the fuel.
Simple really.

What else are people getting at such charge points that they want to buy and should be charged for?

There's two commodities
: Fuel - so charge per kWh
: Time - so charge per min

ELM327 wrote: »

There's two commodities
: Fuel - so charge per kWh
: Time - so charge per min

The customer does not go there to buy time, only fuel.

If the gov refuse to subsidise slow charging BEVs then they will not be bought.
That gets rid of that problem ...... but of course introduces another because the price of BEVs are beyond what the majority can afford, and so ICE vehicles will continue to sell in great numbers.

What you describe is like an ICE car filling up with a big nozzle (like truck) or a smaller one and each being charged for how long it takes to fill up, as well as being charged for the fuel purchased.

I would be in favour of charging a consumer who left their vehicle blocking a charger after they had filled to say 80% over a long period.

Hammering the less well off who try to do their bit for the environment is neither equitable nor acceptable.

Maybe a better scheme would be to charge a lot extra if you have a vehicle which can take a high rate of charge!
Yeah, base the cost to the customer on the 'charge rate' of the vehicle!

Equally as inequitable as what you propose.

ELM327 wrote: »

What EV do you drive, to examine your perspective?

My view is stated in the posts.

What I drive .... or even if I drive at all ..... is immaterial.

ELM327 wrote: »

For comparison with your absent EV and correlated lack of experience of EV ownership, I have done 120k km in 3 years total with 3 different EVs (24kWh leaf, 2017 Ioniq and now Tesla Model S).


Even if I still had my leaf, I'd be happy at per minute or per kWh charges

I do not see the relevance.

This is a discussion about an equitable means of charging drivers of ALL BEVs for the fuel purchased at charge points.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I do not see the relevance.

This is a discussion about an equitable means of charging drivers of ALL BEVs for the fuel purchased at charge points.

I'm not sure if you are being purposely obtuse or not


There are two resources, the time spent connected and the energy consumed. Think of it like any other similar resource - like a car wash - you are charged for time connected instead of the energy or water used.


Either are a perfectly cromulent way of charging for use, pay per kWh may make more sense to non-EV drivers due to the similarity with fossil fuels. I think that is what happened here.

creedp wrote: »

Ah now its easy to say that when you have a Model S:)

I only got the S recently... my attitude was the same in the Ioniq and the Leaf. I remember queues of 3-4 cars for the fast chargers in Dublin... they now sit idle except for people who actually need them.

kennethsmyth wrote: »

"they now sit idle except for people who actually need them"

You've just proved the point that the kwh charge and overstay charge works - no need for charge per min.

There's no need now, correct.
This thread however is about preferences and my preference was for time (like in Norway).

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not sure if you are being purposely obtuse or not


There are two resources, the time spent connected and the energy consumed. Think of it like any other similar resource - like a car wash - you are charged for time connected instead of the energy or water used.


Either are a perfectly cromulent way of charging for use, pay per kWh may make more sense to non-EV drivers due to the similarity with fossil fuels. I think that is what happened here.




I only got the S recently... my attitude was the same in the Ioniq and the Leaf. I remember queues of 3-4 cars for the fast chargers in Dublin... they now sit idle except for people who actually need them.

I know so charging per Kw is actually working... no need to move to a charge per minute model.

innrain wrote: »

[img]http s://i.imgur.com/IwC89IK.png[/img]

This is the cost vs time for charging a Kona from 10% to 97% on a DC50kW charger. The red line is the price model per kWh, the black is the same with the added overstay fee and the blue line is the time model based on the same cost in the first 45 minutes. For the first 45 minutes it does not matter the price model. However, the added overstay fee is more expensive in comparison with the time based model up to minute ~90.
The time bases would be more expensive per km driver for PHEV's but would also hurt all Leafs and Zoes which are a good chunk of EV's on the road. Maybe when this 50kW infrastructure is well developed and they introduce the 150kW they should discourage the used of those very expensive resources by the slow charging cars.

Yes that should be compared to a similar graph for a Zoe or other small car.

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not sure if you are being purposely obtuse or not

Really?
Because I disagree with your opinion, and stated clearly why, you consider that obtuse?

There are two resources, the time spent connected and the energy consumed. Think of it like any other similar resource - like a car wash - you are charged for time connected instead of the energy or water used.


Either are a perfectly cromulent way of charging for use, pay per kWh may make more sense to non-EV drivers due to the similarity with fossil fuels. I think that is what happened here.

As I stated, pay per Kwh makes it more equitable for the majority of drivers who will drive smaller cars with smaller batteries, which most likely will continue to have slower charging in the future.

I only got the S recently... my attitude was the same in the Ioniq and the Leaf. I remember queues of 3-4 cars for the fast chargers in Dublin... they now sit idle except for people who actually need them.