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Dunmurry Springs GC closed 12.11.19

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24

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    #32
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,340 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    I hate when people answer a question with another question. My wife does that all the time and it drives me insane.

    Just answer his question if that was your implication or not


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    #33
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,886 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Rikand wrote: »
    I hate when people answer a question with another question. My wife does that all the time and it drives me insane.

    Just answer his question if that was your implication or not

    I think you're in the wrong thread for marriage guidance!!


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    #34
    Rackstar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭Rackstar


    Rikand wrote: »
    I hate when people answer a question with another question. My wife does that all the time and it drives me insane.

    Just answer his question if that was your implication or not

    Maybe you could get your wife to read the post and paraphrase it for you? That is if she’s not already driving you insane and you are not hating her.


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    #35
    silver2020
    Registered Users Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭silver2020


    charlieIRL wrote: »
    Read that AIB Sold the loan to a Vulture fund, that makes my blood boil. We had to bail these guys out and this is how they repay us?

    Sorry to all involved in DS, shame to see any course closing.

    Members should be cheering that a fund has bought it.

    This utter sh1te that the scum media get people worked up about "vulture" funds, is exactly that. Utter sh1te.

    Banks will NEVER do a deal on debt unless forced by a court after a long expensive legal process.

    Funds buy blocks of loan and want to flip them at a profit as soon as possible - they don't go to court, they don't chase you for life, they simply get as good a deal as possible, hopefully make a profit and write off the residual.


    Weather over the past few weeks has meant probably zero green fees.


    No option but to close and hope a deal can be done that will either have a members based club or new owners without massive debt hanging over them.

    Personally, i think this is a good day - temporarily bad news, but long term excellent.

    I've recently moved back from the UK and living in Kildare and will be watching if a members buyout opportunity becomes available (I'll join it as I payed it once and loved it)


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    #36
    Kingswood Rover
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Kingswood Rover


    "Scum Media" sorry similar to the lad on top of the double docker and his honest assertion on tracker mortgage's, i do not know what "scum media" is please enlighten me.


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    #37
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,033 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    There are clubs out there taking out loans to survive until the end of the year until membership renewal is due.

    I would expect that the vast majority of member clubs operate this way, albeit via an overdraft facility


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    #38
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,340 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    I had a weak moment last night and I'd like to bail out right now :)


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    #39
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,697 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Delvin Castle also closed end of 2018 I think and Woodlands a few years back

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    #40
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,012 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Off the top of my head, the following have closed:
    Glencullen
    Glen of the Downs
    Killin Park
    Frankfield
    Glenmalure
    Navan
    Knockanally
    Hollystown
    Turvey

    South County reopened as Lisheen Spriings
    Rathsallagh subsequently sold and reopened.
    downthemiddle wrote: »
    Vartry Lakes
    Dublin City
    Hazel Grove
    Bodenstown
    Woodlands
    slave1 wrote: »
    Delvin Castle also closed end of 2018 I think and Woodlands a few years back
    Woodlands already listed, so that makes 16 that have closed permanently. At least as far as I can make out, they're permanent closures. It's not horrendous if that's the total. I'm not including Dunmurry Springs since we don't know yet if it will be re-opened.


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    #41
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,340 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    Wasnt there a woodford golf club in south galway too. Doesnt seem to be there anymore or no mention that I can find. Down passed curra west


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    #42
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,012 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Rikand wrote: »
    Wasnt there a woodford golf club in south galway too. Doesnt seem to be there anymore or no mention that I can find. Down passed curra west
    Assuming you're not talking about Curra West, I can't find any mention of another golf club around there. Even a forum search turns up nothing.


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    #43
    PARlance
    Registered Users Posts: 21,093 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Woodlands already listed, so that makes 16 that have closed permanently. At least as far as I can make out, they're permanent closures. It's not horrendous if that's the total. I'm not including Dunmurry Springs since we don't know yet if it will be re-opened.

    Could only be the tip of the iceberg.

    That's a bit dramatic but there's plenty of trouble coming down the line. We're still "overpopulated" with courses (compared to pre-boom figures) and the average age of golfers is at a worrying level and rising... the next 5-10 years will see a significant drop off in club members (due to old age and death unfortunately, and trends are that they're not going to be replaced in significant numbers).

    I wouldn't be surprised to see at least another 16 courses close in the next 2-3 years. Hopefully not, but the warning signs have been there for some time.


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    #44
    SeanF
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭SeanF


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Off the top of my head, the following have closed:
    Glencullen
    Glen of the Downs
    Killin Park
    Frankfield
    Glenmalure
    Navan
    Knockanally
    Hollystown
    Turvey

    South County reopened as Lisheen Spriings
    Rathsallagh subsequently sold and reopened.
    Hollystown looks pretty open to me:
    http://www.hollystown.com/index.htm
    https://www.facebook.com/Hollystown/


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    #45
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,012 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    PARlance wrote: »
    Could only be the tip of the iceberg.

    That's a bit dramatic but there's plenty of trouble coming down the line. We're still "overpopulated" with courses (compared to pre-boom figures) and the average age of golfers is at a worrying level and rising... the next 5-10 years will see a significant drop off in club members (due to old age and death unfortunately, and trends are that they're not going to be replaced in significant numbers).

    I wouldn't be surprised to see at least another 16 courses close in the next 2-3 years. Hopefully not, but the warning signs have been there for some time.
    By my count (from www.gogolfing.ie there are 388 golf clubs of which 88 are in Northern Ireland. So 300 spread around the 26 counties, averaging about 11 each. Some counties have surprisingly few, Limerick for example having only six, Cork has 30 and Dublin has 51 plus I suspect a lot of North/West Wicklow and East Kildare could be added in there too. I suspect that it's those highly populated areas that may have trouble in the future.


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    #46
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,012 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    SeanF wrote: »
    Hollystown looks pretty open to me:
    http://www.hollystown.com/index.htm
    https://www.facebook.com/Hollystown/
    It's supposed to be closing at the end of the year: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=111391168


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    #47
    MillField
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭MillField


    Am I right in saying that Dunmurry Springs featured on At Your Service on RTE a few years back? Shame to see it close.


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    #48
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,012 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    MillField wrote: »
    Am I right in saying that Dunmurry Springs featured on At Your Service on RTE a few years back? Shame to see it close.
    Just over a year ago in fact.
    Simon Holohan's family build a golf course on their farming land a decade ago. Now they need to increase revenues, but securing more planning permission is just one obstacle they face.


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    #49
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,697 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    By my count (from www.gogolfing.ie) there are 388 golf clubs of which 88 are in Northern Ireland. So 300 spread around the 26 counties, averaging about 11 each. Some counties have surprisingly few, Limerick for example having only six, Cork has 30 and Dublin has 51 plus I suspect a lot of North/West Wicklow and East Kildare could be added in there too. I suspect that it's those highly populated areas that may have trouble in the future.

    County Longford is the only 18hole course in County Longford!!!

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    My Active Ads (adverts.ie)



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    #50
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,012 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    slave1 wrote: »
    County Longford is the only 18hole course in County Longford!!!
    Yeah. Even little Leitrim has twice that. :eek:


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    #51
    brick tamland
    Registered Users Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭brick tamland


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    According to reports the same vulture fund has bought the loans for Seapoint and two other courses in Leinster. I'm sure there are some very nervous members having heard that news about their club. It's never nice to hear of clubs in trouble.

    I imagine the land Seapoint is on, is much more valuable as a golf course than anything else. It wouldn’t be in anyone’s interest to close it down. Its different from Dunmurry springs in that way.


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    #52
    DaveyLad
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭DaveyLad


    brick tamland wrote: »
    I imagine the land Seapoint is on, is much more valuable as a golf course than anything else. It wouldn’t be in anyone’s interest to close it down. Its different from Dunmurry springs in that way.

    That's not different from Dunmurry, the course, club and land are worth approximately twice the outstanding debt which is why the fund were so happy to take it off the banks hands, there's loads of equity and they'll be able to move it on


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    #53
    Kingswood Rover
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Kingswood Rover


    DaveyLad wrote: »
    That's not different from Dunmurry, the course, club and land are worth approximately twice the outstanding debt which is why the fund were so happy to take it off the banks hands, there's loads of equity and they'll be able to move it on
    Are there any moves by the members to keep it running even on an interim basis


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    #54
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,033 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    DaveyLad wrote: »
    That's not different from Dunmurry, the course, club and land are worth approximately twice the outstanding debt which is why the fund were so happy to take it off the banks hands, there's loads of equity and they'll be able to move it on
    How are they valuing the land ? What zone, agri or residential?


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    #55
    DaveyLad
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭DaveyLad


    GreeBo wrote: »
    How are they valuing the land ? What zone, agri or residential?

    There's approx 160 acres secured by around €1.2mil in debt so no matter how it's zoned with land prices in Kildare there are no equity issues, the land was originally a dairy farm so I'd imagine that's how it's zoned but there have been changes in the area since the course opened


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    #56
    Ollieboy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭Ollieboy


    DaveyLad wrote: »
    There's approx 160 acres secured by around €1.2mil in debt so no matter how it's zoned with land prices in Kildare there are no equity issues, the land was originally a dairy farm so I'd imagine that's how it's zoned but there have been changes in the area since the course opened

    160 less about 30 to 40 for lakes etc leaves 120 and its worth at best €10,000 to €12,000 a acre. I would go with the lower price. It’s not an ideal location for housing and it’s not ideal for high quality farming.

    I reckon with that membership and income they weren’t servicing the debt, hence why it’s closed.

    Depending on what the fund bought it for, they might let it go for a fair price to the members who to me, would be the only interested buyers.

    200 members put up 5k each and they could own the place and 1k a year subs and get it up and running again, but it needs to happen fast.

    Seapoint will be interesting, it’s described as a links course but not everyone agrees with that comment and it’s an ideal location for housing at the top end of the market. The debt would be nearly 200k a year without capital payments. So it needs a deal of some sort to stay alive.

    They also bought the debt of two other clubs but no details provide which usually means they are doing deals or assessing it.


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    #57
    DaveyLad
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭DaveyLad


    Kingswood Rover wrote: »
    Are there any moves by the members to keep it running even on an interim basis

    Yes we're opening this weekend for a members comp, and are in discussions to do the same for the next few weekends (weather permitting) until we know what the future is


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    #58
    xgronkjabv6pcl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 294 ✭✭xgronkjabv6pcl


    Ollieboy wrote: »
    160 less about 30 to 40 for lakes etc leaves 120 and its worth at best €10,000 to €12,000 a acre. I would go with the lower price. It’s not an ideal location for housing and it’s not ideal for high quality farming.

    This is not quite accurate for the area though I admit it's not likely to be too far away. I own a piece of agricultural land approx 1 mile from Dunmurray Springs, along the same road and recently had a per acre valuation substantially more than figures you have quoted.

    The land which Dunmurray is on may not be quite as desirable given lakes and alike as you suggested. I also agree that a 2x valuation of the land over and above the €1.2m in debt is a tad unrealistic but based upon the numbers I have been quoted in the past 6 months, I suspect the value of the land covers the debt rather comfortably.

    Additionally having read the thread, I am somewhat bewildered that the closure came at such a shock to members given the feedback I heard about the club during the summer. It's disappointing as I was a member there at one point, it's a fine course but unfortunately I think it will continue to struggle to be profitable.


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    #59
    moycullen14
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭moycullen14


    Are there any examples of clubs that went into receivership and were bought out by the members and continued to operate successfully?

    Looking at my own club, I find it hard to imagine it being done. We can't agree on anything :-)

    The best thing to do with most rural clubs (financially) would be to replace the golfers with cows? Can't see how the vast majority of rural clubs make any money at all ... and there's a lot of effort required to run a golf course.


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    #60
    londonred
    Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭londonred


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Yeah. Even little Leitrim has twice that. :eek:

    I thought Ballinamore was the only Golf course in Leitrim?


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    #61
    doublecross
    Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭doublecross


    moycullen14 wrote: »
    Are there any examples of clubs that went into receivership and were bought out by the members and continued to operate successfully?

    Ballyneety. It was closed for a year or two before reopening. Members put a lot of work in to get it back in shape.


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