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Dunmurry Springs GC closed 12.11.19

«13

Comments

  • #2
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Damn fine course and they acknowledged the poor layout with the new routing a few years back, glad I got to play it a few times...shame


  • #3
    Golfgraffix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,833 ✭✭✭Golfgraffix


    Unfortunately so, email went out to the members today.

    Looks like the banks sold on their loan book and withdrew their credit line. Tough time of year with no real operating capital to loose even a small credit line.


  • #4
    Kingswood Rover
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Kingswood Rover


    Very Sad, not sure of the amount of members they had anecdotally hearing it was around 100 fulls, Millicent, Newbridge and Cill Dara would be options locally for members looking to continue playing.


  • #5
    DaveyLad
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭DaveyLad


    Kingswood Rover wrote: »
    Very Sad, not sure of the amount of members they had anecdotally hearing it was around 100 fulls, Millicent, Newbridge and Cill Dara would be options locally for members looking to continue playing.

    We'd approx 185 at last count and to say we're all shocked and saddened at the announcement is an understatement, just a horrible sad day for us as members and for the lads who have lost their livelihood


  • #6
    ShivasIrons
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 750 ✭✭✭ShivasIrons


    Is it really a surprise to see it close? The location wasn’t great and when the location isn’t great the course needs to be exceptional. It didn’t seem like the course was anything special to me.


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  • #7
    Benicetomonty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    Thought it was a nice course for the most part, 1 or 2 holes excepted. Seems to me that it was struggling from day one sadly, clubhouse build was delayed for a few years if memory serves. Ambitious project that was carried out at a really unfortunate time given everything that happened since it was opened. Actually surprised its lasted this long.

    Hard luck on the owners who looked to have tried very hard to make a go of it and obviously the staff, greenkeepers and members. Have to wonder at the abruptness of the closure however. Likely a lot of avenues were exhausted in the end.


  • #8
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,128 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    DaveyLad wrote: »
    We'd approx 185 at last count and to say we're all shocked and saddened at the announcement is an understatement, just a horrible sad day for us as members and for the lads who have lost their livelihood

    Sorry to hear this. It must be a terrible time for all the members and employees. I can only imagine how you felt when the news broke.


  • #9
    DaveyLad
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭DaveyLad


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    Sorry to hear this. It must be a terrible time for all the members and employees. I can only imagine how you felt when the news broke.

    Thanks, Came out of nowhere really, we knew things were tough but we (mens club committee) were not aware it was close the doors tough, certainly not at no notice, we were a few members short of where we wanted to be but had plans in place to try and increase things going forward, wasn't to be unfortunately. It's the family who owned the club and land and the staff, especially the head greenkeeper who I feel it for most.


  • #10
    Kevinmarkham
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭Kevinmarkham


    Benicetomonty wrote: »
    Thought it was a nice course for the most part, 1 or 2 holes excepted. Seems to me that it was struggling from day one sadly, clubhouse build was delayed for a few years if memory serves. Ambitious project that was carried out at a really unfortunate time given everything that happened since it was opened. Actually surprised its lasted this long.

    Hard luck on the owners who looked to have tried very hard to make a go of it and obviously the staff, greenkeepers and members. Have to wonder at the abruptness of the closure however. Likely a lot of avenues were exhausted in the end.

    I'd agree with that. Unfortunate timing and the delay in building the clubhouse didn't help its cause. I enjoyed playing it and played the course on one of the Boards outings.

    And with West Waterford up for sale (and no guarantee it'll survive) that's two fun courses gone that few people ever talk about.


  • #11
    Ollieboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭Ollieboy


    This might be the perfect opportunity for the members to buy it cheap? The land can’t be turned back into agriculture for 7 years and it’s not a great site for housing. So not many options for it.

    I liked the track but any course with 180 odd members is not going anyway, it’s just not creating enough cash for labor, materials or machinery. I played it a few times and each time you could see the drop in quality.

    It really suffered from bad timing in relation to its launch, during better times this course would have found its market.

    I would be sad to see it go, but we’ve to many damn course in this country, but this was a good track.


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  • #12
    Rikand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,421 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    I've a friend who's a member there and I always enjoyed playing the course. I'm very sorry and sad to see it go


  • #13
    charlieIRL
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭charlieIRL


    Read that AIB Sold the loan to a Vulture fund, that makes my blood boil. We had to bail these guys out and this is how they repay us?

    Sorry to all involved in DS, shame to see any course closing.


  • #14
    SeanF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 147 ✭✭SeanF


    Very sad to see it closed. I live in Newbridge and hadn't yet played it, though I was planning to play it next year.

    Hopefully the local clubs - Curragh, Newbridge, Cill Dara, Millicent - will be welcoming to their members, e.g. by not charging a joining levy or demanding they jump through silly hoops to sign up.


  • #15
    Hallowed
    Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭Hallowed


    Kevinmarkham wrote: »
    I'd agree with that. Unfortunate timing and the delay in building the clubhouse didn't help its cause. I enjoyed playing it and played the course on one of the Boards outings.

    And with West Waterford up for sale (and no guarantee it'll survive) that's two fun courses gone that few people ever talk about.

    West Waterford was a actually doing OK. 50% owner wants out and banks won't finance other 50% owner to buy out.


  • #16
    Russman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,914 ✭✭✭Russman


    Sad to see any course go under, especially when it seems they didn't have a lot of choice in the matter, totally agree with Charlie above - banks and vulture funds make my blood boil.

    Would the membership have been predominately local ? If so, there's a good choice of clubs in the general ish area and maybe groups of members who wish to still golf with each other would be able to strike deals......


  • #17
    evillive
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 445 ✭✭evillive


    Always a challenging course, with some great holes, the lakes and water placement i found as good as anywhere in the country, and as a member of Cill Dara have been involved in the inter club Cross Cup we played against Dunmurray each year with the top players from the golfer of the year rankings and some provincial towns matches too

    I suppose the door is open for a new investor if the price is right which would be tough on the current owners after all their efforts but it has worked with other clubs in similar situations over the years

    Cill Dara has opened its doors to dunmurray members to play there at no charge for the rest of 2019 and it would be good to see the other neighbouring clubs do the same to give the dunmurray folks fair food for thought as to where they might join in 2020.


  • #18
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    charlieIRL wrote: »
    Read that AIB Sold the loan to a Vulture fund, that makes my blood boil. We had to bail these guys out and this is how they repay us?

    Sorry to all involved in DS, shame to see any course closing.

    You'd be bailing them out again if they kept non performing loans on the books.
    A so called vulture fund is just a fund like any other.


  • #19
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You'd be bailing them out again if they kept non performing loans on the books.
    A so called vulture fund is just a fund like any other.
    There's a balance where it becomes a decision as to whether it's worth the resources to keep managing it or just cut your losses and sell it off. At least AIB are paying the money back, albeit very slowly. B of I have paid back all bail out money with interest.


  • #20
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,128 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    According to reports the same vulture fund has bought the loans for Seapoint and two other courses in Leinster. I'm sure there are some very nervous members having heard that news about their club. It's never nice to hear of clubs in trouble.


  • #21
    Dbu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭Dbu


    Kevinmarkham wrote: »
    I'd agree with that. Unfortunate timing and the delay in building the clubhouse didn't help its cause. I enjoyed playing it and played the course on one of the Boards outings.

    And with West Waterford up for sale (and no guarantee it'll survive) that's two fun courses gone that few people ever talk about.

    Unfortunately I think that there are a lot more going to go countrywide.
    Im based in Cork and there are serious concerns that one of the 'main 4 city clubs' is in really serious trouble on the back of an extravagant clubhouse build. All office/bar staff gone or going and bar given to the caterer.


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  • #22
    Mushy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,477 ✭✭✭✭Mushy


    Dbu wrote: »
    Unfortunately I think that there are a lot more going to go countrywide.
    Im based in Cork and there are serious concerns that one of the 'main 4 city clubs' is in really serious trouble on the back of an extravagant clubhouse build. All office/bar staff gone or going and bar given to the caterer.

    Is this a club that apparently required a levy from all members?


  • #23
    Dbu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭Dbu


    Mushy wrote: »
    Is this a club that apparently required a levy from all members?
    Yes, a few months back and that was just to keep ticking over until year end. I have a good few friends members there and they are extremely worried.


  • #24
    ShivasIrons
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 750 ✭✭✭ShivasIrons


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    According to reports the same vulture fund has bought the loans for Seapoint and two other courses in Leinster. I'm sure there are some very nervous members having heard that news about their club. It's never nice to hear of clubs in trouble.

    Why would they be nervous? If the clubs are viable there is no issue. They just continue to repay their loan just to a different lender.


  • #25
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52,222 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    According to reports the same vulture fund has bought the loans for Seapoint and two other courses in Leinster. I'm sure there are some very nervous members having heard that news about their club. It's never nice to hear of clubs in trouble.

    Love Seapoint. It’s my “lucky course “ as I always have a good score there.
    Would not like to see it close but it’s in serious trouble I am hearing.

    Anyone know how many clubs have closed since the recession began in 08/09 ?


  • #26
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Love Seapoint. It’s my “lucky course “ as I always have a good score there.
    Would not like to see it close but it’s in serious trouble I am hearing.

    Anyone know how many clubs have closed since the recession began in 08/09 ?
    Off the top of my head, the following have closed:
    Glencullen
    Glen of the Downs
    Killin Park
    Frankfield
    Glenmalure
    Navan
    Knockanally
    Hollystown
    Turvey

    South County reopened as Lisheen Spriings
    Rathsallagh subsequently sold and reopened.


  • #27
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,128 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    ShivasIrons wrote: »
    Why would they be nervous? If the clubs are viable there is no issue. They just continue to repay their loan just to a different lender.

    Let's be honest. The number of clubs struggling to remain viable is on the increase. There is particular pressure on them at this time of year when income is at its lowest. There are clubs out there taking out loans to survive until the end of the year until membership renewal is due. A number of clubs have had their debts written down. The number of golfers in Ireland is decreasing while the age profile of those playing is rising. That is not viable in the long term. There are clubs out there who built monuments to the Celtic Tiger. The costs of their repayments are crippling them and they are only surviving through the goodwill of their banks. Any selling on of their loans will result in inevitable closure.


  • #28
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,128 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Off the top of my head, the following have closed:
    Glencullen
    Glen of the Downs
    Killin Park
    Frankfield
    Glenmalure
    Navan
    Knockanally
    Hollystown
    Turvey

    South County reopened as Lisheen Spriings
    Rathsallagh subsequently sold and reopened.
    Vartry Lakes
    Dublin City
    Hazel Grove
    Bodenstown
    Woodlands


  • #29
    AhHaor
    Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭AhHaor


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    Vartry Lakes
    Dublin City
    Hazel Grove
    Bodenstown
    Woodlands

    Kilcoole


  • #30
    ShivasIrons
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 750 ✭✭✭ShivasIrons


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    Let's be honest. The number of clubs struggling to remain viable is on the increase. There is particular pressure on them at this time of year when income is at its lowest. There are clubs out there taking out loans to survive until the end of the year until membership renewal is due. A number of clubs have had their debts written down. The number of golfers in Ireland is decreasing while the age profile of those playing is rising. That is not viable in the long term. There are clubs out there who built monuments to the Celtic Tiger. The costs of their repayments are crippling them and they are only surviving through the goodwill of their banks. Any selling on of their loans will result in inevitable closure.


    Are you saying non viable clubs should be kept open artificially?


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  • #31
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,128 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    ShivasIrons wrote: »
    Are you saying non viable clubs should be kept open artificially?

    Can you point out where I said that?


  • #32
    Rikand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,421 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    I hate when people answer a question with another question. My wife does that all the time and it drives me insane.

    Just answer his question if that was your implication or not


  • #33
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,128 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Rikand wrote: »
    I hate when people answer a question with another question. My wife does that all the time and it drives me insane.

    Just answer his question if that was your implication or not

    I think you're in the wrong thread for marriage guidance!!


  • #34
    Rackstar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭Rackstar


    Rikand wrote: »
    I hate when people answer a question with another question. My wife does that all the time and it drives me insane.

    Just answer his question if that was your implication or not

    Maybe you could get your wife to read the post and paraphrase it for you? That is if she’s not already driving you insane and you are not hating her.


  • #35
    silver2020
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭silver2020


    charlieIRL wrote: »
    Read that AIB Sold the loan to a Vulture fund, that makes my blood boil. We had to bail these guys out and this is how they repay us?

    Sorry to all involved in DS, shame to see any course closing.

    Members should be cheering that a fund has bought it.

    This utter sh1te that the scum media get people worked up about "vulture" funds, is exactly that. Utter sh1te.

    Banks will NEVER do a deal on debt unless forced by a court after a long expensive legal process.

    Funds buy blocks of loan and want to flip them at a profit as soon as possible - they don't go to court, they don't chase you for life, they simply get as good a deal as possible, hopefully make a profit and write off the residual.


    Weather over the past few weeks has meant probably zero green fees.


    No option but to close and hope a deal can be done that will either have a members based club or new owners without massive debt hanging over them.

    Personally, i think this is a good day - temporarily bad news, but long term excellent.

    I've recently moved back from the UK and living in Kildare and will be watching if a members buyout opportunity becomes available (I'll join it as I payed it once and loved it)


  • #36
    Kingswood Rover
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Kingswood Rover


    "Scum Media" sorry similar to the lad on top of the double docker and his honest assertion on tracker mortgage's, i do not know what "scum media" is please enlighten me.


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  • #37
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    There are clubs out there taking out loans to survive until the end of the year until membership renewal is due.

    I would expect that the vast majority of member clubs operate this way, albeit via an overdraft facility


  • #38
    Rikand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,421 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    I had a weak moment last night and I'd like to bail out right now :)


  • #39
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Delvin Castle also closed end of 2018 I think and Woodlands a few years back


  • #40
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Off the top of my head, the following have closed:
    Glencullen
    Glen of the Downs
    Killin Park
    Frankfield
    Glenmalure
    Navan
    Knockanally
    Hollystown
    Turvey

    South County reopened as Lisheen Spriings
    Rathsallagh subsequently sold and reopened.
    downthemiddle wrote: »
    Vartry Lakes
    Dublin City
    Hazel Grove
    Bodenstown
    Woodlands
    slave1 wrote: »
    Delvin Castle also closed end of 2018 I think and Woodlands a few years back
    Woodlands already listed, so that makes 16 that have closed permanently. At least as far as I can make out, they're permanent closures. It's not horrendous if that's the total. I'm not including Dunmurry Springs since we don't know yet if it will be re-opened.


  • #41
    Rikand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,421 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    Wasnt there a woodford golf club in south galway too. Doesnt seem to be there anymore or no mention that I can find. Down passed curra west


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  • #42
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Rikand wrote: »
    Wasnt there a woodford golf club in south galway too. Doesnt seem to be there anymore or no mention that I can find. Down passed curra west
    Assuming you're not talking about Curra West, I can't find any mention of another golf club around there. Even a forum search turns up nothing.


  • #43
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,333 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Woodlands already listed, so that makes 16 that have closed permanently. At least as far as I can make out, they're permanent closures. It's not horrendous if that's the total. I'm not including Dunmurry Springs since we don't know yet if it will be re-opened.

    Could only be the tip of the iceberg.

    That's a bit dramatic but there's plenty of trouble coming down the line. We're still "overpopulated" with courses (compared to pre-boom figures) and the average age of golfers is at a worrying level and rising... the next 5-10 years will see a significant drop off in club members (due to old age and death unfortunately, and trends are that they're not going to be replaced in significant numbers).

    I wouldn't be surprised to see at least another 16 courses close in the next 2-3 years. Hopefully not, but the warning signs have been there for some time.


  • #44
    SeanF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 147 ✭✭SeanF


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Off the top of my head, the following have closed:
    Glencullen
    Glen of the Downs
    Killin Park
    Frankfield
    Glenmalure
    Navan
    Knockanally
    Hollystown
    Turvey

    South County reopened as Lisheen Spriings
    Rathsallagh subsequently sold and reopened.
    Hollystown looks pretty open to me:
    http://www.hollystown.com/index.htm
    https://www.facebook.com/Hollystown/


  • #45
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    PARlance wrote: »
    Could only be the tip of the iceberg.

    That's a bit dramatic but there's plenty of trouble coming down the line. We're still "overpopulated" with courses (compared to pre-boom figures) and the average age of golfers is at a worrying level and rising... the next 5-10 years will see a significant drop off in club members (due to old age and death unfortunately, and trends are that they're not going to be replaced in significant numbers).

    I wouldn't be surprised to see at least another 16 courses close in the next 2-3 years. Hopefully not, but the warning signs have been there for some time.
    By my count (from www.gogolfing.ie there are 388 golf clubs of which 88 are in Northern Ireland. So 300 spread around the 26 counties, averaging about 11 each. Some counties have surprisingly few, Limerick for example having only six, Cork has 30 and Dublin has 51 plus I suspect a lot of North/West Wicklow and East Kildare could be added in there too. I suspect that it's those highly populated areas that may have trouble in the future.


  • #46
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    SeanF wrote: »
    Hollystown looks pretty open to me:
    http://www.hollystown.com/index.htm
    https://www.facebook.com/Hollystown/
    It's supposed to be closing at the end of the year: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=111391168


  • #47
    MillField
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 635 ✭✭✭MillField


    Am I right in saying that Dunmurry Springs featured on At Your Service on RTE a few years back? Shame to see it close.


  • #48
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    MillField wrote: »
    Am I right in saying that Dunmurry Springs featured on At Your Service on RTE a few years back? Shame to see it close.
    Just over a year ago in fact.
    Simon Holohan's family build a golf course on their farming land a decade ago. Now they need to increase revenues, but securing more planning permission is just one obstacle they face.


  • #49
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    By my count (from www.gogolfing.ie) there are 388 golf clubs of which 88 are in Northern Ireland. So 300 spread around the 26 counties, averaging about 11 each. Some counties have surprisingly few, Limerick for example having only six, Cork has 30 and Dublin has 51 plus I suspect a lot of North/West Wicklow and East Kildare could be added in there too. I suspect that it's those highly populated areas that may have trouble in the future.

    County Longford is the only 18hole course in County Longford!!!


  • #50
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    slave1 wrote: »
    County Longford is the only 18hole course in County Longford!!!
    Yeah. Even little Leitrim has twice that. :eek:


  • #51
    brick tamland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭brick tamland


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    According to reports the same vulture fund has bought the loans for Seapoint and two other courses in Leinster. I'm sure there are some very nervous members having heard that news about their club. It's never nice to hear of clubs in trouble.

    I imagine the land Seapoint is on, is much more valuable as a golf course than anything else. It wouldn’t be in anyone’s interest to close it down. Its different from Dunmurry springs in that way.


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