Why buses will never work in Dublin

Chivito550 · 14-11-2019 9:17am #1

It doesn't matter how good the plan for Busconnects is, there is a simple flaw at rush hour. That is having the bus driver as a sort of bouncer who's permission you need to access the bus.

The design of the buses is terrible. The standing room downstairs is a bottleneck. Idiots stand at the door, and more often than not the bus driver is too lazy to force people to move right back to let others on.

Example on 67x this morning. Bus driver told people at a particular stop that there was no more room. I had to shout over to him that there was loads of room, so people then move back and about 7-8 people get on at that stop, and another couple at the next stop. That's about 10 people who would have been left outside for no reason.

What a pathetic transport system. We need buses with doors at middle and back.

Culchie_85 · 14-11-2019 9:55am

That's a people problem not a bus problem.

If people don't have the common sense/decency to move down in a bus then its their own fault not the bus drivers. The bus driver doesn't have time to also be designating spaces on a bus.

I use the red line Luas to travel to and from work sometimes during peak rush hour times, don't underestimate people's stupidity or lack of respect. They wander around the Luas with backpacks on, their bikes, standing blocking way more space than they should. People are idiots.

LeinsterDub · 14-11-2019 9:58am

So you say it will never work and then offer a perfectly valid solution?

While multiple doors are clearly part of the solution. Replacing the wayfarer machines and introducing the 90 minute fare will go a long way

RobbingBandit · 14-11-2019 10:08am

They should have done bus hubs in the city centre Parnell Street Mountjoy Square Merrion Square amongst others that's the final destination for North and South bound buses say the 40 instead of going cross city the 40N goes finglas to Parnell Square the 40S goes Parnell Square to Clondalkin but no more bus doing the entire route split the fleet and split the route.

Markcheese · 14-11-2019 10:34am

I think you've given the soloution to the problem, let bus drivers drive... Same as the luas, more doors, (and consequently better stops), if sticking with double deckers have most of the seating upstairs, and have downstairs more open (again like Luas),
The bus is an implement... How it's used that's up to the Nta,

Chivito550 · 14-11-2019 11:00am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So you say it will never work and then offer a perfectly valid solution?

While multiple doors are clearly part of the solution. Replacing the wayfarer machines and introducing the 90 minute fare will go a long way

Correction: why the current bus types we have in stock will never work.

fionnsci · 14-11-2019 11:43am

I think we need an advertising campaign to encourage people to use the middle doors. People go out of their way to use the front doors, I think they think the middle doors are just an optional extra.

There's the occasional announcement on board asking people to use the middle doors but I think it should be permanently written somewhere on each deck: "Exit through rear doors to facilitate faster boarding and faster journeys".

If each of these people was just explained the rationale behind the middle doors then they'd probably change. They need to be bombarded with the message.

murphaph · 14-11-2019 12:19pm

Many bus operators have a one way turnstile at the front door to reinforce that it is only for boarding.

Dardania · 14-11-2019 12:21pm

murphaph wrote: »

Many bus operators have a one way turnstile at the front door to reinforce that it is only for boarding.

was just going to say that - I've seen that abroad. Along with good signage for it.

And some town in Norway has introduced a button to say thank you to the driver at the middle door

LXFlyer · 14-11-2019 2:23pm

Realistically, until the remaining single door buses are retired, it’s going to be tricky to force people to use the centre doors exclusively for exiting as they will still gravitate towards the front out of habit.

There are still nearly 300 single door buses in the active fleet which will take a while to eliminate.

Having said that, I can’t remember the last time that I was on a DB bus where the driver didn’t open the centre doors at a stop when equipped with them - operationally it’s becoming the norm to open them.

As someone else pointed out this is a people problem rather than a bus problem - the amount of people who have no spacial awareness is frankly appalling.

LXFlyer · 14-11-2019 2:26pm

RobbingBandit wrote: »

They should have done bus hubs in the city centre Parnell Street Mountjoy Square Merrion Square amongst others that's the final destination for North and South bound buses say the 40 instead of going cross city the 40N goes finglas to Parnell Square the 40S goes Parnell Square to Clondalkin but no more bus doing the entire route split the fleet and split the route.

That just creates massive bus termini in the city centre which is something that people have campaigned against for years, and frankly is totally inefficient in terms of operations as well.

Chivito550 · 14-11-2019 3:07pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Realistically, until the remaining single door buses are retired, it’s going to be tricky to force people to use the centre doors exclusively for exiting as they will still gravitate towards the front out of habit.

There are still nearly 300 single door buses in the active fleet which will take a while to eliminate.

Having said that, I can’t remember the last time that I was on a DB bus where the driver didn’t open the centre doors at a stop when equipped with them - operationally it’s becoming the norm to open them.

As someone else pointed out this is a people problem rather than a bus problem - the amount of people who have no spacial awareness is frankly appalling.

If we had buses with front, middle and back doors, not dissimilar to trams, the people problem goes away. Our current buses facilitate the people problem.

LXFlyer · 14-11-2019 3:12pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

If we had buses with front, middle and back doors, not dissimilar to trams, the people problem goes away. Our current buses facilitate the people problem.

There aren’t any standard length two axle double deck models on the market that offer that.

You’re into tri-axles, articulated vehicles or hugely expensive vanity projects such as the Borismaster if that’s what you want. All of those cost more.

I genuinely think that once the single door buses do finally go that the problem will diminish.

Markcheese · 14-11-2019 3:15pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

If we had buses with front, middle and back doors, not dissimilar to trams, the people problem goes away. Our current buses facilitate the people problem.

You need decent bus stops for that to work quickly, appropriate Curb height, and barriers ( or something) to allow the bus to pull right in to the Curb without the driver having to worry about someone trying to jump in the way,

bk · 14-11-2019 3:24pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

As someone else pointed out this is a people problem rather than a bus problem - the amount of people who have no spacial awareness is frankly appalling.

No, it is definitely a design problem.

I cringe when I read comments like this, it makes me realise people have no understanding of good design, UX and how human psychology plays a major part in system design.

You can't expect people who have been trained to use the front door to enter and exit for decades to suddenly change over night. You have to lead them to the outcome you want.

As others above said, use one way turnstiles or flappy doors at the front.

Or even better, move to the Luas/Polish model of 3/4 doors and enter/exit through any doors. People will figure out that much faster.

As you say though, there are 300 more single door buses that need to be replaced. However they should all be gone in about 3 years. It is then when I say that they will push for more passenger education, but really it should be by design. It is obvious that they are working to this direction.

bk · 14-11-2019 3:26pm

Markcheese wrote: »

You need decent bus stops for that to work quickly, appropriate Curb height, and barriers ( or something) to allow the bus to pull right in to the Curb without the driver having to worry about someone trying to jump in the way,

LOL you've clearly never been on 3 door buses in Poland! There often is no bus stop at all. They just stop at crossroads and step straight out into a field.

tom1ie · 14-11-2019 3:35pm

Busses will never work in Dublin without the full implementation of the bus connects infrastructure upgrades (building qbc’s, ticket integration, etc) happening a.s.a.p.
Unfortunately this won’t happen due to interference from know it all politicians who know nothing about transport.
Furthermore bc doesn’t go far enough as the orbital routes need to have qbc’s built on them also, see my posts on kilinniny road in firhouse.

Del2005 · 14-11-2019 3:43pm

bk wrote: »

No, it is definitely a design problem.

I cringe when I read comments like this, it makes me realise people have no understanding of good design, UX and how human psychology plays a major part in system design.

You can't expect people who have been trained to use the front door to enter and exit for decades to suddenly change over night. You have to lead them to the outcome you want.

As others above said, use one way turnstiles or flappy doors at the front.

Or even better, move to the Luas/Polish model of 3/4 doors and enter/exit through any doors. People will figure out that much faster.

Yet people still stand at the multiple doors of the Luas and leave loads of space between the seats. So it doesn't work on multiple door vehicles it's the buses fault for having one door.

People don't even leave space for people to exit the Luas after 15 years, I don't think that they will figure out the bus doors.

donvito99 · 14-11-2019 6:21pm

How will Bus Connects "never work" based on people not moving down a bus...

D.L.R. · 14-11-2019 9:06pm

Boarding at the front and exiting in the middle is a pretty simple concept even Dublin Bus could manage.

donvito99 · 14-11-2019 9:17pm

But for inadequate stop placement/design, a door to the rear as seen on the new Routemasters in London enticing people to move down the bus might work in Dublin.

Last Stop · 15-11-2019 8:59am

While I’m not sure I entirely agree with the general statement that “buses will never work in Dublin”, I believe that they should not be relied on as the main form of PT and only form for large areas of the city.
Buses have a number of major disadvantages which makes then unsuitable at transporting large numbers of people at peak times:
1) single point of entry and on board ticketing
2) capacity
3) irregular stopping pattern
All of the above means that a high frequency service tends to be unreliable and bunching is common.
Buses can and do function well at lower frequencies where they supplement the core transport network. This is what Dublin should be seeking to do rather than maintaining the status quo of 70% PT by bus

machaseh · 15-11-2019 9:14am

Last Stop wrote: »

While I’m not sure I entirely agree with the general statement that “buses will never work in Dublin”, I believe that they should not be relied on as the main form of PT and only form for large areas of the city.
Buses have a number of major disadvantages which makes then unsuitable at transporting large numbers of people at peak times:
1) single point of entry and on board ticketing

You can get rid of the single point of entry by making more points of entry.
You can simplify ticketing by allowing only leap cards (or contactless bank cards / apple pay) to be used on the machines to enter the bus, and have only a 90 minute fare, no more different tariffs based on the amount of stops.

2) capacity

Of course buses have a limited capacity. More core bus corridors should be turned into LUAS lines (broombridge - blanch, broombridge - IKEA, city - rathfarnham, city - clongriffin) . But the capacity of buses can also be increased, by for example using articulated buses.

3) irregular stopping pattern

I'm not sure what you mean with this. That the bus skips stops when nobody wants to get on or off there? That's in fact one of the biggest advantages of the bus. In the Netherlands, even city trams do this, especially late at night they are often able to skip multiple stops.

I believe more could be done in terms of express buses that can use highways or other major national roads to speed up parts of the journey. For example, why no bus from Blanch to the Airport via the M50?

Dexpat · 15-11-2019 2:24pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Boarding at the front and exiting in the middle is a pretty simple concept even Dublin Bus could manage.

You would think, but part of the problem seems to be some of the drivers preference or training, rather the passengers. I always try to get out of the centre doors and usually they open. However I've often been left waiting when the driver doesn't bother despite seeing me and others. I then have to push against the tide of people getting on to get out the front door.

I wonder if drivers are told to always open the middle doors if safe, or if it's up to each driver to decide. Some obviously don't like it.

Carawaystick · 16-11-2019 7:20pm

One design issue with some of the newer busses is that the stairs isn't facing the middle door, so people coming down have to go back through the bus instead of straight out.

JohnC. · 16-11-2019 8:05pm

With Wright gone wrong, I suppose future buses could be a different design anyway.

thomasj · 16-11-2019 9:07pm

JohnC. wrote:

With Wright gone wrong, I suppose future buses could be a different design anyway.

Wrights are back up and running although under a different name now.

LXFlyer · 17-11-2019 12:30pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

One design issue with some of the newer busses is that the stairs isn't facing the middle door, so people coming down have to go back through the bus instead of straight out.

I suspect that is more of a safety issue.

LXFlyer · 17-11-2019 12:58pm

bk wrote: »

No, it is definitely a design problem.

I cringe when I read comments like this, it makes me realise people have no understanding of good design, UX and how human psychology plays a major part in system design.

You can't expect people who have been trained to use the front door to enter and exit for decades to suddenly change over night. You have to lead them to the outcome you want.

As others above said, use one way turnstiles or flappy doors at the front.

Or even better, move to the Luas/Polish model of 3/4 doors and enter/exit through any doors. People will figure out that much faster.

As you say though, there are 300 more single door buses that need to be replaced. However they should all be gone in about 3 years. It is then when I say that they will push for more passenger education, but really it should be by design. It is obvious that they are working to this direction.

Sorry I should have been more specific - I was referring to any of the buses bought in the past number of years which are all dual door which I don't think are a bad design per se.

You are right in that people have been conditioned from the almost exclusive use of the front door to exit the bus.

Until the approximately 300 single door buses are eliminated then that will still be a problem, as people will still migrate towards the front door out of habit.

Having said that, there are a significant number of people who, for whatever reason, are either oblivious to their surroundings or are just ignorant to their fellow passengers (similar to those who sit in the outside seat leaving the inside one empty). People not moving back along the bus, especially on the route in question in the OP (67X) where the majority of people boarding in Celbridge are going to the City Centre, where the use of front door isn't going to be critical, are I would suggest members of this category.

Regarding modifications, given that the front door is where the wheelchair ramp is located, turnstiles or flaps are not practical.

Also, I am not aware of any standard length double deck bus that has three doors - it would mean all vehicles being longer or tri-axles - that's going to have a cost implication. I personally do think that some of the MAN tri-axles design operating in Berlin would be worth buying for certain high volume routes but that does not appear to be current NTA thinking.

I do firmly believe that the removal of the single door buses will result in a change in behaviour but it will take time.

But the notion that "buses will never work" as the OP suggests is really stretching things a bit.

Last Stop · 17-11-2019 2:00pm

machaseh wrote: »

You can get rid of the single point of entry by making more points of entry.
You can simplify ticketing by allowing only leap cards (or contactless bank cards / apple pay) to be used on the machines to enter the bus, and have only a 90 minute fare, no more different tariffs based on the amount of stops.

On board ticketing requires a single point of entry. Other than that why would anyone pay? Agree you can simply ticketing but even with multiple validators, there is still a pinch point at the entrance. That’s not going to change.

Of course buses have a limited capacity. More core bus corridors should be turned into LUAS lines (broombridge - blanch, broombridge - IKEA, city - rathfarnham, city - clongriffin) . But the capacity of buses can also be increased, by for example using articulated buses.

You’re pretty much agreeing with what I’m saying.
Articulated buses are not part of the current plan. They were planned under BRT but that has been binned.

I'm not sure what you mean with this. That the bus skips stops when nobody wants to get on or off there? That's in fact one of the biggest advantages of the bus. In the Netherlands, even city trams do this, especially late at night they are often able to skip multiple stops.

At off-peak times you’re correct it is an advantage. At peak times however it’s a major disadvantage. It makes journey times unreliable and makes it difficult for the bus to pic, up any real speed.

I believe more could be done in terms of express buses that can use highways or other major national roads to speed up parts of the journey. For example, why no bus from Blanch to the Airport via the M50?

I completely disagree with this. The M50 (for example) is already congested as is without adding more vehicles to it. Motorways are not the place for buses with people standing on them. I know it’s been done before and is currently but it’s dangerous. A bus could run from Blanch to the airport via other roads however. Personally I’d run it from Liffey Valley with a new PT bridge where the Metro West one was proposed

Sam Russell · 17-11-2019 8:30pm

Perhaps the solution to ticketing on the buses would be to reintroduce the bus conductor at peak times so passengers get on and have their tickets validated on journey.

Another approach would be to remove the seats on the lower deck as they do, for example, in Nice. Journeys might be shorter, but a shorter single decker carries as many passengers as our double-deckers.

Why buses will never work in Dublin

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