Why buses will never work in Dublin

Last Stop

Sam Russell wrote: »

Perhaps the solution to ticketing on the buses would be to reintroduce the bus conductor at peak times so passengers get on and have their tickets validated on journey.

What tickets? People pay for the bus on board.
If you’re instead suggesting that the conductor acts as a ticket salesperson, it simply won’t work, there’s too many people to manage within the confined spears of the bus. Add in the need for 1,000 of them at peak times and the fact they take up space that could be used by a paying customer, it’s a recipe for disaster.
They don’t check Luas tickets during peak times for the same reasons. However with Luas, tickets are bought before boarding.

Another approach would be to remove the seats on the lower deck as they do, for example, in Nice. Journeys might be shorter, but a shorter single decker carries as many passengers as our double-deckers.

The way Dublin buses are laid out, you wouldn’t be able to lose many seats (most are located over the wheel arches). Plus during off peak, they are used by elederly or frail people who mightn’t be able to get upstairs.

CatInABox

Sam Russell wrote: »

Perhaps the solution to ticketing on the buses would be to reintroduce the bus conductor at peak times so passengers get on and have their tickets validated on journey.

Another approach would be to remove the seats on the lower deck as they do, for example, in Nice. Journeys might be shorter, but a shorter single decker carries as many passengers as our double-deckers.

I guess we'll see how the single decker buses for the O route get on, as they'll be majority standing.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Perhaps the solution to ticketing on the buses would be to reintroduce the bus conductor at peak times so passengers get on and have their tickets validated on journey.

Another approach would be to remove the seats on the lower deck as they do, for example, in Nice. Journeys might be shorter, but a shorter single decker carries as many passengers as our double-deckers.

Sam to be honest I really have to say that neither of these are realistic.

Ticketing is going to be simplified in 2021 to two fares when BusConnects network redesign starts to be implemented, so that the vast majority of people won’t be going near the driver any more. Only those requiring the short fare will need to do so (equivalent to 1-3 stages in distance).

Employing conductors is a complete non-starter on cost grounds alone, before you even think of the practicalities as outlined in a post above.

Removing any more seats on the double decks really isn’t an option either - they have been reduced as one can go practically at this point. There has to be some level of seating provided for older people and others for whom going upstairs isn’t really an option.

LXFlyer

CatInABox wrote: »

I guess we'll see how the single decker buses for the O route get on, as they'll be majority standing.

I can’t imagine that they’re not going to have less seats than downstairs on a double deck has at present though - there’s a large number of customers along both circular roads for whom seating would be seen as a requirement.

Carawaystick

Last Stop wrote: »

I completely disagree with this. The M50 (for example) is already congested as is without adding more vehicles to it. Motorways are not the place for buses with people standing on them. I know it’s been done before and is currently but it’s dangerous. A bus could run from Blanch to the airport via other roads however. Personally I’d run it from Liffey Valley with a new PT bridge where the Metro West one was proposed

Have you evidence of the danger?

33x, 41x, 32x have been using the M50 and M1 for years. the 33N sometimes uses the M50 and M1

A lot of the congestion on the M50 is because there is no public transport alternative to allow people make the journeys they make.

The new public transport bridge (with bike and pedestrian space) across the liffey is definitely a good idea.

machaseh

Carawaystick wrote: »

Have you evidence of the danger?

33x, 41x, 32x have been using the M50 and M1 for years. the 33N sometimes uses the M50 and M1

A lot of the congestion on the M50 is because there is no public transport alternative to allow people make the journeys they make.

The new public transport bridge (with bike and pedestrian space) across the liffey is definitely a good idea.

Indeed, many buses not only in Dublin but all over the world use portions of motorways every single day. There is absolutely no issue with it.

wakka12

Why dont bus services just make ticket machines at their stops like luas stations anyway? And then just scan the ticket like the leapcard when you get on, would save a lot of time.Can be waiting a solid two minutes at busy stops with old people getting their change ready. Would only be a few seconds if you had people scanning tickets and leap cards at two doors

LXFlyer

wakka12 wrote: »

Why dont bus services just make ticket machines at their stops like luas stations anyway? And then just scan the ticket like the leapcard when you get on, would save a lot of time.Can be waiting a solid two minutes at busy stops with old people getting their change ready. Would only be a few seconds if you had people scanning tickets and leap cards at two doors

There are over 7,000 bus stops in Dublin alone - that might explain why.

riddlinrussell

wakka12 wrote: »

Why dont bus services just make ticket machines at their stops like luas stations anyway? And then just scan the ticket like the leapcard when you get on, would save a lot of time.Can be waiting a solid two minutes at busy stops with old people getting their change ready. Would only be a few seconds if you had people scanning tickets and leap cards at two doors

The way a lot of European cities do this is you can buy a ticket in convenience shops (Its already possible to do this with leap top ups) basically you move payment to an abstracted location so you don't end up with any payment dwell issues, drivers don't handle ticketing at all. Not sure how expensive 'validatable' printed tickets would be but if you have random, regular, spot checks with ticket enforcement then you could minimise loss.

Alternatively free public transport for all but that's probably a ways down the line.....

machaseh

wakka12 wrote: »

Why dont bus services just make ticket machines at their stops like luas stations anyway? And then just scan the ticket like the leapcard when you get on, would save a lot of time.Can be waiting a solid two minutes at busy stops with old people getting their change ready. Would only be a few seconds if you had people scanning tickets and leap cards at two doors

Having such infrastructure and each and every bus stop is exceedingly expensive, and in real life this is done only on BRT-like super frequency systems.

For example in Rio de Janeiro there are BRT bus lines which are completely closed off from normal traffic, every bus 'stop' has the infrastructure of what a Dart station here would have; manned ticketing, ticketing machines, electronic signs. Each station is separate from the outside world by ticket barriers.

This works because there is an unimaginable ammount of buses driving on the bus lane all the time, but it would never work for on-street buses like we have in Dublin.

And indeed there are normal buses too but they have a conductor on the bus who sells you your tickets (something which we might have had in the 50s or so but with current wage levels its just not feasible anymore in a western country like Ireland).

donvito99

DB estimate that 20% of delays is related to embarking/disembarking pax. If you figured our another way to levy a fare i.e. make it free, it'd be an immediate improvement in the actual service offered. Actual capacity would then be the problem.

machaseh

donvito99 wrote: »

DB estimate that 20% of delays is related to embarking/disembarking pax. If you figured our another way to levy a fare i.e. make it free, it'd be an immediate improvement in the actual service offered. Actual capacity would then be the problem.

Making all PT free would be gas but let's be realistic here. The system as it exists currently can already not cater for the enormous demand on many routes (think especially 38/39 series to Blanch or the green Luas line for example). What is going to happen if you make it 100% free?

It would be better to just allow only leap card payments. Advertise the leap card all over dublin so that tourists quickly discover that they are going to need a leap card to use the bus. Make the leap cards themselves cheaper or almost free (like 1 euro or so instead of what is it now? 5 euros?) and available literally everywhere. Put signs all over the buses saying 'NO LEAP CARD NO ENTRY'. That would make it much better.

donvito99

machaseh wrote: »

Making all PT free would be gas but let's be realistic here. The system as it exists currently can already not cater for the enormous demand on many routes (think especially 38/39 series to Blanch or the green Luas line for example). What is going to happen if you make it 100% free?

It would be better to just allow only leap card payments. Advertise the leap card all over dublin so that tourists quickly discover that they are going to need a leap card to use the bus. Make the leap cards themselves cheaper or almost free (like 1 euro or so instead of what is it now? 5 euros?) and available literally everywhere. Put signs all over the buses saying 'NO LEAP CARD NO ENTRY'. That would make it much better.

But you still have to validate the leap card i.e. holding the card at the reader for 2 - 3 seconds - and this is where a flat fare is assumed and their is no haggling with the driver. It's slow.

Dardania

donvito99 wrote: »

But you still have to validate the leap card i.e. holding the card at the reader for 2 - 3 seconds - and this is where a flat fare is assumed and their is no haggling with the driver. It's slow.

I was at a talk last week in Engineers Ireland by NTA, and they acknowledge the delay with reading cards as an issue. Problem is their solution is multiple years away

SmokeyTheBull

Having moved to Dublin last year I just want to say that buses in Dublin do work, in fact they're great most of the time. There'd be complete chaos if the buses up here were as bad as they are in Limerick. I've used them a ton while up here, and yes there are issues, but it's pretty decent service.

I think the one thing that you could do tomorrow that would instantly and markedly improve the service is to ban private vehicles from the bus lanes, specifically taxis. This would have to be followed up by rigorous enforcement of this and existing rules, which is another significant issue. I don't know how many times I've seen cabs come across unbroken white lines into bus lanes just to get 10 meters ahead. Walk around Dublin city center between 8 and 10 am and you will see delivery trucks and vans, g4s security cash vans, even garda cars, all parked in bus lanes. And people wonder why there's issues.

Also, some of the placement of stops outside the city center boggles the mind. I lived 10+ minutes from my stop before and I know that that distance actually kinda sucked but I can't fathom why some stops up here are so close together. There's no reason to have a stop less than 3 minute walk from another.

Dardania

SmokeyTheBull wrote: »

Having moved to Dublin last year I just want to say that buses in Dublin do work, in fact they're great most of the time. There'd be complete chaos if the buses up here were as bad as they are in Limerick. I've used them a ton while up here, and yes there are issues, but it's pretty decent service.

I think the one thing that you could do tomorrow that would instantly and markedly improve the service is to ban private vehicles from the bus lanes, specifically taxis. This would have to be followed up by rigorous enforcement of this and existing rules, which is another significant issue. I don't know how many times I've seen cabs come across unbroken white lines into bus lanes just to get 10 meters ahead. Walk around Dublin city center between 8 and 10 am and you will see delivery trucks and vans, g4s security cash vans, even garda cars, all parked in bus lanes. And people wonder why there's issues.

Also, some of the placement of stops outside the city center boggles the mind. I lived 10+ minutes from my stop before and I know that that distance actually kinda sucked but I can't fathom why some stops up here are so close together. There's no reason to have a stop less than 3 minute walk from another.

Very fair observations. On the last one, its covered in the bus connects report that the stops should be at least 400m apart. Would help for sure.
The enforcement of bus lanes is a big issue indeed.

bk

SmokeyTheBull wrote: »

Having moved to Dublin last year I just want to say that buses in Dublin do work, in fact they're great most of the time. There'd be complete chaos if the buses up here were as bad as they are in Limerick. I've used them a ton while up here, and yes there are issues, but it's pretty decent service.

Yes, moving from Cork to Dublin almost 20 years ago, it was like night and day. DB was so much better then Cork, it wasn't even funny. However that was more a reflection on how poor the bus services are in the likes of Cork, Limerick, etc. then Dublin really being good.

Having travelled around Europe, you quickly realise that the bus service in Dublin is pretty mediocre for a mid sized European capital city.

And what is most annoying about it, is not that Dublin needs way more buses or drivers (though extra is always welcome), it is more a case of implementing more effective practices that make better use of the resources we already have and have been common in Europe for decades.

As you say, bus lane enforcement would make a big difference.

But also improvements to ticketing (flat fare, eliminate cash, zero driver interaction, new faster ticket machines, conactless payments, etc.) would make a big difference IMO.

Having said all that, I have seen big improvements in Dublin bus services over the past 20 years and in particular over the past 3 years or so.

- Fleet of all lower floor buses. And the buses feel much nicer, cleaner and more modern from the passengers perspective.
- Buses seem more reliable, you rarely see the breakdowns of the past.
- Leap card, far from perfect, but still much better then the cash of the past.
- Better bus stops, shelters and info
- RTPI and the various apps and travel planners.
- Most buses being dual door and seemingly actually being used now.
- The road widening at the Cat & Cage made a big improvement in bus journey times. Which makes me excited for what the BusConnects infrastructure project can bring to the rest of the country.


And in the past few months:
- Great improvements in off peak and weekend frequency
- 24/7 bus routes about to start

Of course there is still loads more to do. But it does feel like we are starting to move towards a decent modern bus service. It all is just taking frustratingly too long to do.

lawred2

Culchie_85 wrote: »

That's a people problem not a bus problem.

If people don't have the common sense/decency to move down in a bus then its their own fault not the bus drivers. The bus driver doesn't have time to also be designating spaces on a bus.

I use the red line Luas to travel to and from work sometimes during peak rush hour times, don't underestimate people's stupidity or lack of respect. They wander around the Luas with backpacks on, their bikes, standing blocking way more space than they should. People are idiots.

It's both.

lawred2

machaseh wrote: »

Making all PT free would be gas but let's be realistic here. The system as it exists currently can already not cater for the enormous demand on many routes (think especially 38/39 series to Blanch or the green Luas line for example). What is going to happen if you make it 100% free?

It would be better to just allow only leap card payments. Advertise the leap card all over dublin so that tourists quickly discover that they are going to need a leap card to use the bus. Make the leap cards themselves cheaper or almost free (like 1 euro or so instead of what is it now? 5 euros?) and available literally everywhere. Put signs all over the buses saying 'NO LEAP CARD NO ENTRY'. That would make it much better.

Dump the leap card except for being a carrier of weekly, monthly or annual tickets.

Use capped contactless for everything else.

Why should a tourist get a leap card for a day or two in Dublin? Ridiculous waste.

wakka12

bk wrote: »

Yes, moving from Cork to Dublin almost 20 years ago, it was like night and day. DB was so much better then Cork, it wasn't even funny. However that was more a reflection on how poor the bus services are in the likes of Cork, Limerick, etc. then Dublin really being good.

Having travelled around Europe, you quickly realise that the bus service in Dublin is pretty mediocre for a mid sized European capital city.

And what is most annoying about it, is not that Dublin needs way more buses or drivers (though extra is always welcome), it is more a case of implementing more effective practices that make better use of the resources we already have and have been common in Europe for decades.

As you say, bus lane enforcement would make a big difference.

But also improvements to ticketing (flat fare, eliminate cash, zero driver interaction, new faster ticket machines, conactless payments, etc.) would make a big difference IMO.

Having said all that, I have seen big improvements in Dublin bus services over the past 20 years and in particular over the past 3 years or so.

- Fleet of all lower floor buses. And the buses feel much nicer, cleaner and more modern from the passengers perspective.
- Buses seem more reliable, you rarely see the breakdowns of the past.
- Leap card, far from perfect, but still much better then the cash of the past.
- Better bus stops, shelters and info
- RTPI and the various apps and travel planners.
- Most buses being dual door and seemingly actually being used now.
- The road widening at the Cat & Cage made a big improvement in bus journey times. Which makes me excited for what the BusConnects infrastructure project can bring to the rest of the country.


And in the past few months:
- Great improvements in off peak and weekend frequency
- 24/7 bus routes about to start

Of course there is still loads more to do. But it does feel like we are starting to move towards a decent modern bus service. It all is just taking frustratingly too long to do.

And the digital timetables! Really handy

Lord Glentoran

Dardania wrote: »

I was at a talk last week in Engineers Ireland by NTA, and they acknowledge the delay with reading cards as an issue. Problem is their solution is multiple years away

Redesigning the wheel takes time.

Muahahaha

In fairness they could educate the public into using the middle doors pretty easily by using the same recorded announcements that they do for not smoking on board. Just run the announcements on the buses that do have middle doors and you'd see people change their habits reasonably quickly.

punisher5112

Dealing with the public is soul destroying....

bk

Muahahaha wrote: »

In fairness they could educate the public into using the middle doors pretty easily by using the same recorded announcements that they do for not smoking on board. Just run the announcements on the buses that do have middle doors and you'd see people change their habits reasonably quickly.

They already have those announcements asking people to "please use the rear door". No one takes any notice of those announcements, you completely tune them out or you just wear headphones.

Stronger steps will need to be taken IMO once all buses have dual door.

machaseh

Muahahaha wrote: »

In fairness they could educate the public into using the middle doors pretty easily by using the same recorded announcements that they do for not smoking on board. Just run the announcements on the buses that do have middle doors and you'd see people change their habits reasonably quickly.

Or just put flappy doors so that you can literally only enter through the front door and not exit through it. Bus driver can have a button to open the flappy doors in case a wheel chair user needs to get out.

tom1ie

bk wrote: »

They already have those announcements asking people to "please use the rear door". No one takes any notice of those announcements, you completely tune them out or you just wear headphones.

Stronger steps will need to be taken IMO once all buses have dual door.

Bouncers! :pac: