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New Build TV Distribution Spec

  • 06-11-2019 10:51PM
    #1
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭


    Hi all,

    I am building a new house and thought I would post what I plan for the TV distribution as it may help others and some may have thoughts on it.

    First the requirements in order of priority
    1) 3 TV Points (Sitting room, living area off kitchen and bedroom
    2) All 3 points to have access to view all UK/Irish free TV channels
    3) Ability to record up to two channel simultaneously at one of the TV points
    4) Ability to play recordings from any TV point
    5) EPG available at recording TV point
    6) RTE/BBC iPlayer/4OD/ITV player on at least one TV Point
    7) Potential to expand to use IP TV distribution in the future (I think this will overtake satellite/terrestrial distribution soon)
    8) Gaming - Something that can run old Roms - SNES/GameCube/N64 etc.

    Here is the equipment I already have and plan on using:
    1) Samsung TV UE40ES6800 - 2012 TV with Satellite (FreeSat) and Terrestrial (Saorview) tuners.
    2) LG 32" LG610B - 2018 TV with Satellite (FreeSat) and Terrestrial (Saorview) tuners

    And now the spec:
    1) 2 Coaxial and 2 Network cables wired from each TV point back to a central AV centre.
    2) 1 satellite dish pointed at 28.2E for UK free channels. The dish will have a Unicable II LNB with single wire to AV centre
    3) 1 Aerial to get Irish Saorview channels with single coax to AV centre
    4) Unicable II splitter which will split the satellite feed to each of the 3 TV points
    5) Terrestrial splitter to split the Aerial feed to each TV point.
    6) Gigablue UHD 4k Quad 4K for sitting room fed by single Unicable and single terrestrial coax. Also network cable - This is a high end Enigma 2 box. It has FBC tuners that when combined with Unicable II can perform many simultaneous recordings (up to 8 I think) on a single Unicable feed. It will also be able to server up all recordings over the network via DLNA.
    7) Sitting room TV to be purchased later fed directly by single Unicable and single terrestrial coax. Also network cable - Thinking large good TV panel. No need for smart functions as Gigablue will take care of everything required
    8) Surround sound speakers in sitting room to be purchased later.
    9) Living Room TV to be fed directly by single Unicable and single terrestrial coax
    10) Nvidia Shield 2019 for living room to cover gaming and smart apps there.
    11) Bedroom TV to be fed directly by single Unicable and single terrestrial coax. Also network cable
    12) Sound bars for Living room and bedroom TVs to be purchased later

    Rationale
    1) Unicable II LNBs seem to offer everything a normal universal LNB offers with the additional function of splitting feeds. It also offers multiple satellite feeds on a single cable
    2) The Gigablue is similar to the VU+ Ultimo 4k box but much cheaper. Support seems about the same. As it is an Enigma 2 box it offers the possibility of many additional features, particularly offering streams over the home network (see minisatip). It is also powerful enough to play TV while offer recordings to other TV clients over DLNA.
    3) The Nvidia Shield will offer sufficient gaming for my needs plus will likely run any TV streaming app I need well. It can also run Plex Server.:cool::cool:


«1

Comments

  • #2
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Sounds like you have it well planned! The only potential issue I see is and I'm not even sure on this, but can many (any) current TVs accept a Unicable connection?


  • #3
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭dubrov


    Good point navi.
    It's hard to find specs on any TV to see if they are Unicable compatible.
    My understanding that it is very likely that any TV manufactured in the last 3 years is Unicable compatible.
    So I'd say the LG is ok but the Samsung probably isn''t.

    It looks like you can get Unicable LNBs with legacy outputs. Example here.
    I guess I could use that with the legacy outputs being fed directly to my current TVs.

    The problem is that LNBs with legacy outputs seems to only be available for Unicable as opposed to Unicable II. The main difference between Unicable and Unicable II seems to be Unicable is limited to 4 feeds while Unicable II can handle 24+.

    So a Unicable with legacy outputs might still be fine for me but I guess I'll have to do a bit more reading :(


  • #4
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Here is Samsung's take on it. Seemingly only the very latest (expensive) 2019 R series support Unicable ll. Unicable l support seems to be there since 2011 to my surprise. It's in German so I used Chrome to translate.

    https://www.samsung.com/de/support/tv-audio-video/unicable-anlage-an-smart-tv-oder-blu-ray-player-anschliessen/


  • #5
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭dubrov


    Well if Samsung have only started including Unicable II, I'll have to rule that out.

    I checked the Samsung TV last night and can't find any reference to Unicable in the menu.
    I managed to find some German reference to Unicable for the UE40ES6800 but it looks like you need to change the TV to use German firmware using an engineering menu. I'd be pretty sure that it would then lose the FreeSat feature.

    I'd still like to get the Gigablue as it has a number of other features I'd like.
    It would be a shame not to use the FBC tuner though.

    I'm edging towards a Unicable 1 LNB with 2 legacy outputs. The single Unicable coax would go to the Gigablue and provide 4 satellite feeds which should be plenty. The legacy coaxes would go direct to the two other TVs.


  • #6
    jspuds
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭jspuds


    Instead of the Gigablue would you consider something like these?

    https://vboxcomm.com/android-tv-gateway/

    or

    https://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/

    Interested in opinions as I'm looking to get rid of Sky Q with two multi room boxes connected.
    Was thinking of something like this and running everything through Nvidia Shields. They should both connect with Plex and then record to a NAS.


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  • #7
    pizzahead77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,498 ✭✭✭pizzahead77


    jspuds wrote: »
    Instead of the Gigablue would you consider something like these?

    https://vboxcomm.com/android-tv-gateway/

    or

    https://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/

    Interested in opinions as I'm looking to get rid of Sky Q with two multi room boxes connected.
    Was thinking of something like this and running everything through Nvidia Shields. They should both connect with Plex and then record to a NAS.

    The HDHomeRun only supports terrestrial TV.

    I find it works great for it and at last Plex have finally fixed their EPG for Saorview - RTE2+1 had been missing for months.


  • #8
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭dubrov


    The VBox has only one tuner.
    I also wouldn't trust and Android box to deliver a smooth satellite TV experience.
    Enigma2 has been around for years and is tried and tested.

    I had considered distribution of TV over IP but would need additional clients.
    Most of them seem pretty flaky unless you want to use Kodi.
    The Forumuler Z8 seems to be the best software wise but is pricey for what you get.


  • #9
    jspuds
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭jspuds


    Looks like the vbox are quad tuners but get your point on Enigma v Android TV?


  • #10
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    I'd add high quality hdmi or fibre optic hdmi to the TV points, you want something that can send 4k hdmi. I'd also have HDMI return for audio to an av receiver.

    What Ethernet cable are you running, use high quality HDSET Cat 6 or better maybe cat 7. You want something that will carry power over ethernet

    It is much cheaper to install cable now that later, double up on it. Two Ethernet points in each room add a few around the house.

    Think about putting in wireless AP's or mesh network now and have a phone cable or BB cable to the outside. Is Virgin medai and SIRO in the are. Make provison for them now. The idea is you setup your own network including wireless. Then to switch you just unplug one and plug in the the other.
    Try to have a conduite from the AV cupboard to the outside and to each TV so you can run more cables when ever you want.

    I'd run 4 RG6 cables from where ever the Sat goes to av cupboard, you could use a unicable LNB but if it's not a good as you think or in the futre new tech comes along you are good you've got the cable.

    Thinks about sat to IP too


  • #11
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭dubrov


    jspuds wrote: »
    Looks like the vbox are quad tuners but get your point on Enigma v Android TV?

    Yeah sorry. I don't know why I had one in my head. No terrestrial tuner though and although I rarely watch RTE/Virgin I'd still like them available and not to have to rely on the crappy Player apps.


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  • #12
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭dubrov


    spaceHopper wrote: »
    I'd add high quality hdmi or fibre optic hdmi to the TV points, you want something that can send 4k hdmi. I'd also have HDMI return for audio to an av receiver.

    What Ethernet cable are you running, use high quality HDSET Cat 6 or better maybe cat 7. You want something that will carry power over ethernet

    It is much cheaper to install cable now that later, double up on it. Two Ethernet points in each room add a few around the house.

    Think about putting in wireless AP's or mesh network now and have a phone cable or BB cable to the outside. Is Virgin medai and SIRO in the are. Make provison for them now. The idea is you setup your own network including wireless. Then to switch you just unplug one and plug in the the other.
    Try to have a conduite from the AV cupboard to the outside and to each TV so you can run more cables when ever you want.

    I'd run 4 RG6 cables from where ever the Sat goes to av cupboard, you could use a unicable LNB but if it's not a good as you think or in the futre new tech comes along you are good you've got the cable.

    Thinks about sat to IP too

    What's the rationale for the 4k HDMI cables?
    I actually do have 2 HDMI cables in the spec running from the AV centre to the living room TV only. I added them in as I will also have CCTV and may want to view it on the living room TV. IT also adds the option to move the Gigablue box out to the AV centre and control it with a Logictech Harmony hub or similar.

    There are a few network points fed via CAt6 (2 to each TV point for redundancy) around the house so easy to add Wifi at a later stage. A Wifi mesh would be ggod but I am more likely to add a single Wifi access point upstairs in the short term due to budget onstraints.

    Virgin is best option available and the router will sit in the AV centre. I am not sure when to engage Virgin in the build though.

    I had thought about putting in 3 RG6 to each TV point but I figure it will soon be a dead technology anyway. If I use Unicable to the Gigablue and one legacy feed to each of the other TV points, I will have one spare cable for redundancy.

    I had actually considered going all SAT>IP but figured it seems a little too new. I also figure there would be some additional lag as the incoming satellite signal is encoded for distribution over IP. A split second channel change can become a one second channel change easily. I believe the Gigablue can serve up content over their app anyway. There is also an Enigma2 addon called minisatip which might run on it but I'd guess it is a bit flaky.


  • #13
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    I would love to be in the situation of a completely new build so I could plan things properly.

    Having said that I would not touch the system described.

    In my ideal there would be one central media press where the coax from the Saorview aerial and the Unicable LNB would terminate, and in that press I would have sufficient tuners for my use throughout the house.

    I bought a Vbox and having tried it for a couple of days returned it again.
    It had too many limitations for my liking.
    For Sat tuners I use a Digibox R1 Quad and a Quad tuner HDhomerun for the Saorview channels. I also had a Sky box feeding a HDMI to DVB converter which went into the HDHomerun also.

    All of those tuners are managed by Tvheadend, running on a €40 Android box adapted to run a JEOS Linux.
    Included in the press in a central storage PC for all recordings and other media.

    All rooms to have wired ethernet ..... cat6 .... with all runs using double cable to twin faceplates.
    The larger rooms to have maybe three such double runs.
    Just make sure the ethernet sockets are close to power sockets.

    Distribute the TV/Media data over the LAN (could even have that LAN separated from general one) and at each viewing point (TVs not needed, not any tuners or storage) have a small device capable of running Kodi or similar, to select the media required for viewing/recording and show it on the TV/Monitor.
    Anyone with a laptop, phone or such can also access all functions just by running the required software, provided of course that a wifi Tx is added in the media press (maybe a router?).

    7 day EPG on all tvchannels of course and all sorts of recording management etc.

    One of the less noticed future benefits is that the 'Display' in the room can be changed from one location to another without any great hassle, as the family's needs and preferences change, and room usage changes.

    Negatives: You have to be prepared to put in some work as there is nothing on the market that will do this 'out of box'.
    You will end up with multiple devices, but as opposed to that they will all be in one media press so will be easy manage.

    No matter where you extend your ethernet or wifi to ...... garage, outside office or whatever ..... all the TV/Media from the storage will be available there also along with internet access.

    If doing this some years into the future I would probably go for fibre LAN rather than Cat6, but presently that is not really consumer friendly yet, IMO.

    Also, for wired security cameras bring the ethernet cable back to the media press and integrate them into the whole system. This is quite easily done too without using any proprietary, costly, management systems.

    The great thing about all of the above is that the software is Libre and free of cost, and the hardware to run it on is small and cheap, except for the storage PC (which can be used to run the software to manage the security cameras.

    Yes, if I could only start again ....... and get a much cleaner result rather than ripping out stuff to try to facilitate wire runs that were never envisaged when the house was built in 1979/1980. :)


  • #14
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭dubrov


    I had considered distribution over the LAN but I just don't think it is ready yet. TVs are in general not compatible and those that do have a poor offering.
    I could add a small box to each TV point running something like KODI but it would have to be something cheap. I think the result would be much poorer than an expensive dedicated SAT box (the Gigablue) or even a TV's own hardware.
    THere is nothing precluding me easily adding this in at later stage anyway. My understanding is that the Gigablue has serves up all the same functions over the network anyway via an Android app or browser. I think there is even an m3u file so any IPTV client would work.

    The CCTV is using Power over Ethernet (POE) cables all wired back to the AV centre. I had considered running my own server or using a good NAS but it was going to work out way more expensive. I ended up going for this . It won't have loads of functionality but should cover the basics alright. The Gigablue also has a HDMI in so I could link it to that.


  • #15
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    dubrov wrote: »
    I had considered distribution over the LAN but I just don't think it is ready yet. TVs are in general not compatible and those that do have a poor offering.

    What do you think is not ready yet?
    I could add a small box to each TV point running something like KODI but it would have to be something cheap. I think the result would be much poorer than an expensive dedicated SAT box (the Gigablue) or even a TV's own hardware.

    What makes you think this is correct?
    Just the cost?
    THere is nothing precluding me easily adding this in at later stage anyway. My understanding is that the Gigablue has serves up all the same functions over the network anyway via an Android app or browser. I think there is even an m3u file so any IPTV client would work.

    If you see no reason for HDMI cables, then with proper LAN cabling there is also no need for Coax cabling and tuners at each viewing point, automatically limiting the viewing point to where those Coax cables terminate.

    You appear to have a bit of a contradiction in thinking ..... but that is probably due to your thinking something is not yet ready for such a system as moving TV data across the Cat6 LAN.
    The CCTV is using Power over Ethernet (POE) cables all wired back to the AV centre. I had considered running my own server or using a good NAS but it was going to work out way more expensive. I ended up going for this . It won't have loads of functionality but should cover the basics alright. The Gigablue also has a HDMI in so I could link it to that.

    That seems to be a reasonable price ..... are the cameras good?
    What is their max fps?
    Thanks.

    I have been distributing live TV and stored media on the LAN for several years now. I did a retro fit in parts and tested with 6 clients displaying 1080 TV and all good. Normally only 4 would be used at one time, plus at times a friend in foreign parts wishing to watch some content not available to them.
    My client boxes are all in the €40/€60 range, and most can do 4K.

    One thing that strikes me now ...... if you record something on one box, where will it save it? Will you have a central storage device so you can watch that content from any of the devices?

    What ever system you decide to go for, I wish you well with it.

    ;)


  • #16
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭dubrov


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    What do you think is not ready yet?

    What makes you think this is correct?
    Just the cost?

    There aren't that many services (legit ones anyway) offering decent IPTV yet. Most TV devices also don't support it out of the box and I don't really want to hang a device off the bedroom TV. There are a few smart apps but the functionality is very limited.

    I think IPTV will take over but I am not sure if SAT>IP will.
    Sat to IP makes sense to me if only a LAN is available for distribution. There is some overhead converting SAT signals which adds to the latency. Any videos I have seen show a lag of over 3 seconds between selecting a channel and it loading. Maybe you have a better experience?


    If you see no reason for HDMI cables, then with proper LAN cabling there is also no need for Coax cabling and tuners at each viewing point, automatically limiting the viewing point to where those Coax cables terminate.

    You appear to have a bit of a contradiction in thinking ..... but that is probably due to your thinking something is not yet ready for such a system as moving TV data across the Cat6 LAN.

    I considered LAN cabling only but that would limit the use of my current TVs. I know I could add client devices to handle this would add clutter and cost.
    In the short term, Coax will be used for TV and LAN for internet. I don't see where HDMI cables would fit in short or long term.

    That seems to be a reasonable price ..... are the cameras good?
    What is their max fps?
    Thanks.

    I actually bought it on AliExpress for 175 Euro. Delivery only took one week as well.

    It isn't setup yet so can't offer an opinion on quality yet.
    Specs have:
    Coding Capacity :4*5MP (6fps,2560*1920)
    Decoding Capacity :1*5MP(6fps,2560*1920)


    I have been distributing live TV and stored media on the LAN for several years now. I did a retro fit in parts and tested with 6 clients displaying 1080 TV and all good. Normally only 4 would be used at one time, plus at times a friend in foreign parts wishing to watch some content not available to them.
    My client boxes are all in the €40/€60 range, and most can do 4K.

    I haven't completely rules out going the the LAN route.
    Is there any IP client box you would recommend?
    One thing that strikes me now ...... if you record something on one box, where will it save it? Will you have a central storage device so you can watch that content from any of the devices?

    Enigma2 is very configurable. I could store it on the Gigablue HDD or on a cheap MyCloud NAS I have. Either would be available to all devices on the network. The Gigablue app offers transcoding as well and can be made available over the internet.
    What ever system you decide to go for, I wish you well with it.
    ;)

    Thanks. I'm sure I'll be looking at something else about 10 seconds after it is all installed and working :)


  • #17
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    I rarely use IPTV delivered over the internet, so cannot really comment on it.
    I did trial Netflix (free month's trial) and had that integrated. I did not really have use for it, as I watch TV for short periods mostly and can always find something to distract me for the time.

    I use a quad tuner Digibit R1 fed with one coax from Unicable II LNB, and a quad DVB-T tuner HDHomerun device.
    (If I were to need more tuners then I just get another tuner box and connect it to the switch. Allow tvheadend to use the tuners and they are immediately available to clients.)
    Both their outputs are fed to the wee TV server box running tvheadend which manages the channels, EPG, recordings etc etc. and feeds the demanded channel to the client device.
    That tv server box is a €30 Android box running Coreelec, and is the backend for all the clients. It hardly breaks a sweat!

    The client devices are similar ... Android boxes running LibreElec or CoreElec and connected to display with HDMI cable.
    Most can do 4K if required.
    I have had no problems with test 4K liveTV channels, except the client boxes need to give it to the TV in 1080 ...... so the backend has no problem providing it. It is all data, just a bit more of it for 4K :)

    The switching times for channels will vary a little depending on the tuner box used and the amount of data to be received before it can start displaying. So I expect the 4K channels to take less than a half second more than the usual channels.
    I also believe that the HDHomerun is a little slower to change than the Digibit.

    Neither are an annoyance, changing channels in about 1.5 secs.
    I have had slower STBs :)

    The server backend and the client boxes are all about 4" square, so very easily manage. Much more so that a full STB with tuners and coax cables attached, at the TV location.

    I have settled on Kodi for all the clients, as well as laptops/tablets/phones, but m3u files are also available if that was the desired method.

    I don't think there is much else really ...... else I would seem to be trying to sell it to you :D

    I guess there is no harm whatsoever in fitting coax from each room back to the media press, where they could be joined to whatever coax is coming in from outside ..... maybe splitters on Unicable or multiple coaxes from a multi output standard LNB.
    For me the waste was the cost of decent STBs at fixed locations in each room.
    Now I can use whatever I wish .... I often have a TV window while sitting at my PC, using Kodi. :)

    Enough said :D


  • #18
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    dubrov wrote: »
    What's the rationale for the 4k HDMI cables?
    I actually do have 2 HDMI cables in the spec running from the AV centre to the living room TV only. I added them in as I will also have CCTV and may want to view it on the living room TV. IT also adds the option to move the Gigablue box out to the AV centre and control it with a Logictech Harmony hub or similar.

    There are a few network points fed via CAt6 (2 to each TV point for redundancy) around the house so easy to add Wifi at a later stage. A Wifi mesh would be ggod but I am more likely to add a single Wifi access point upstairs in the short term due to budget onstraints.

    Virgin is best option available and the router will sit in the AV centre. I am not sure when to engage Virgin in the build though.

    I had thought about putting in 3 RG6 to each TV point but I figure it will soon be a dead technology anyway. If I use Unicable to the Gigablue and one legacy feed to each of the other TV points, I will have one spare cable for redundancy.

    I had actually considered going all SAT>IP but figured it seems a little too new. I also figure there would be some additional lag as the incoming satellite signal is encoded for distribution over IP. A split second channel change can become a one second channel change easily. I believe the Gigablue can serve up content over their app anyway. There is also an Enigma2 addon called minisatip which might run on it but I'd guess it is a bit flaky.


    We didn't put in HDMI, I went for Cat 6 and Coax, I regert it, I shouls have upspeced the cat 6 cable and added HDMI. A HDMI matrix is 1/4 the price of a good HDBSET matirx, you can put in the best hdmi calbe an still be miles ahead. Also some TV's will feed the remote control signals back directly over HDMI so everything can be in the av press.

    We ran 5 coax from the attic to the av press. The Virgin Media guy was very sound (maybe I got a good one and he ran two of their cable into the attic and connected to them, one for TV and one for BB. I've sicne got rid of TV as it's just to expesive, but still have their BB. I'm using fre sat and saoir view instead. I've two free cables left them the attic, about to use one for sat in another room so I'll be down to 1 more.

    Every thing is going IP an soon 1G will be slow if I were you I'd price better cable it's the same price to install it in the long run you will be better off.

    We didn't get an AV consultant which our architect warned us about she was right that's my main regert. If you are in dublin and want one PM and I'll send you a number


  • #19
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Cat6 should do 10Gb/s up to 55m which seems sufficient for most homes. With higher category cable you start to run into shielded cable which is more difficult to install.


  • #20
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭dubrov


    spaceHopper wrote: »
    We didn't put in HDMI, I went for Cat 6 and Coax, I regert it, I shouls have upspeced the cat 6 cable and added HDMI. A HDMI matrix is 1/4 the price of a good HDBSET matirx, you can put in the best hdmi calbe an still be miles ahead. Also some TV's will feed the remote control signals back directly over HDMI so everything can be in the av press.

    We ran 5 coax from the attic to the av press. The Virgin Media guy was very sound (maybe I got a good one and he ran two of their cable into the attic and connected to them, one for TV and one for BB. I've sicne got rid of TV as it's just to expesive, but still have their BB. I'm using fre sat and saoir view instead. I've two free cables left them the attic, about to use one for sat in another room so I'll be down to 1 more.

    Every thing is going IP an soon 1G will be slow if I were you I'd price better cable it's the same price to install it in the long run you will be better off.

    We didn't get an AV consultant which our architect warned us about she was right that's my main regert. If you are in dublin and want one PM and I'll send you a number

    Thanks spacehopper.
    What's the main use case for running HDMI cable?
    Is it just to allow storage of the set top boxes in the AV press?
    If it is, I think it would bring a whole new host of issues in relation to communication.

    I know you mentioned some devices can send IR signals over HDMI but that probably means buying new TVs for me. Also, that may cover IR but what about devices that use Bluetooth (Nvidia Shield, Horizon etc.).
    In my opinion, it is just not worth it.

    As navi says, Cat6 can handle 10Gb/s. What would you need more for in a domestic setting?
    By the time more than 10GB/s is needed, there will probably be a whole different standard for cabling needed anyway.

    Also ,what is 1G?


  • #21
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    spaceHopper wrote: »
    We didn't put in HDMI, I went for Cat 6 and Coax, I regert it, I shouls have upspeced the cat 6 cable and added HDMI.

    It would be interesting to know what you were sending on the Cat 6 cable that you regret doing it?

    A HDMI matrix is 1/4 the price of a good HDBSET matirx, you can put in the best hdmi calbe an still be miles ahead. Also some TV's will feed the remote control signals back directly over HDMI so everything can be in the av press.

    We ran 5 coax from the attic to the av press. The Virgin Media guy was very sound (maybe I got a good one and he ran two of their cable into the attic and connected to them, one for TV and one for BB. I've sicne got rid of TV as it's just to expesive, but still have their BB. I'm using fre sat and saoir view instead. I've two free cables left them the attic, about to use one for sat in another room so I'll be down to 1 more.

    Every thing is going IP an soon 1G will be slow if I were you I'd price better cable it's the same price to install it in the long run you will be better off.

    Why will 1Gb/s be slow soon?
    How many 5Mb/s to 20Mb/s streams do you wish to accomodate?
    We didn't get an AV consultant which our architect warned us about she was right that's my main regert. If you are in dublin and want one PM and I'll send you a number


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  • #22
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,917 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    i cant take the credit for this but our new build came with an av cabinet in the utility room (id have preferred the attic but hey ho), there is coax and cat 6 to every room in the house. What i have ended up doing is buying a hdanywhere 4k hdmi matrix and all of my devices are in the utility, skyq, atv and anything else you would want, connected to the matrix, it sends it out over cat 6 and there is a little receiver box with each tv and can send IR back etc.

    works pretty well once you figure it all out.

    zehd0Ed.jpg


  • #23
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Is that a HDBaseT matrix? I looked into them before but they seemed very expensive. Nice setup though.


  • #24
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,917 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Laney Eager Yo-yo wrote: »
    Is that a HDBaseT matrix? I looked into them before but they seemed very expensive. Nice setup though.

    yes it is, sorry should have explained that.

    i got a really good deal on one on av forums, but yes they are pricey.


  • #25
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Cyrus wrote: »
    i cant take the credit for this but our new build came with an av cabinet in the utility room (id have preferred the attic but hey ho), there is coax and cat 6 to every room in the house. What i have ended up doing is buying a hdanywhere 4k hdmi matrix and all of my devices are in the utility, skyq, atv and anything else you would want, connected to the matrix, it sends it out over cat 6 and there is a little receiver box with each tv and can send IR back etc.

    works pretty well once you figure it all out.

    [IMG]http s://i.imgur.com/zehd0Ed.jpg[/IMG]

    HDMI over ethernet is quite heavy, data-wise, I believe. (~6.5Gb/s for 1080p IIRC)
    So using a matrix, Cat7 would be required directly from source to destination, for each 'tuner/device' to each 'display'.

    Compared to a Sat>IP type set up,

    the costs are reduced hugely, as no matrix is required
    there is no requirement for Cat7, nor for direct cabling through matrix
    Cat5e can handle multiple streams
    an existing LAN can be used.

    For most home use Sat>IP is much the better option it seems to me.


  • #26
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,917 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    HDMI over ethernet is quite heavy, data-wise, I believe. (~6.5Gb/s for 1080p IIRC)
    So using a matrix, Cat7 would be required directly from source to destination, for each 'tuner/device' to each 'display'.

    Compared to a Sat>IP type set up,

    the costs are reduced hugely, as no matrix is required
    there is no requirement for Cat7, nor for direct cabling through matrix
    Cat5e can handle multiple streams
    an existing LAN can be used.

    For most home use Sat>IP is much the better option it seems to me.

    im not sure if i am answering a different thing or if HDBASET is different than HDMI over ethernet? but i can send 4k material via the matrix without issue.


  • #27
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,917 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    I would love to be in the situation of a completely new build so I could plan things properly.

    Having said that I would not touch the system described.

    In my ideal there would be one central media press where the coax from the Saorview aerial and the Unicable LNB would terminate, and in that press I would have sufficient tuners for my use throughout the house.

    I bought a Vbox and having tried it for a couple of days returned it again.
    It had too many limitations for my liking.
    For Sat tuners I use a Digibox R1 Quad and a Quad tuner HDhomerun for the Saorview channels. I also had a Sky box feeding a HDMI to DVB converter which went into the HDHomerun also.

    All of those tuners are managed by Tvheadend, running on a €40 Android box adapted to run a JEOS Linux.
    Included in the press in a central storage PC for all recordings and other media.

    All rooms to have wired ethernet ..... cat6 .... with all runs using double cable to twin faceplates.
    The larger rooms to have maybe three such double runs.
    Just make sure the ethernet sockets are close to power sockets.

    Distribute the TV/Media data over the LAN (could even have that LAN separated from general one) and at each viewing point (TVs not needed, not any tuners or storage) have a small device capable of running Kodi or similar, to select the media required for viewing/recording and show it on the TV/Monitor.
    Anyone with a laptop, phone or such can also access all functions just by running the required software, provided of course that a wifi Tx is added in the media press (maybe a router?).

    7 day EPG on all tvchannels of course and all sorts of recording management etc.

    One of the less noticed future benefits is that the 'Display' in the room can be changed from one location to another without any great hassle, as the family's needs and preferences change, and room usage changes.

    Negatives: You have to be prepared to put in some work as there is nothing on the market that will do this 'out of box'.
    You will end up with multiple devices, but as opposed to that they will all be in one media press so will be easy manage.

    No matter where you extend your ethernet or wifi to ...... garage, outside office or whatever ..... all the TV/Media from the storage will be available there also along with internet access.

    If doing this some years into the future I would probably go for fibre LAN rather than Cat6, but presently that is not really consumer friendly yet, IMO.

    Also, for wired security cameras bring the ethernet cable back to the media press and integrate them into the whole system. This is quite easily done too without using any proprietary, costly, management systems.

    The great thing about all of the above is that the software is Libre and free of cost, and the hardware to run it on is small and cheap, except for the storage PC (which can be used to run the software to manage the security cameras.

    Yes, if I could only start again ....... and get a much cleaner result rather than ripping out stuff to try to facilitate wire runs that were never envisaged when the house was built in 1979/1980. :)

    this looks interesting John,

    what level of expertise would you say is required to get all this going?


  • #28
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Cyrus wrote: »
    im not sure if i am answering a different thing or if HDBASET is different than HDMI over ethernet? but i can send 4k material via the matrix without issue.

    HDBaseT doesn't require Cat7 cabling as you can see from your own installation. Cat6 cable is recommended. It is different to IP over Ethernet. It is a different technology.


  • #29
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Sorry, but I am not a little confused.

    Cat6 is guaranteed to 1Gb/s and HDMI is 6.5Gb/s?

    Cat6a is 10Gb/s as is Cat7 so would be required?


    EDIT:
    On reading some more it appears that the signals through the matrix are 'compressed' or otherwise 'treated' so that Cat6 has sufficient bandwidth?


  • #30
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Cyrus wrote: »
    this looks interesting John,

    what level of expertise would you say is required to get all this going?

    It is difficult for me to gauge.
    I used cheap devices, re-purposed for this, by changing the OS running on the Android boxes to one which is suited for my purpose.
    All the rest is near plug and play, except for setting up the software TV channel bouquets and any IP streaming software/plugins required.
    Adding a storage device to the LAN sorts out that as all the devices can access it.

    So essentially it is
    Unicable LNB + Saorview aerial to
    Digibit quad DVB-S tuner + Quad HDHomerun DVB-T tuner
    Both of those to the Switch
    Android box to the switch running tvheadend to manage tuners
    LAN to Switch
    Client Android boxes with change of OS to LAN and HDMI out to display

    So to me once all that is known, it is rather simple.
    The OS I use mostly is CoreELEC and LibreELEC as an alternative.
    They are ultra lightweight so the cheaper Android boxes work quite well.
    It is a matter of getting a supported box, burning the OS to an SD card, and booting with the SD card.

    Having written that it seems very simple TBH .... but I would not know how to rate it for others.

    It is not 'plug and play' like most would expect a single device to be.
    I regard it more like using audio separate devices (tuner, amp, cassette player, record player, CD player and joining them up) as opposed to buying an 'all-in-one' audio single device.

    I have no idea if that has answered your question or not :D

    This thread explains my journey, failings and successes
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057826211
    and this shows how I have things connected ...
    htpc-system.png


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  • #31
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Sorry, but I am not a little confused.

    Cat6 is guaranteed to 1Gb/s and HDMI is 6.5Gb/s?

    Cat6a is 10Gb/s as is Cat7 so would be required?

    It not using IP. It's a different technology.
    Is HDBaseT based on IP packets? Is HDBaseT Ethernet?

    No. Although HDBaseT uses coding technology and uses the physical medium used by IP, it is not IP. HDBaseT uses T-packets, a different packetization protocol. HDBaseT uses the same coding technology as Ethernet and even has an Ethernet channel, but its packet-based technology is different from the traditional Ethernet packets.

    from

    https://installers.hdbaset.org/faqs-our-frequently-asked-questions-for-the-whats-wheres-and-whys-of-hdbaset-installations-coming-soon/

    Also Cat6 will do traditional IP at 10Gb/s up to 55m


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