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Charging for picking up a dog

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    #92
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Dav010 wrote: »
    You are getting a bit emotional there, calm down.

    Charging for a service provided is not extortion, any more than a dog warden reclaim charge is extortion The dog was loose and handed in to a shelter who boarded and cared for it, overnight. Why should his service be free? You might argue that the owner did not enter a contract with the rescue service, but as I think it was Seamus said in an earlier post, a judge may see this as a reasonable charge for the care of a dog which has strayed and which may pose a danger to itself and others.

    Show me the contract before you claim a service exists.


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    #93
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Show me the contract before you claim a service exists.

    Put the dog down on sight appears to be the best solution here.


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    #94
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,849 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    begbysback wrote: »
    I don’t get why people are up in arms about the dog getting out here, op stated they accepted full responsibility, the question is do these guys have a legal right to demand payment for a chipped dog.

    The law states that the dog must have an identification tag on it's collar - you can't expect the average person to have a chip reader. If it had a tag then there would of been no need to rescue it. A phone call would of reunited it with the owner.

    I doubt that they "demanded" a payment. I think they have a right to have their costs reimbursed. They didn't steal the dog. They had no intention to permanently deprive the owner.

    As this is the Legal Forum it might be worth pointing out that, under the Animal Welfare Act it could be argued that the dog had been abandoned & could be viewed as an act of cruelty.


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    #95
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,845 ✭✭✭daheff


    its extortion. You should report it to the local gardai.

    The dog is your fathers property. they have no right to hold the dog pending you making a payment.

    Feel free to name and shame on any and all social media. They should not be allowed get away with this kinda behaviour. For all you know that money went straight into that individuals pocket.


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    #96
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,849 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    daheff wrote: »
    its extortion. You should report it to the local gardai.

    The dog is your fathers property. they have no right to hold the dog pending you making a payment.

    Feel free to name and shame on any and all social media. They should not be allowed get away with this kinda behaviour. For all you know that money went straight into that individuals pocket.

    Yes admit to the Gardai that you committed a criminal offence :rolleyes:

    As I stated earlier, the rescue may be registered as a Pound. If so then they can charge & insist on payment.


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    #97
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    I would have no problem with being asked to pay a reasonable donation to cover the cost of my dog's care if they were picked up off the street, but I would have a problem being told I could not have my dog back until I paid a fee. That is not in the spirit of any dog rescue or charity that I have ever volunteered with. The council pound is different, they are not a charity, and I would expect a fee.

    Having said that, the issue of the dog getting out needs to be addressed once and for all. They can't be allowed to keep getting out. It can happened to anyone once, and some dogs are very clever and can be great escape artists, but once you have one of those (and I had one) extra vigilance is required.


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    #98
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,139 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    After a few 50 euro donations maybe the dog wouldn't be able to get out so much.


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    #99
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,845 ✭✭✭daheff


    Discodog wrote: »
    Yes admit to the Gardai that you committed a criminal offence :rolleyes:

    As I stated earlier, the rescue may be registered as a Pound. If so then they can charge & insist on payment.

    Pretty sure extortion is also a criminal offence.... and a more serious one than an escape artist dog.

    As for whether or not the charity also doubles up as a dog pound, I'm pretty sure they would have to advise the capacity that they are acting in to the Op, who would most likely be telling us this.


    In any case the op states the charity us not connected with the local council, so I would doubt they are also doubling up as a dog pounds


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    #100
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,414 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    A Judge would probably see it as a registered charity cleaning up someone else's mess.

    A public service.

    That the neglectful party responsible didn't think they should have to cover the costs of their carelessness would not go down well.


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    #101
    Always Tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    You said you accept responsibility for the dog getting out, but you won't pay the fee, so how exactly are you taking responsibility? You're not. You literally don't care about keeping the dog in until it hits your wallet, and that's why the owner claim fee is there, it's the only thing careless owners understand.

    You're not one bit grateful for them keeping your dog safe. And if they just collect him, feed him, keep him safe for free, what is going to inspire irresponsible owners to stop letting their dog out, endangering the dog, drivers, etc.?

    Owner claim fees are the norm in shelters around the world. Pay it and secure your dog and maybe thank the shelter for keeping him safe instead of crying foul for something that is your own fault. The dog doesn't 'keep getting out', you're letting him out to roam.


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    #102
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,849 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    daheff wrote: »
    Pretty sure extortion is also a criminal offence.... and a more serious one than an escape artist dog.

    As for whether or not the charity also doubles up as a dog pound, I'm pretty sure they would have to advise the capacity that they are acting in to the Op, who would most likely be telling us this.


    In any case the op states the charity us not connected with the local council, so I would doubt they are also doubling up as a dog pounds

    You really need to look at the law before using such terms.

    Irresponsible dog ownership is a serious problem without added some entitlement to the free rescue of one's dog.

    Galway Council make it very clear:

    Uncontrolled dog = On-the-spot fine! €100!!

    http://www.galway.ie/en/services/more/vet/dogs/


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    #103
    Always Tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    daheff wrote: »
    its extortion. You should report it to the local gardai.

    The dog is your fathers property. they have no right to hold the dog pending you making a payment.

    Feel free to name and shame on any and all social media. They should not be allowed get away with this kinda behaviour. For all you know that money went straight into that individuals pocket.

    Every shelter has owner claim fees. I think if it was illegal it would have been sorted out by now. It's basically treated the same as cars being towed or clamped.

    Yeah, name and shame a shelter that took a lost dog in and kept it safe vs an owner who keeps letting their dog stray. See how that will go.


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    #104
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,849 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Always Tired wrote: »
    Every shelter has owner claim fees. I think if it was illegal it would have been sorted out by now. It's basically treated the same as cars being towed or clamped.

    Yeah, name and shame a shelter that took a lost dog in and kept it safe vs an owner who keeps letting their dog stray. See how that will go.[/QUOTE

    Risky especially if someone calls the local Dog Warden & points out that the dog keeps being out & not under control.


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    #105
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,845 ✭✭✭daheff


    Discodog wrote: »
    You really need to look at the law before using such terms.

    Irresponsible dog ownership is a serious problem without added some entitlement to the free rescue of one's dog.

    Galway Council make it very clear:

    Uncontrolled dog = On-the-spot fine! €100!!

    http://www.galway.ie/en/services/more/vet/dogs/

    try the marginal notes of Section 17 of criminal justice (public order) act 1994. "unwarranted. demand with menaces" is the specific phrase used act with "Blackmail, extortion and demanding money with menaces" in the margins.


    While I dont disagree that the OP should look after his dog(property) better, its illegal to demand money to release the animal unless its the pound or some other authorized person.

    No different to you misplacing your phone /wallet and the finder demanding money to release it to you.


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    #106
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    daheff wrote: »
    .

    No different to you misplacing your phone /wallet and the finder demanding money to release it to you.
    .
    Which plenty of lost property desks for airlines, bars etc do actually do


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    #107
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,849 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    daheff wrote: »
    try the marginal notes of Section 17 of criminal justice (public order) act 1994. "unwarranted. demand with menaces" is the specific phrase used act with "Blackmail, extortion and demanding money with menaces" in the margins.


    While I dont disagree that the OP should look after his dog(property) better, its illegal to demand money to release the animal unless its the pound or some other authorized person.

    No different to you misplacing your phone /wallet and the finder demanding money to release it to you.

    What menaces? Give us €50 or we will keep feeding, exercising & housing your dog. :rolleyes:


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    #108
    Always Tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    daheff wrote: »
    try the marginal notes of Section 17 of criminal justice (public order) act 1994. "unwarranted. demand with menaces" is the specific phrase used act with "Blackmail, extortion and demanding money with menaces" in the margins.


    While I dont disagree that the OP should look after his dog(property) better, its illegal to demand money to release the animal unless its the pound or some other authorized person.

    No different to you misplacing your phone /wallet and the finder demanding money to release it to you.

    So owner claim fees are illegal, but every shelter in the country and other countries has been doing it for donkeys years, can you please explain that, mr. Barrister?

    Do you think it's the first time some useless owner who keeps letting their animals out has tried to challenge the shelters right to an owner claim fee? I've dealt with this issue as a shelter worker over 10 years ago, and the fees are still the norm, so what does that tell you?


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    #109
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,164 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Always Tired wrote: »
    so what does that tell you?

    That businesses should be able to charge a premium when dealing with idiots, your honour.


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    #110
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    Always Tired wrote: »
    Do you think it's the first time some useless owner who keeps letting their animals out has tried to challenge the shelters right to an owner claim fee? I've dealt with this issue as a shelter worker over 10 years ago, and the fees are still the norm, so what does that tell you?

    Has it been established that this is a registered shelter?


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    #111
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    Discodog wrote: »
    What menaces? Give us €50 or we will keep feeding, exercising & housing your dog. :rolleyes:

    Give us €50 or we won't give you back your dog, is quite threatening.

    They only had the dog overnight, so possibly two feeds. Doubt the dog was walked in that time.

    I think some are getting a bit carried away here.


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    #112
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,164 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    AulWan wrote: »
    Has it been established that this is a registered shelter?

    Out of curiosity, where is the Register of Shelters, and what difference does it make to the charging of a fee?

    I found a register of animal welfare orgs that receive state funding, but there is no requirement to have state funding.


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    #113
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,849 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    AulWan wrote: »
    Give us €50 or we won't give you back your dog, is quite threatening.

    They only had the dog overnight, so possibly two feeds. Doubt the dog was walked in that time.

    I think some are getting a bit carried away here.

    I seriously doubt that they said that.


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    #114
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,164 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    AulWan wrote: »
    Give us €50 or we won't give you back your dog, is quite threatening.

    They only had the dog overnight, so possibly two feeds. Doubt the dog was walked in that time.

    I think some are getting a bit carried away here.

    Another poster said all shelters charge a fee, the ones I quickly googled show a wide range of fees, would they advertise this on the interweb if it were illegal?


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    #115
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,463 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    L1011 wrote: »
    .
    Which plenty of lost property desks for airlines, bars etc do actually do

    In the case of airlines and other transport providers you will find that any charge for dealing with lost property is covered in the terms and conditions when you enter into a contract with them ie. purchase a ticket. Therefore any charge is lawful.

    As regards bars I am not sure.
    I have never heard of a bar in Ireland having such charges but I welcome any clarification.


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    #116
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,849 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, where is the Register of Shelters, and what difference does it make to the charging of a fee?

    I found a register of animal welfare orgs that receive state funding, but there is no requirement to have state funding.

    There isn't one afaik. Some rescues work with LA's & act as Pounds. Naturally the LA's welcome & support this.


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    #117
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    L1011 wrote: »
    .
    Which plenty of lost property desks for airlines, bars etc do actually do

    And which usually actually has a lawful contractual basis for a charge to return in terms of airports etc.


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    #118
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,164 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    elperello wrote: »
    In the case of airlines and other transport providers you will find that any charge for dealing with lost property is covered in the terms and conditions when you enter into a contract with them ie. purchase a ticket. Therefore any charge is lawful.

    Isn’t it the airport rather than the airline you bought the ticket from which charges you for luggage storage and reclaim?


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    #119
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    From the OP ...
    adam88 wrote: »
    This charity is in no way connect to the county council and as far as they are concerned have no right to collect dogs and charge for the service.

    I presume the "they" referenced is the local county council who would know if a rescue was a legit one or not

    Dogs do get out or run off sometimes, especially around Halloween, with bangers and fireworks going off. I used to volunteer for a charity and regularly on this week every year we would have loads of lost dogs, or dogs that had run off. It happens. Its not the crime of the century, but demanding 50 euro with a threat of not returning the dog is not right either.


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    #120
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,849 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    GM228 wrote: »
    And which usually actually has a lawful contractual basis for a charge to return.

    I would doubt that most rescues, unless they are Pounds, charge. They ask for a donation & suggest an amount. But they can impose charges for any dog that they "own".

    Any charges here are a direct result of the owner's negligence & failure to comply with the law. If the dog had an id tag it would never of ended up in the rescue.


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    #121
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    adam88 wrote: »
    When asked what would happen had the 50 euro not been paid I was told the dog would not be released.

    Seems fairly clear they did.


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