Off The Ball Official Thread <Mod Note - Post #1, #533, #6651>

generalgerry · 26-10-2019 06:24AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Agree Sheahen was eerily good. Well put together as well to look like them talking to each other.

There was a fine line between doing an impression and mocking his nasal voice, but I think Risteard achieved it! He certainly got his mannerisms as well though.

Have to say that I've warmed a lot more to Sheahan since his Japan trip. He did a great job of capturing the atmosphere with the fans.

26-10-2019 06:51AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Think it's fair to say the OTB show and the people on it know the things which people say about them and aren't overly bothered given the way they're happy to have a light shone on it.

https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1187416461033254912

I'm sure Ger's ego is not too displeased at the idea of him being satired like this as when the comics line you up it often means that you've really made it. But in this case of course, the show is just paying Risteard to come in and make light hearted fun of them.

generalgerry · 27-10-2019 08:41PM

Was there a paper review today lads? I heard that Kimmage had another article today about heaslip, so I was wondering if they discussed it on the show.

Jayesdiem · 28-10-2019 03:23PM

generalgerry wrote: »

Was there a paper review today lads? I heard that Kimmage had another article today about heaslip, so I was wondering if they discussed it on the show.

Heaslip’s demeanour and comments do him no favours in terms of his likeability factor but this relentless attack by Paul Kimmage is a form of bullying on a national platform. Heaslip has made some outrageously far-fetched comments but Kimmage comes across as a paranoid man whose ultimate destination is a straight jacket in a padded cell. Writing doping articles with his feet. Is he really that concerned for the welfare of the players in a sport that he doesn’t even like or respect. To Heaslip I say lay low, shut up and think before you massage your ego with crazy statements. There’s a psychotic man out there that cannot accept that drugs will always play a part in sport and that we, as a fan base are are culpable for this as the users themselves. Kimmage is odious figure.

Tell me how · 28-10-2019 04:42PM

Jayesdiem wrote: »

Heaslip’s demeanour and comments do him no favours in terms of his likeability factor but this relentless attack by Paul Kimmage is a form of bullying on a national platform. Heaslip has made some outrageously far-fetched comments but Kimmage comes across as a paranoid man whose ultimate destination is a straight jacket in a padded cell. Writing doping articles with his feet. Is he really that concerned for the welfare of the players in a sport that he doesn’t even like or respect. To Heaslip I say lay low, shut up and think before you massage your ego with crazy statements. There’s a psychotic man out there that cannot accept that drugs will always play a part in sport and that we, as a fan base are are culpable for this as the users themselves. Kimmage is odious figure.

I admire Kimmage greatly for his stance on doping. If you look behind the scenes at the number of players and athletes who have died or suffered health concerns as a result of doping then you don't even need to think about the 'cheating' element to be concerned.

If we didn't have Kimmage trying to shine a light on this, the fan base would be even less aware and so their ignorance could be seen as tacit approval.

I wish we had more journalists like him who weren't afraid to ask the awkward questions, I had high hopes for McKenna but unfortunately I think he is motivated now by being negative. There's a grain of truth in his stories which need to be considered, but they are completely overwhelmed by rhetoric and a righteous attitude at the moment.

Dog Murphy · 28-10-2019 05:02PM

Tell me how wrote: »

I admire Kimmage greatly for his stance on doping. If you look behind the scenes at the number of players and athletes who have died or suffered health concerns as a result of doping then you don't even need to think about the 'cheating' element to be concerned.

If we didn't have Kimmage trying to shine a light on this, the fan base would be even less aware and so their ignorance could be seen as tacit approval.

I wish we had more journalists like him who weren't afraid to ask the awkward questions, I had high hopes for McKenna but unfortunately I think he is motivated now by being negative. There's a grain of truth in his stories which need to be considered, but they are completely overwhelmed by rhetoric and a righteous attitude at the moment.

Journalists don't have the stomach for going after drugs cheats because it will cost them money and it will cost them job opportunities.There is so much money involved in sport for everyone journalists included that no media company will back a journalist who investigates drug cheats and no journalist will do it because they won't get backed.Sports that actually tried to stop drugs cheats have ruined themselves because of trying to be honest , ignorance is bliss is the better option for business. The war on drugs in sport is essentially dead which is sad because kids getting involved in sport will probably have to make decision about whether to take stuff they shouldn't just to be able to compete.

Tell me how · 28-10-2019 05:09PM

Dog Murphy wrote: »

Journalists don't have the stomach for going after drugs cheats because it will cost them money and it will cost them job opportunities.There is so much money involved in sport for everyone journalists included that no media company will back a journalist who investigates drug cheats and no journalist will do it because they won't get backed.Sports that actually tried to stop drugs cheats have ruined themselves because of trying to be honest , ignorance is bliss is the better option for business. The war on drugs in sport is essentially dead which is sad because kids getting involved in sport will probably have to make decision about whether to take stuff they shouldn't just to be able to compete.

Unfortunately, I cannot argue too much that you are wrong.
There have been stories where kids have been coerced in to taking drugs by their parents which just beggars belief.

Dublin Marathon record was broken yesterday by a drugs cheat.
As science advances, it is hard to see it changing.

cmac2009 · 28-10-2019 05:13PM

Jayesdiem wrote: »

Heaslip’s demeanour and comments do him no favours in terms of his likeability factor but this relentless attack by Paul Kimmage is a form of bullying on a national platform. Heaslip has made some outrageously far-fetched comments but Kimmage comes across as a paranoid man whose ultimate destination is a straight jacket in a padded cell. Writing doping articles with his feet. Is he really that concerned for the welfare of the players in a sport that he doesn’t even like or respect. To Heaslip I say lay low, shut up and think before you massage your ego with crazy statements. There’s a psychotic man out there that cannot accept that drugs will always play a part in sport and that we, as a fan base are are culpable for this as the users themselves. Kimmage is odious figure.

What drivel. He has raised valid questions about events he has discussed freely in his book, which Jamie could clear up quite easily. His lack of a response speaks volumes.

generalgerry · 28-10-2019 07:37PM

I think it's important to remember the context of this though. Kimmage has long had a bee in his bonnet about this "omerta" around the issue of drugs in rugby, and failure of anybody in the IRFU to at least acknowledge that there may be some people who are using performance enhancing drugs. I'm also conscious of the podcast where the incredibly smug Luke Fitzgerald, who seemed to be the self appointed representative of the rugby brethren, hit back at Kimmage and called HIM a drug cheat (for the few times that the used drugs in a few cycling races). So I'd say when Kimmage read Heaslip's book and found out that he had failed a drugs test, he must have thought that all his Christmases had come at once. And whether his motives are professional or personal, it is up to Jamie Heaslip to clear up any ambiguities that remain after his telling of the story.

Have to say, it was hugely naive of Heaslip to include the story in his book and not have all of the answers ready for the questions that would inevitably follow. He knows that Kimmage has had it in for rugby players, and it would have been an absolute certainly that he was going to jump on the story as soon as it was published. He can't just bury his head in the sand and hope that Kimmage will go away, because we all know for sure that he won't.

Jayesdiem · 28-10-2019 10:05PM

Tell me how wrote: »

I admire Kimmage greatly for his stance on doping. If you look behind the scenes at the number of players and athletes who have died or suffered health concerns as a result of doping then you don't even need to think about the 'cheating' element to be concerned.

If we didn't have Kimmage trying to shine a light on this, the fan base would be even less aware and so their ignorance could be seen as tacit approval.

I wish we had more journalists like him who weren't afraid to ask the awkward questions, I had high hopes for McKenna but unfortunately I think he is motivated now by being negative. There's a grain of truth in his stories which need to be considered, but they are completely overwhelmed by rhetoric and a righteous attitude at the moment.

Who has died from doping? I can’t think of a single person and, if I could, how that could be proved. There is no evidence that doping causes death.

Tell me how · 28-10-2019 10:16PM

Jayesdiem wrote: »

Who has died from doping? I can’t think of a single person and, if I could, how that could be proved. There is no evidence that doping causes death.

Doping Deaths

Between 1987, shortly after athletes are believed to have begun using EPO, and 1990, 20 young Belgian and Dutch cyclists died.

One of them was Johannes Draaijer, a 27-year-old racer from the Netherlands who finished 20th in the 1989 Tour de France. In February 1990 he died in his sleep of a heart blockage a few days after completing a race in Italy. An autopsy did not specify the cause of death – he had been passed fit to ride by a doctor – but in a television interview afterwards, his widow said she hoped his fate would serve as a warning to other athletes who take the drug.

Between 1989 and 1992, seven young Swedish orienteering enthusiasts died mysteriously and there was another cluster of cyclist deaths in 2003-4, when eight aged under 35 died.

Jayesdiem · 28-10-2019 10:18PM

generalgerry wrote: »

I think it's important to remember the context of this though. Kimmage has long had a bee in his bonnet about this "omerta" around the issue of drugs in rugby, and failure of anybody in the IRFU to at least acknowledge that there may be some people who are using performance enhancing drugs. I'm also conscious of the podcast where the incredibly smug Luke Fitzgerald, who seemed to be the self appointed representative of the rugby brethren, hit back at Kimmage and called HIM a drug cheat (for the few times that the used drugs in a few cycling races). So I'd say when Kimmage read Heaslip's book and found out that he had failed a drugs test, he must have thought that all his Christmases had come at once. And whether his motives are professional or personal, it is up to Jamie Heaslip to clear up any ambiguities that remain after his telling of the story.

Have to say, it was hugely naive of Heaslip to include the story in his book and not have all of the answers ready for the questions that would inevitably follow. He knows that Kimmage has had it in for rugby players, and it would have been an absolute certainly that he was going to jump on the story as soon as it was published. He can't just bury his head in the sand and hope that Kimmage will go away, because we all know for sure that he won't.

Heaslip has to clear up nothing for nobody. He CAN bury his head in the sand and I would encourage him to do so. Paul Kimmage is not WADA, USADA etc and Heaslip doesn’t have to give him the time of day. Heaslip’s crime is naively stating that rugby is clean. It probably isn’t, but few people care about that. It’s a tumbleweed issue for all but the most pious. Face to face, I’ve never met a single person -not one- who gives a sh1t about any of this. In fact many people get a kick out of guessing who’s on and who’s not. They just want to watch their sport in peace. Players’ bodies are their own and they know the score if they get caught: two to four years on the sideline. What the obnoxious Kimmage has to do with that, I just don’t know......

Jayesdiem · 28-10-2019 10:21PM

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Doping Deaths

Are you serious? Did you read the bit where it said an autopsy did not determine the cause of death? Yet you have concluded that doping was the cause. There are no documented cases of doping related deaths because it can’t and hasn’t been proven. People who died while doping does not count. People who don’t dope die every day for a multitude of reasons.

Jayesdiem · 28-10-2019 10:38PM

Tell me how wrote: »

Doping Deaths

While we are on it, here’s some actual evidence for you, rather than that that came from a agenda-seeking newspaper: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=doping+deaths&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DdDz41Ts6ECMJ

Note in these cases of 24 dead bodybuilders, 23 had taken psychostimulants and had hypertrophied hearts, not unlike those seen in runners, whether dopers or non-dopers. Murder and suicide also accounted for one third of deaths. The causal relationship between suicide and a body builder suffering from body dysmorphia and subsequent suicide is a more plausible line of thinking.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=doping+deaths&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=s4MBw8Rke7kJ

Tell me how · 28-10-2019 10:40PM

Jayesdiem wrote: »

Are you serious? Did you read the bit where it said an autopsy did not determine the cause of death? Yet you have concluded that doping was the cause. There are no documented cases of doping related deaths because it can’t and hasn’t been proven. People who died while doping does not count. People who don’t dope die every day for a multitude of reasons.

Did you read the rest of it? Clusters of deaths amongst groups in which doping had recently become common place.
Have you read any books on doping in cycling including the reports of cyclists wearing heart rate monitors to warn them if their hearts have slowed down too much and then getting on to stationary bikes to raise their heart rate and thin out their blood.

If you want to ignore a link between this practice and deaths associated with cardio failure amongst what should ordinarily be supremely fit athletes, then you do that.

An editorial in a publication relating to Haematology are convinced there is a link.

In endurance sports, such as road cycling, there has been evidence of injury and death from doping.

Beechwoodspark · 28-10-2019 10:42PM

The one thing about kimmage

The man is extremely determined and persistent

Heaslip can’t really just “hope this goes away”

Solicitors letters in post to kimmage next ?

Tell me how · 28-10-2019 10:46PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

The one thing about kimmage

The man is extremely determined and persistent

Heaslip can’t really just “hope this goes away”

Solicitors letters in post to kimmage next ?

In Heaslip's favour is the ABC affiliation with rugby and I expect some comments to Independent management about the risk of alienating those who buy advertising.

Jayesdiem · 28-10-2019 10:58PM

Tell me how wrote: »

Did you read the rest of it? Clusters of deaths amongst groups in which doping had recently become common place.
Have you read any books on doping in cycling including the reports of cyclists wearing heart rate monitors to warn them if their hearts have slowed down too much and then getting on to stationary bikes to raise their heart rate and thin out their blood.

If you want to ignore a link between this practice and deaths associated with cardio failure amongst what should ordinarily be supremely fit athletes, then you do that.

An editorial in a publication relating to Haematology are convinced there is a link.

I had a whole answer written that disappeared with a dropped internet line. The gist: genetics, training and doping all play a role in low blood pressure and heart rate in cyclists. Do drugs have no effect? Almost certainly not. Do they kill people? Not on their own (PEDs that is).

Tell me how · 28-10-2019 11:10PM

Jayesdiem wrote: »

I had a whole answer written that disappeared with a dropped internet line. The gist: genetics, training and doping all play a role in low blood pressure and heart rate in cyclists. Do drugs have no effect? Almost certainly not. Do they kill people? Not on their own (PEDs that is).

I think the numbers of endurance athletes who died during periods where EPO use was known to be rampant is in of itself a very strong indicator of a link.

Also, there are not stories of regular deaths of endurance athletes (or other athletes) in similar numbers which have been said to be linked to genetics and or training.

You might be interested in the career of Riccardo Ricco.
He was ejected from the 2008 Tour de France for Doping violations and returned to compete again before drawing attention to the fact that he was once again doping.

n 6 February 2011 Riccò was admitted to a hospital in critical condition, with sepsis and kidney failure, allegedly due to a blood transfusion he performed on himself with 25-day-old blood. Riccò admitted he had performed the transfusion to the doctor treating him in the presence of his girlfriend Vania Rossi. The doctor treating him reported this information to authorities leading to an investigation being opened against the professional cyclist by police and the Italian Olympic committee (CONI).[22] He was well enough to be released from hospital within two weeks, and was sacked by his team Vacansoleil–DCM.[23] Riccò later denied blood doping, but also stated that he was finished with the sport

Now, even though Ricco nearly died through how he managed the self-administered transfusion, you might argue that had he done so, it would not have been as a result of doping. I disagree.

Jayesdiem · 29-10-2019 07:04AM

I’m not disputing any of that, you’ve clearly come up with some facts. What you, or anyone else, can’t do is uncouple the potential effects of PEDs from the coexisting punishment cyclists put their bodies through during their careers. What role does that play? WWE wrestlers is another example. Traditionally they have taken steroids. Alongside that they have:

-Taken repeated blows to the head
-Travelled 300 days a year
-Taken cocktails of illicit street drugs with god knows what in them
-Barely ever see their families
-Drank alcohol on a regular basis

Now, which of the above do you think is more likely to kill a man over time, or maybe a combination of those will do it?

Then take the likes of Louis Symmons. He’s been on testosterone non stop for the best part of four decades. Same with Arnold Schwarzenegger. 73 year old Svylvester Stallone does not maintain that physique with protein shakes. Christ, testosterone itself is a widely available drug available on prescription!

In my opinion, all of the above takes Kimmages “I’m worried for their health” argument off the table. If that’s his gig, campaign for better work conditions for wrestlers or for rugby players HIA protocols.

ButtersSuki · 29-10-2019 10:05AM

Tell me how wrote: »

I admire Kimmage greatly for his stance on doping. If you look behind the scenes at the number of players and athletes who have died or suffered health concerns as a result of doping then you don't even need to think about the 'cheating' element to be concerned.

If we didn't have Kimmage trying to shine a light on this, the fan base would be even less aware and so their ignorance could be seen as tacit approval.

I wish we had more journalists like him who weren't afraid to ask the awkward questions, I had high hopes for McKenna but unfortunately I think he is motivated now by being negative. There's a grain of truth in his stories which need to be considered, but they are completely overwhelmed by rhetoric and a righteous attitude at the moment.

Shockingly I find myself agreeing with TMH for once. :pac::rolleyes:

Open declaration; I have a degree in Sports Science and have played my own sport at International level. I admire Kimmage enormously. The work he (and David Walsh) did in exposing (amongst others) Lance Armstrong at enormous cost to both is to be welcomed, not derided. No one could say he's chosen an easy path, it would be much easier to write gushing puff pieces that have become almost the norm for many of the Sunday papers. Is his style irritating to some? Undoubtedly. But we need more of this type of journalism, not less.

What I find very strange about the Heaslip revelation is why Matt Cooper didn't recongise the significance of it and fully investigate this incident (factually) before commiting this to paper. I'd lay a lot of the blame at his door for this exploding (relatively) like it has. I'm shocked he didn't tbh.

On McKenna, likewise, I had high hopes for him, but his style is quite off-putting for the casual fan I'd imagine. I agree there's an element of truth in his stories, but he could perhaps tell the tale a little better.

Beechwoodspark · 29-10-2019 10:09AM

Cooper prob gave him the soft soap shuffle. Cooper is on course to make royalties for the book he’s hardly going to start a serious investigation into his “prize goose”

Kimmage and drico comes to mind....

ButtersSuki · 29-10-2019 12:05PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Cooper prob gave him the soft soap shuffle. Cooper is on course to make royalties for the book he’s hardly going to start a serious investigation into his “prize goose”

Kimmage and drico comes to mind....

I get where you're coming from but I do think Cooper has a duty of care (of sorts) to Heaslip on this. I'd like to think he's not cynical enough to allow this to come to light like it has for the sake of some extra publicity around the book, but maybe I'm wrong?

I think he should either have quizzed Heaslip fully (and sought back up on Heaslip's version, plus the Sports Council's version) on the matter, or buried it. To allow it to go to print with shall we say "numerous inconsistencies" is I'd argue somewhat negligent, if not unprofessional. If a source came to Cooper with any other story he'd ask for evidence of some sort, yet strangely seems to have taken one person's word here as gospel.

30-10-2019 08:27AM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Cooper prob gave him the soft soap shuffle. Cooper is on course to make royalties for the book he’s hardly going to start a serious investigation into his “prize goose”

Kimmage and drico comes to mind....

Very little money to be made from Irish sports books so Cooper wouldn't have made much from it. While Cooper should have been more diligent, whoever published it would have had editors and legal people reading over it and fact checking it. Strange how it made it to print...

BPKS · 30-10-2019 09:44AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Very little money to be made from Irish sports books so Cooper wouldn't have made much from it. While Cooper should have been more diligent, whoever published it would have had editors and legal people reading over it and fact checking it. Strange how it made it to print...

Usually The Last Word would go after a story like this big time. Kimmage used to be a regular on the Friday sports hour a couple of years back IIRC.

I dont listen to it much anymore but I wonder has it got any coverage?

Or has Matt just decided to censor the story.

Jayesdiem · 30-10-2019 01:44PM

BPKS wrote: »

Usually The Last Word would go after a story like this big time. Kimmage used to be a regular on the Friday sports hour a couple of years back IIRC.

I dont listen to it much anymore but I wonder has it got any coverage?

Or has Matt just decided to censor the story.

It isn’t a story. Anywhere. It’s Kimmage doing what he does best which is making a big deal out of nothing. Nobody cares about it.

Tell me how · 30-10-2019 01:54PM

Jayesdiem wrote: »

It isn’t a story. Anywhere. It’s Kimmage doing what he does best which is making a big deal out of nothing. Nobody cares about it.

That's just not true. You are happy with people using drugs in sport, many, if not most people have a problem with that.

If you had a kid, and they showed some promise playing rugby at 16, would you want a coach suggesting they take growth hormone or testosterone boosters to increase their performance even though there will very likely be some unexpected side affects to this?

Did you hear about the athlete who was coached by Alberto Salazar and who must not now take thyroid medication for the rest of their life after being mistreated by the coach. Would you be happy if that was your child?

Beechwoodspark · 30-10-2019 01:58PM

When you say little or no money in Irish sport books. I presume heaslip would’ve been given a fairly substantial advance for the book? And then he’d pass on a cut of that to cooper?

robo · 30-10-2019 02:13PM

BPKS wrote: »

Usually The Last Word would go after a story like this big time. Kimmage used to be a regular on the Friday sports hour a couple of years back IIRC.

I dont listen to it much anymore but I wonder has it got any coverage?

Or has Matt just decided to censor the story.

Kimmage used to have the whole hour on a Monday to discuss all the sports news from the weekend & had all his little stories and analogies ready - they really must have fallen out as he is never on now, but he is never on OTB either so is it a Commincorp thingy?

Tell me how · 30-10-2019 02:21PM

robo wrote: »

Kimmage used to have the whole hour on a Monday to discuss all the sports news from the weekend & had all his little stories and analogies ready - they really must have fallen out as he is never on now, but he is never on OTB either so is it a Commincorp thingy?

If it was, I think we might have heard about it. I don't think he would sit quiet if he was being censored in that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was an advertising thing. Lots of heavy hitting advertisers around sport and particularly rugby and I'm sure they wouldn't be too pleased with a negative light being shone on it.

Somewhat similar with Ewan Mackenna who hasn't been near NT since his head to head on OTB with Ruaidhri O'Connor about the Irish rugby team. Mackenna, unlike Kimmage, is very vocal about being alienated.

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