Rugby v Football players' attitude

salmocab · 28-10-2019 01:48PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

That said, players respecting the ref in sport would be welcome but it has to come from the bottom up and be reinforced by parents and coaches. It wont ever change if they just try and use a stick at the highest level.

Why wouldn’t it work at the highest level? Abuse the ref get a card, couple of weeks of that a rash of sendings off and once the players and importantly the management realise it’s happening they would soften their coughs very quickly. Peoples exposure to football is mainly from the tv so the kids and parents think it’s acceptable behaviour.

The_Kew_Tour · 28-10-2019 01:54PM

bobbyss wrote: »

In general the attitude to decisions of the rugby players to referee decisions is mature and accepting. The footballers could learn a thing or two from them. We still remember Roy Keane going after referees and shouting in their faces.

Feigning injuries.

Even football managers after a game harrassing the referee is not a rugby thing. In fact rugby coaches are not on the side line. They are elsewhere letting their players work things our for themselves.

What explains this deep chasm in these professional sports?

Rugby players are Biggest cheats around. Drugs is rife in the Sport and the Organisation and Fans generally brush it off and shout down at others who call it out. It's a Great Sport when played with the openness of the 70s, 80s and 90s though. But since 2007 WC it's become all about the big man over the skillful one.

Cheating in Football is always brought to centre of attention and the Abuse Refs gets is disgusting at times, but it's not like its every day thing.

Alf Veedersane · 28-10-2019 01:55PM

salmocab wrote: »

Why wouldn’t it work at the highest level? Abuse the ref get a card, couple of weeks of that a rash of sendings off and once the players and importantly the management realise it’s happening they would soften their coughs very quickly. Peoples exposure to football is mainly from the tv so the kids and parents think it’s acceptable behaviour.

I don't think addressing it at the highest level alone would change it. The attitudes are created and fostered from an early age...parents and coaches shouting abuse on sidelines. That needs to be addressed before any real change would happen.

salmocab · 28-10-2019 01:59PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't think addressing it at the highest level alone would change it. The attitudes are created and fostered from an early age...parents and coaches shouting abuse on sidelines. That needs to be addressed before any real change would happen.

It certainly needs addressing at grass roots but it needs to come from the top down.

Alf Veedersane · 28-10-2019 02:01PM

salmocab wrote: »

It certainly needs addressing at grass roots but it needs to come from the top down.

The top down will change nothing where the attitudes are formed.

How the roots are addresses determines how the grass grows.

bobbyss · 28-10-2019 02:02PM

Alf Veedersane wrote:

The abuse of the HIA is a joke. Players being cleared by doctors being told to clear them to play on.

Its a joke indeed. Daniel James the Welsh football winger simulated a concussion to buy time. His manager Giggs said he showed nous to run the clock down. I dont know what the medics or his family were thinking when he was laid out 'unconscious'.

FrancieBrady · 28-10-2019 02:03PM

bobbyss wrote: »

In general the attitude to decisions of the rugby players to referee decisions is mature and accepting. The footballers could learn a thing or two from them. We still remember Roy Keane going after referees and shouting in their faces.

Feigning injuries.

Even football managers after a game harrassing the referee is not a rugby thing. In fact rugby coaches are not on the side line. They are elsewhere letting their players work things our for themselves.

What explains this deep chasm in these professional sports?

Explanation is easy.

Men (rugby) V Boys (soccer)

Women (rugby) V Girls (soccer)

Pro's (rugby) V Spoiled Petulant Brats (soccer)

I enjoy both sports, but know what you are watching!

Jimbob1977 · 28-10-2019 02:03PM

Reducing teams to eight or nine men for abuse over a few hardline weekends might wake up the managers and players.

Sending off loudmouths and untouchable star players especially.

No manager that's chasing a promotion or trying to avoid relegation wants red cards and suspensions.

There was footage from the late 1980s where David Elleray was miked up for an Arsenal game. Their behaviour was disgraceful. Still a problem 30 years later.

Alf Veedersane · 28-10-2019 02:06PM

bobbyss wrote: »

Its a joke indeed. Daniel James the Welsh football winger simulated a concussion to buy time. His manager Giggs said he showed nous to run the clock down. I dont know what the medics or his family were thinking when he was laid out 'unconscious'.

Yeah...that's worse than any or the genuinely concussed rugby players sent back out play.

As for simulation...'blood-gate'.

salmocab · 28-10-2019 02:10PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The top down will change nothing where the attitudes are formed.

How the roots are addresses determines how the grass grows.

I disagree from the top down would show the sport is serious in fixing a problem whereas from the bottom up shows it wants things to change in the future but doesn’t want to tackle the power of the players and clubs. Even silly things like John terry fixing his socks when he’s called over by the ref and not looking at the ref shows children that refs aren’t to be respected. Kids mimic what they see.

OldRio · 28-10-2019 02:10PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Yeah...that's worse than any or the genuinely confused rugby players sent back out play.

As for simulation...'blood-gate'.

What year was blood gate? What sanctions were imposed on the perpetrators?

is_that_so · 28-10-2019 02:14PM

OldRio wrote: »

What year was blood gate? What sanctions were imposed on the perpetrators?

2009

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodgate

bobbyss · 28-10-2019 02:26PM

Alf Veedersane wrote:

As for simulation...'blood-gate'.

Bloodgate. Yes. I remember that. A sly wink and all.

What? 20 years ago?

citytillidie · 28-10-2019 02:27PM

Alf Veedersane · 28-10-2019 03:27PM

OldRio wrote: »

What year was blood gate? What sanctions were imposed on the perpetrators?

2009. 9 years after the example of Roy Keane going after the referee, which was used in the OP.

Harlequins didn't get sanctioned, as far as I recall. Some of their staff were thrown under the bus though.

I'm not into a football vs. rugby debate. But let's not use one example of something from rugby to paint a holier than thou comparison with football.

Bob Harris · 28-10-2019 03:43PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The abuse of the HIA is a joke. Players being cleared by doctors being told to clear them to play on.

Stuart Pearce was being treated on the pitch for concussion. The physio shouts over to Brian Clough and says 'he doesn't know who he is boss'.
Clough shouts back 'tell him he's Pele and that he's playing up front for the last 10 minutes'.

Alf Veedersane · 28-10-2019 03:45PM

salmocab wrote: »

I disagree from the top down would show the sport is serious in fixing a problem whereas from the bottom up shows it wants things to change in the future but doesn’t want to tackle the power of the players and clubs. Even silly things like John terry fixing his socks when he’s called over by the ref and not looking at the ref shows children that refs aren’t to be respected. Kids mimic what they see.

Again, I didn't say it shouldn't be addressed at the top level. Just that the primary driver of behavioural change will come at grass roots. What they see on TV will influence them but that needs to be addressed by how it is dealt with at grass roots level and by making sure shítty behaviour is not accepted/tolerated/encouraged as it is now.

It's not going be changed by an either/or approach.

Alf Veedersane · 28-10-2019 03:50PM

Bob Harris wrote: »

Stuart Pearce was being treated on the pitch for concussion. The physio shouts over to Brian Clough and says 'he doesn't know who he is boss'.
Clough shouts back 'tell him he's Pele and that he's playing up front for the last 10 minutes'.

He's dead 15 years. Times and attitudes have changed since then.

That said, Vertonghen was allowed back on the pitch when he was in no fit state in the CL semi final last year.

OldRio · 28-10-2019 04:09PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

2009. 9 years after the example of Roy Keane going after the referee, which was used in the OP.

Harlequins didn't get sanctioned, as far as I recall. Some of their staff were thrown under the bus though.

.

Harlequins were indeed sanctioned.
As for the poster mentioning this one example so many years ago when simulation happens nearly every game in Soccer says a lot about the poster.

The Lost Sheep · 28-10-2019 04:10PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The abuse of the HIA is a joke. Players being cleared by doctors being told to clear them to play on.

But it's ok because they respect the players respect the ref.

That said, players respecting the ref in sport would be welcome but it has to come from the bottom up and be reinforced by parents and coaches. It wont ever change if they just try and use a stick at the highest level.

HiA issues and misuse is terrible and nobody has tried sayits ok.
Respecting the ref can only start at the top. Kids copy what they see their favourite players doing. If you change behaviour at top kids may start repeating what the pros do.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Rugby players are Biggest cheats around. Drugs is rife in the Sport and the Organisation and Fans generally brush it off and shout down at others who call it out. It's a Great Sport when played with the openness of the 70s, 80s and 90s though. But since 2007 WC it's become all about the big man over the skillful one.

Cheating in Football is always brought to centre of attention and the Abuse Refs gets is disgusting at times, but it's not like its every day thing.

drugs are not rife in the sport. And it's not simply about big man over the skillful. Laws changes from world rugby are always attempting to speed game up somewhat and cheating in football isnt always brought to centre of attention. Abuse refs get is far too regular of an occurrence though

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't think addressing it at the highest level alone would change it. The attitudes are created and fostered from an early age...parents and coaches shouting abuse on sidelines. That needs to be addressed before any real change would happen.

kids copy what they see their favourite players do on TV. Change behaviour there and it's far easier to change it at lowest levels. How would you alter attitudes at lower levels in hope it would then follow on to higher levels?

Alf Veedersane · 28-10-2019 04:13PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

kids copy what they see their favourite players do on TV. Change behaviour there and it's far easier to change it at lowest levels. How would you alter attitudes at lower levels in hope it would then follow on to higher levels?

You're missing the 'alone' bit in my post.

Alf Veedersane · 28-10-2019 04:20PM

OldRio wrote: »

Harlequins were indeed sanctioned.
As for the poster mentioning this one example so many years ago when simulation happens nearly every game in Soccer says a lot about the poster.

What was their punishment?

And yes, footballers cheat every weekend. So do rugby players.

bobbyss · 28-10-2019 04:58PM

On a regular basis i don't see rugby players argue and sometimes in groups approach the referee . But you see this in football quite a lot. Even the manager encroaching on the field after the game to argued with ref. This is rare in rugby.

ben.schlomo · 28-10-2019 05:12PM

bobbyss wrote: »

On a regular basis i don't see rugby players argue and sometimes in groups approach the referee . But you see this in football quite a lot. Even the manager encroaching on the field after the game to argued with ref. This is rare in rugby.

And?

Quite the turn for you, couple of years back you were claiming to be a Galway Utd fan. Jumped on the Connacht bandwagon since no doubt.

bobbyss · 28-10-2019 05:16PM

ben.schlomo wrote:

And?

ben.schlomo wrote:

Quite the turn for you, couple of years back you were claiming to be a Galway Utd fan. Jumped on the Connacht bandwagon since no doubt.

'Claiming ' to be a Galway United fan? 'Jumped' on Connacht bandwagon?
What's your point benny?

Joker2019 · 28-10-2019 05:34PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The abuse of the HIA is a joke. Players being cleared by doctors being told to clear them to play on.

But it's ok because they respect the players respect the ref.

That said, players respecting the ref in sport would be welcome but it has to come from the bottom up and be reinforced by parents and coaches. It wont ever change if they just try and use a stick at the highest level.

Because head injuries are fairly rare in football and hence rightly or wrongly there is not a whole lot of awareness of them within the game whereas in rugby it's fairly commonplace. Far more nasty injuries in rugby in general.

bobbyss · 28-10-2019 05:44PM

Joker2019 wrote:

Because head injuries are fairly rare in football and hence rightly or wrongly there is not a whole lot of awareness of them within the game whereas in rugby it's fairly commonplace. Far more nasty injuries in rugby in general.

Yep. Far nastier. Spinal injuries and all. Some paralysed for life. The sight of footballers rolling around after a tackle sadly puts that into perspective.

It all filters down from the likes of the Premier League. Young fellas in second rate leagues in second rate teams rolling around as if they were serious players.

Wanderer2010 · 28-10-2019 05:47PM

Rugby players in general come from wealthy, well-heeled backgrounds and are highly educated, many of them are solicitors, accountants and doctors and its the same for many of the fans as well. Neither the players nor the fans have the name for being thuggish or arguing with the ref/fighting with other players. Whether that's right or wrong its a cold hard fact that their backgrounds are far less "working class" than football players/fans.

Now before you lynch me, of course there are rugby players and fans who are thugs just as there are plenty of football players and fans who have never and will never cause trouble but you would have to be blind and stupid not to see the link between background and behaviour. It seems that many footballers who came from poor backgrounds just cant handle the level of fame or exposure or responsibility to stick to the rules.

ben.schlomo · 28-10-2019 05:52PM

bobbyss wrote: »

'Claiming ' to be a Galway United fan? 'Jumped' on Connacht bandwagon?
What's your point benny?

You seem very bitter towards football Robert, it's strange for someone who claimed to be an LOI fan to become that bitter over a relatively short period of time.

theoneeyedman · 28-10-2019 05:56PM

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The smugness surrounding the alleged superior respect culture towards the referee is perhaps the worst aspect of rugby people

This 100%,

If you really believe Rugby players don't complain to and about referees, then you're not watching. You can constantly see and hear on the refs mic lads calling at the ref, 'sir this " and' sir that', and before every big game managers are in the press tell taling on their opponent and how they scrum or tackle or some such. If anything, they are less honest.

Rugby v Football players' attitude

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