Rugby v Football players' attitude

bobbyss

In general the attitude to decisions of the rugby players to referee decisions is mature and accepting. The footballers could learn a thing or two from them. We still remember Roy Keane going after referees and shouting in their faces.

Feigning injuries.

Even football managers after a game harrassing the referee is not a rugby thing. In fact rugby coaches are not on the side line. They are elsewhere letting their players work things our for themselves.

What explains this deep chasm in these professional sports?

Mad_maxx

The smugness surrounding the alleged superior respect culture towards the referee is perhaps the worst aspect of rugby people

is_that_so

bobbyss wrote: »

In general the attitude to decisions of the rugby players to referee decisions is mature and accepting. The footballers could learn a thing or two from them. We still remember Roy Keane going after referees and shouting in their faces.

Feigning injuries.

Even football managers after a game harrassing the referee is not a rugby thing. In fact rugby coaches are not on the side line. They are elsewhere letting their players work things our for themselves.

What explains this deep chasm in these professional sports?

Rugby players just embrace a different kind of shenanigans whether through persistent fouling, slowing the ball, standing in the way of opponents or ignoring laws that are not policed well. The referee thing is moot in soccer now as it will bring sanctions.

Dravokivich

bobbyss wrote: »

What explains this deep chasm in these professional sports?

There is no chasm. They are both exploiting things that can gain'em an advantage. Whether in football you're tripping yourself up after getting a shove, or in rugby you're wrapping yourself around someone to stop them from rolling away after a tackle.

How a referee is managed by the players, is just another way of trying to exploit an advantage.

bobbyss

I have never seen rugby players surround and harrass a referee due to unpopular decision or even a wrong one. This can not be said for footballers. We see this constantly in footie.

L'prof

bobbyss wrote: »

I have never seen rugby players surround and harrass a referee due to unpopular decision or even a wrong one. This can not be said for footballers. We see this constantly in footie.

Because football refs allow it to happen and the footballers in turn feel that they can influence further decisions by behaving this way

daheff

In rugby if you harass or backchat a referee they have the power to reverse penalties or move them 10m further forward. thats why you dont see the ill discipline in professional rugby. go to a lower level /underage match and you'll see it

Dravokivich

bobbyss wrote: »

I have never seen rugby players surround and harrass a referee due to unpopular decision or even a wrong one. This can not be said for footballers. We see this constantly in footie.

1 swallow does not make a summer. You can't just point out 1 difference between Rugby and Football and think the Rugby players attitude is superior, when a big part of the game, is trying to get your opponent to concede penalties.

is_that_so

Dravokivich wrote: »

1 swallow does not make a summer. You can't just point out 1 difference between Rugby and Football and think the Rugby players attitude is superior, when a big part of the game, is trying to get your opponent to concede penalties.

You can see this with all the roaring when a penalty is given in the contact areas.

razorblunt

Football allows it.
The refs have mics, activate them to TV audiences. The sponsors and Sky wouldn't be long asking the FA to clamp down heavily on the abuse.
The refs were also apparently enabled to punish for dissent, I think if I've seen this half a dozen times done in games it would be a lot.

bobbyss

Dravokivich wrote:

1 swallow does not make a summer. You can't just point out 1 difference between Rugby and Football and think the Rugby players attitude is superior, when a big part of the game, is trying to get your opponent to concede penalties.

A footballer has a ball kicked towards his stomach and goes down withering in pain clutching his face. Such shamelessness. And young kids watching and aping this.

Fanny Wank

Apart from having a huge chip on your shoulder and trying to present a superiority complex what's your point OP?

For the record I'm not a rugby fan or a football fan

Edgware

is_that_so wrote: »

Rugby players just embrace a different kind of shenanigans whether through persistent fouling, slowing the ball, standing in the way of opponents or ignoring laws that are not policed well. The referee thing is moot in soccer now as it will bring sanctions.

Chck out the dirtbird attitude and language of the Alex Fergusons wannabee any Saturday on the sidelines of underage soccer.

Dravokivich

bobbyss wrote: »

A footballer has a ball kicked towards his stomach and goes down withering in pain clutching his face. Such shamelessness. And young kids watching and aping this.

The same concept is applied in rugby. You bend over too much after a tackle, the other team will pull you in and pin you down. You can't roll away, you either concede a penalty or lose a body in the defensive line, leaving a gap somewhere they can run through when the ball comes out.

bobbyss

Fanny **** wrote:

Apart from having a huge chip on your shoulder and trying to present a superiority complex what's your point OP?

The point is to have a discussion on the attitudes of professional rugby players and footballers.



As per thread title?

is_that_so

Edgware wrote: »

Chck out the dirtbird attitude and language of the Alex Fergusons wannabee any Saturday on the sidelines of underage soccer.

Yeah, often players are the best-behaved in a match. This kind of aggression is in the GAA too.

ceegee

bobbyss wrote: »

A footballer has a ball kicked towards his stomach and goes down withering in pain clutching his face. Such shamelessness. And young kids watching and aping this.

It's professional sport, everything is about risk Vs reward.
Rugby players don't dive because there is no tactical advantage in doing so, not because of honour or manliness.
Eye gouging, deliberate stamping on the head of an opponent, fish hooking have all been far more prevalent in rugby over the years compared to other sports, which would seem to rule out the idea rugby players are all gents. (Video refs have seen a reduction in these incidents as, once again, risk v reward)

Is it a worse example for our kids to watch someone feign injury than it is to watch someone deliberately inflict injury on am opponent? How many times have you seen teams choose "catch the no. 10 late" as their chosen tactic to negate players like Sexton?

fergiesfolly

I think a lot of rugby fans actually believe that saying...
"Rugby, a thugs sport for gentlemen. Soccer, a gentlemen's sport for thugs"
Seen some tackles and fowls in this world cup that were cynical, nasty and downright dangerous. You have professional players constantly being told they're breaching rules yet no sanction is imposed.
As the stakes and salaries go higher, it'll be interesting to see how much "respect" the players continue to show the referree.

blue note

It's entirely to do with what they can get away with. In soccer and GAA they can back chat a bit to a ref and they do, in rugby they can't. Whereas there is very little off the ball stuff in soccer compared to rugby in particular. Stuff that would be regarded as handbags in GAA would get you a lengthy ban in soccer. And in rugby you have a few digs thrown that don't even get commented upon. I think this is partly because it's such a physical game it's not taken too seriously, but mainly I think it's because they get away with it.

While I scoff at soccer lads getting sent off for touching a fellas face (as aggressively as something you'd see in Notting Hill) I think they it have the right idea. Seeing "handbags" in GAA or a couple of slaps being thrown in rugby pisses me off. It shouldn't be part of the game at all.

Richard Hillman

Football refs have the power to punish players in a similar way to rugby but they never enforce it.

The only football ref that I seen command respect and take no nonsense was Pierluigi Collina

The Tetrarch

Soccer.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

Are there less top shaggers in football circles?

salmocab

Obviously this is going to go down a I support something and dislike something else road as inevitably these threads do.
FWIW there is plenty of cheating in rugby but the difference is the refs don’t put up with any abuse or even much by way of back chat. It’s something that soccer could stamp out over night if they wanted but for whatever reason have chose to ignore it. Rugby refs are not any better than soccer refs they still make poor decisions the difference is down to enforcement of the respect.

riemann

If only Rugby players respected women as much as the referees.

CalamariFritti

I dont want to get into rugby players are better behaved than footballers. They're probably not. Both will cheat when and where they can I guess. Sadly it seems to be human nature.

But the thing with dissent and abusing the ref in soccer I always found weird on telly. When I grew up playing soccer in Germany and later on - played competitively until around age 30 - abuse was not tolerated. Period. Not towards the ref and not towards another player. If I called the ref an idiot or a cvnt or something I was going to be sent off. I was allowed to say I didn't agree with him but if I screamed into his face or kicked the ball away angrily or called him names that was going to be that. Maybe a yellow and stern warning first if it was little milder but there was really no leniency. There couldn't be or else they d all be calling him anything under the sun and he'd lose control of the game if it was in any way heated.

Are the EPL players really abusing the ref, can't really make out what they're saying on telly. What about lower leagues here and over in Britain??

Dog Murphy

In spite of the fact that I hate seeing dissent towards officials in any sport I hate even more this smug arrogance from Rugby about "oh look at how much better we are than other sports because we respect the refs" .

CalamariFritti

I dont quite get that. Ive never met anyone who was 'smug' because rugby players seemingly respect the ref more. There is no doubt rugby players behaviour towards the ref does look much better. Some of the games I've seen especially in Spanish or South American football, jesus, if I was the ref I'd send three players off in the space of a couple of minutes.

Alf Veedersane

It's particularly impressive that rugby players keep their cool with the ref given all the steroids

Bob Harris

bobbyss wrote: »

I have never seen rugby players surround and harrass a referee due to unpopular decision or even a wrong one. This can not be said for footballers. We see this constantly in footie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTcyamiYv8g

bobbyss

ceegee wrote:

Is it a worse example for our kids to watch someone feign injury than it is to watch someone deliberately inflict injury on am opponent? How many times have you seen teams choose "catch the no. 10 late" as their chosen tactic to negate players like Sexton?

How often have referees punished late tackles on Sexton at international level?

Alf Veedersane

The abuse of the HIA is a joke. Players being cleared by doctors being told to clear them to play on.

But it's ok because they respect the players respect the ref.

That said, players respecting the ref in sport would be welcome but it has to come from the bottom up and be reinforced by parents and coaches. It wont ever change if they just try and use a stick at the highest level.

salmocab

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

That said, players respecting the ref in sport would be welcome but it has to come from the bottom up and be reinforced by parents and coaches. It wont ever change if they just try and use a stick at the highest level.

Why wouldn’t it work at the highest level? Abuse the ref get a card, couple of weeks of that a rash of sendings off and once the players and importantly the management realise it’s happening they would soften their coughs very quickly. Peoples exposure to football is mainly from the tv so the kids and parents think it’s acceptable behaviour.

The_Kew_Tour

bobbyss wrote: »

In general the attitude to decisions of the rugby players to referee decisions is mature and accepting. The footballers could learn a thing or two from them. We still remember Roy Keane going after referees and shouting in their faces.

Feigning injuries.

Even football managers after a game harrassing the referee is not a rugby thing. In fact rugby coaches are not on the side line. They are elsewhere letting their players work things our for themselves.

What explains this deep chasm in these professional sports?

Rugby players are Biggest cheats around. Drugs is rife in the Sport and the Organisation and Fans generally brush it off and shout down at others who call it out. It's a Great Sport when played with the openness of the 70s, 80s and 90s though. But since 2007 WC it's become all about the big man over the skillful one.

Cheating in Football is always brought to centre of attention and the Abuse Refs gets is disgusting at times, but it's not like its every day thing.

Alf Veedersane

salmocab wrote: »

Why wouldn’t it work at the highest level? Abuse the ref get a card, couple of weeks of that a rash of sendings off and once the players and importantly the management realise it’s happening they would soften their coughs very quickly. Peoples exposure to football is mainly from the tv so the kids and parents think it’s acceptable behaviour.

I don't think addressing it at the highest level alone would change it. The attitudes are created and fostered from an early age...parents and coaches shouting abuse on sidelines. That needs to be addressed before any real change would happen.

salmocab

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't think addressing it at the highest level alone would change it. The attitudes are created and fostered from an early age...parents and coaches shouting abuse on sidelines. That needs to be addressed before any real change would happen.

It certainly needs addressing at grass roots but it needs to come from the top down.

Alf Veedersane

salmocab wrote: »

It certainly needs addressing at grass roots but it needs to come from the top down.

The top down will change nothing where the attitudes are formed.

How the roots are addresses determines how the grass grows.

bobbyss

Alf Veedersane wrote:

The abuse of the HIA is a joke. Players being cleared by doctors being told to clear them to play on.

Its a joke indeed. Daniel James the Welsh football winger simulated a concussion to buy time. His manager Giggs said he showed nous to run the clock down. I dont know what the medics or his family were thinking when he was laid out 'unconscious'.

FrancieBrady

bobbyss wrote: »

In general the attitude to decisions of the rugby players to referee decisions is mature and accepting. The footballers could learn a thing or two from them. We still remember Roy Keane going after referees and shouting in their faces.

Feigning injuries.

Even football managers after a game harrassing the referee is not a rugby thing. In fact rugby coaches are not on the side line. They are elsewhere letting their players work things our for themselves.

What explains this deep chasm in these professional sports?

Explanation is easy.

Men (rugby) V Boys (soccer)

Women (rugby) V Girls (soccer)

Pro's (rugby) V Spoiled Petulant Brats (soccer)


I enjoy both sports, but know what you are watching!

Jimbob1977

Reducing teams to eight or nine men for abuse over a few hardline weekends might wake up the managers and players.

Sending off loudmouths and untouchable star players especially.

No manager that's chasing a promotion or trying to avoid relegation wants red cards and suspensions.

There was footage from the late 1980s where David Elleray was miked up for an Arsenal game. Their behaviour was disgraceful. Still a problem 30 years later.

Alf Veedersane

bobbyss wrote: »

Its a joke indeed. Daniel James the Welsh football winger simulated a concussion to buy time. His manager Giggs said he showed nous to run the clock down. I dont know what the medics or his family were thinking when he was laid out 'unconscious'.

Yeah...that's worse than any or the genuinely concussed rugby players sent back out play.

As for simulation...'blood-gate'.

salmocab

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The top down will change nothing where the attitudes are formed.

How the roots are addresses determines how the grass grows.

I disagree from the top down would show the sport is serious in fixing a problem whereas from the bottom up shows it wants things to change in the future but doesn’t want to tackle the power of the players and clubs. Even silly things like John terry fixing his socks when he’s called over by the ref and not looking at the ref shows children that refs aren’t to be respected. Kids mimic what they see.

OldRio

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Yeah...that's worse than any or the genuinely confused rugby players sent back out play.

As for simulation...'blood-gate'.

What year was blood gate? What sanctions were imposed on the perpetrators?

is_that_so

OldRio wrote: »

What year was blood gate? What sanctions were imposed on the perpetrators?

2009

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodgate

bobbyss

Alf Veedersane wrote:

As for simulation...'blood-gate'.

Bloodgate. Yes. I remember that. A sly wink and all.

What? 20 years ago?

citytillidie

Alf Veedersane

OldRio wrote: »

What year was blood gate? What sanctions were imposed on the perpetrators?

2009. 9 years after the example of Roy Keane going after the referee, which was used in the OP.

Harlequins didn't get sanctioned, as far as I recall. Some of their staff were thrown under the bus though.

I'm not into a football vs. rugby debate. But let's not use one example of something from rugby to paint a holier than thou comparison with football.

Bob Harris

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The abuse of the HIA is a joke. Players being cleared by doctors being told to clear them to play on.

Stuart Pearce was being treated on the pitch for concussion. The physio shouts over to Brian Clough and says 'he doesn't know who he is boss'.
Clough shouts back 'tell him he's Pele and that he's playing up front for the last 10 minutes'.

Alf Veedersane

salmocab wrote: »

I disagree from the top down would show the sport is serious in fixing a problem whereas from the bottom up shows it wants things to change in the future but doesn’t want to tackle the power of the players and clubs. Even silly things like John terry fixing his socks when he’s called over by the ref and not looking at the ref shows children that refs aren’t to be respected. Kids mimic what they see.

Again, I didn't say it shouldn't be addressed at the top level. Just that the primary driver of behavioural change will come at grass roots. What they see on TV will influence them but that needs to be addressed by how it is dealt with at grass roots level and by making sure shítty behaviour is not accepted/tolerated/encouraged as it is now.

It's not going be changed by an either/or approach.

Alf Veedersane

Bob Harris wrote: »

Stuart Pearce was being treated on the pitch for concussion. The physio shouts over to Brian Clough and says 'he doesn't know who he is boss'.
Clough shouts back 'tell him he's Pele and that he's playing up front for the last 10 minutes'.

He's dead 15 years. Times and attitudes have changed since then.

That said, Vertonghen was allowed back on the pitch when he was in no fit state in the CL semi final last year.

OldRio

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

2009. 9 years after the example of Roy Keane going after the referee, which was used in the OP.

Harlequins didn't get sanctioned, as far as I recall. Some of their staff were thrown under the bus though.

.

Harlequins were indeed sanctioned.
As for the poster mentioning this one example so many years ago when simulation happens nearly every game in Soccer says a lot about the poster.

The Lost Sheep

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The abuse of the HIA is a joke. Players being cleared by doctors being told to clear them to play on.

But it's ok because they respect the players respect the ref.

That said, players respecting the ref in sport would be welcome but it has to come from the bottom up and be reinforced by parents and coaches. It wont ever change if they just try and use a stick at the highest level.

HiA issues and misuse is terrible and nobody has tried sayits ok.
Respecting the ref can only start at the top. Kids copy what they see their favourite players doing. If you change behaviour at top kids may start repeating what the pros do.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Rugby players are Biggest cheats around. Drugs is rife in the Sport and the Organisation and Fans generally brush it off and shout down at others who call it out. It's a Great Sport when played with the openness of the 70s, 80s and 90s though. But since 2007 WC it's become all about the big man over the skillful one.

Cheating in Football is always brought to centre of attention and the Abuse Refs gets is disgusting at times, but it's not like its every day thing.

drugs are not rife in the sport. And it's not simply about big man over the skillful. Laws changes from world rugby are always attempting to speed game up somewhat and cheating in football isnt always brought to centre of attention. Abuse refs get is far too regular of an occurrence though

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't think addressing it at the highest level alone would change it. The attitudes are created and fostered from an early age...parents and coaches shouting abuse on sidelines. That needs to be addressed before any real change would happen.

kids copy what they see their favourite players do on TV. Change behaviour there and it's far easier to change it at lowest levels. How would you alter attitudes at lower levels in hope it would then follow on to higher levels?