Irish Rail Overcrowding on RTE Prime Time Tonight

Jamie2k9 · 24-10-2019 8:48pm #1

Looks like high profile incidents on Mayo line have brought some bad PR and now a Prime Time slot.

Appears reference to 2700 will also be made. Management are also suggesting certain trains could become reservation only. I suspect this is them trying to apply tactical pressure on NTA and Goverment and not a serous proposal.

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2019/1024/1085459-trains-overcrowding/

mfceiling · 24-10-2019 8:53pm

I'd say it's a problem on most commuter routes tbh.
I couldn't believe it myself until I got the bus this morning. 6.25 leaving the terminus at limekiln avenue. I'm about the 6th or 7th stop and when the bus came all the seats downstairs were taken and there was 11 people at my stop!! Bus literally had no seats left at terenure.

magicbastarder · 24-10-2019 8:55pm

don't worry, the government are coming to the rescue - they've announced half a billion spend on a couple of roads out west in the last week or two...

Del.Monte · 24-10-2019 8:58pm

CIE/IE need to close all the lightly used lines and replace them with buses - thereby releasing 10 or 12 carriages - bound to solve the problem but the suggestion will be out there.

CIE/IE should not be allowed to make any decisions about acquisitions of locomotives or rolling stock as they have proved to be incapable of getting it right time after time. Bet RTE won't ask about the MkIIIs - would they even know what one was? Another BS programme will be produced - space filling by the National BS Broadcaster.

CoBo55 · 24-10-2019 9:00pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

CIE/IE need to close all the lightly used lines and replace them with buses - thereby releasing 10 or 12 carriages - bound to solve the problem but the suggestion will be out there.

CIE/IE should not be allowed to make any decisions about acquisitions of locomotives or rolling stock as they have proved to be incapable of getting it right time after time. Bet RTE won't ask about the MkIIIs - would they even know what one was? Another BS programme will be produced - space filling by the National BS Broadcaster.

Somebody's miffed..

seligehgit · 24-10-2019 9:17pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

don't worry, the government are coming to the rescue - they've announced half a billion spend on a couple of roads out west in the last week or two...

One dual carriageway as far as I know that is'nt costing anywhere near half a billion and has been badly needed for 20 to 25 years plus.

Dravokivich · 24-10-2019 10:10pm

So, it came across as more of a snapshot of what's happening, than an informative report.

Del.Monte · 24-10-2019 10:10pm

Well that was non-event as expected. Roll on RTE to the next topic and where was Barry Kenny? Rediscover the Joy of the Train my hole!

L1011 · 24-10-2019 10:21pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

CIE/IE need to close all the lightly used lines and replace them with buses - thereby releasing 10 or 12 carriages - bound to solve the problem but the suggestion will be out there.

I've mentioned it as an unlikely and of limited use thing that could be done temporarily; along with the even less plausible idea of getting the RPSI to operate one/some of the branch lines. I don't think anyone takes them seriously :pac:

IE 222 · 24-10-2019 10:53pm

They could probably squeeze a bit more out the mark4s to be fair. There must be at least 3 sets overnighting in Dublin. One or two of these could probably be used on a Kildare, Portlaoise or the Carlow & Athlone services in the morning peak and free a ICR or 2 up while been back to Hueston in time for there normal duties.

Is the 8:00am Mallow - Cork a mark4 set? I presume this does the 9:25 from Cork. What service does it form the evening before? Could this be swapped to a 3 or 4 car ICR instead as I wouldn't of thought the 8am and the 9:25am would be overly busy.

Klonker · 25-10-2019 12:04am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Looks like high profile incidents on Mayo line have brought some bad PR and now a Prime Time slot.

Appears reference to 2700 will also be made. Management are also suggesting certain trains could become reservation only. I suspect this is them trying to apply tactical pressure on NTA and Goverment and not a serous proposal.

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2019/1024/1085459-trains-overcrowding/

The RTE links stats the carriages are in the process of being ordered. What's the delay? Plus it takes 2 years to fill the order. Why weren't the carriages ordered 1 or 2 years ago, we obviously have a growing population.

The same thing is happening with the Dart and its actually funny that they are asking people to try not to get peak time Darts if possible. When they updated their timetables about a year ago they actually admitted that they took frequency and capacity away from peak services to have 10 min Darts throughout the day when nobody is using them. You couldn't make it up. Some of the people at the top making the decisions need to change.

Geuze · 25-10-2019 12:25am

Del.Monte wrote: »

CIE/IE should not be allowed to make any decisions about acquisitions of locomotives or rolling stock as they have proved to be incapable of getting it right time after time. Bet RTE won't ask about the MkIIIs - would they even know what one was? Another BS programme will be produced - space filling by the National BS Broadcaster.

So as well as the 2700 fleet being mothballed in storage, what is the status of the Mk IIIs?

These used to be used on Dub-Cork?

Gekko · 25-10-2019 12:31am

seligehgit wrote: »

One dual carriageway as far as I know that is'nt costing anywhere near half a billion and has been badly needed for 20 to 25 years plus.

One in Mayo and other Clare or somewhere and both come to half a bill

whisky_galore · 25-10-2019 12:50am

Geuze wrote: »

what is the status of the Mk IIIs?

These used to be used on Dub-Cork?

You've probably shaved with some of them.

whisky_galore · 25-10-2019 1:02am

Gekko wrote: »

One in Mayo and other Clare or somewhere and both come to half a bill

Dem mosherways are the sexy vote getters, rail isn't. FG have always been anti rail.

prinzeugen · 25-10-2019 1:17am

Del.Monte wrote: »

CIE/IE should not be allowed to make any decisions about acquisitions of locomotives or rolling stock as they have proved to be incapable of getting it right time after time. Bet RTE won't ask about the MkIIIs - would they even know what one was? Another BS programme will be produced - space filling by the National BS Broadcaster.

Procurement was taken out of the hands of CIE/IE and that is the problem. We now have idiots in the RPA/NTA with zero railway experience, arguing about bi-modes etc when there could have been new stock in service now had it been left to IE.

Jamie2k9 · 25-10-2019 9:23am

Must say it was a major let down by RTE. Why didn't they bring the NTA or even get a statement from them explaining why they have yet to take action.

On the plus side the pre-booked proposal is working effectively:

Committee chair hits out at Iarnród Éireann over pre-booking

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1025/1085532-irish-rail-booking/

Del.Monte · 25-10-2019 9:44am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Procurement was taken out of the hands of CIE/IE and that is the problem. We now have idiots in the RPA/NTA with zero railway experience, arguing about bi-modes etc when there could have been new stock in service now had it been left to IE.

So you're telling me that it was the RPA/NTA decided to get rid of the MkIIIs and replace with sardine cans - not Dick Fearn? The NTA/RPA decided that SDO should not be a design feature of the new trains etc.etc.?

Salmon Leap · 25-10-2019 10:09am

Geuze wrote: »

So as well as the 2700 fleet being mothballed in storage, what is the status of the Mk IIIs?

These used to be used on Dub-Cork?

Mk3s scrapped a few years ago

2700 fleet apparently would cost 40m+ to refurb as they were unreliable anyway even before mothballing

Geuze · 25-10-2019 10:58am

So to confirm/clarify the fleet:

Locos + Mark IV on Dub-Cork
Locos + DeDietrich on Dub-Belfast

2600 DMU = 17 coaches, mainly based in Cork
2800 DMU = 20 coaches, 10x2car trains
29000 DMU = 29 x 4car trains, These are mainly used around Dublin?

22000 ICR = 63 trains, with 41 more of these coaches on order?

And all of these are flat out in use every day??

There is no spare stock at all?

Does NI have any spare stock?

Del.Monte · 25-10-2019 11:09am

NO spare stock at all. Perhaps CIE should hire the Belmond MkIII set back during winter months?

L1011 · 25-10-2019 11:12am

There was usually one 4 car 22k set spare in Dublin but they are rotating them through an interior refresh at the moment. Also you do need spares for failures.

NI hasn't got anything we could get long-term. They are still down a route due to a claimed lack of stock to run it, although its clear they don't intend to reopen it

Charles Babbage · 25-10-2019 11:18am

magicbastarder wrote: »

don't worry, the government are coming to the rescue - they've announced half a billion spend on a couple of roads out west in the last week or two...

This is exactly the type of comment that undermines all of these discussions.
At least one of those roads was planned a dozen years ago and not proceeded with, it hardly reflects any priority being given to roads and delaying those roads will not retrospectively ensure that carriages were ordered in 2016. The problem here is that this government is more hung up on promising tax cuts than investing in anything and they have zero concept of value for money and a timely planning process which ensures that panics do not occur is required in all aspects of public planning.

Procurement was taken out of the hands of CIE/IE and that is the problem. We now have idiots in the RPA/NTA with zero railway experience, arguing about bi-modes etc when there could have been new stock in service now had it been left to IE.

Fancy equipment for the future is all very fine, but the first objective has to be to have sufficient capacity at all times. Imagine if Eirgrid had planned lots of renewable capacity for 2030, but did not ensure there would not be brownouts in the meantime?

Of course, being Ireland, nobody will be held responsible for this.

Jamie2k9 · 25-10-2019 11:45am

L1011 wrote: »

There was usually one 4 car 22k set spare in Dublin but they are rotating them through an interior refresh at the moment. Also you do need spares for failures.

NI hasn't got anything we could get long-term. They are still down a route due to a claimed lack of stock to run it, although its clear they don't intend to reopen it

But its not really spare it's a standby set covering for 56 other sets which could encounter issues anytime. There will also be 2-3 sets under going heavy maintenance/testing etc at any time.

end of the road · 25-10-2019 2:17pm

so, to do the numbers.
63 ICR sets.
56 in daily service.
1 standby.
3 out for maintenence and 3 out for testing?
so 7 sets not in service per day? there is surely some scope to cut down the number out.

IE 222 · 25-10-2019 3:59pm

Of the 56 sets how many of them are actually working in a multiple formation throughout the day. This obviously brings that number down in terms of actual available trains.

How many extra formations are the 41 new cars going to create?

L1011 · 25-10-2019 4:27pm

Don't think that figure is available. There's plenty of 3+4 pairs in use daily so there are driving cars that can be released anyway

IE 222 · 25-10-2019 6:02pm

L1011 wrote: »

Don't think that figure is available. There's plenty of 3+4 pairs in use daily so there are driving cars that can be released anyway

Plenty of 3+3 as well. I've seen the odd 4+4 but not sure if that's a regular formation.

Presumably the 10 premier sets will be reformed into 6 car sets which leaves 48 3 car and the 5 6 car high capacity sets to play with. My guess the fleet would be made into something like,

6 x 7 car (formed using 3&4 car sets)
10 x 6car (premier sets)
20 x 5car (including the 5 high capacity sets)
10 x 4car (16 including the ones used to make 7car sets)
11 x 3car (17 including the ones used to make 7car sets)

Currently there is

10 x 5cars
25 x 4cars
28 x 3cars

I'd say at least 20 of them 3 and 4 car sets are working in multiples bringing the number of available trains down to around 45. Not forgetting that 7 sets are kept out of service as spares and for maintenance. My suggestion would make an extra 12 trains available, just over a 25% increase.

Jamie2k9 · 25-10-2019 6:03pm

Should say the figure of 56 isn’t confirmed but its around that number. Max I would say 58.

Relating to number joined units is probably around 25-30 so about 15 trains at various times during day. Remember some split/join at times.

The number out of service isn’t many as 2-3 on maintenance, I believe they have to do a big check once a month. Others could be getting new wheels/overhauls/tests/repairs and may need to cover for a bigger failure.

dowlingm · 25-10-2019 6:19pm

Salmon Leap wrote: »

Mk3s scrapped a few years ago

2700 fleet apparently would cost 40m+ to refurb as they were unreliable anyway even before mothballing

They could have used the 2700s to test out hybrid power and ZF transmissions rather than messing around with 22Ks.

As for the 22K 41 cars, there will be a big song and dance when they arrive in Dublin Port (assuming they don't get rusted from fertilizer again) but the commissioning process will doubtless be long and painful, with in-service 22s having to be taken OOS to form the head and tail for the new cars and flogged up and down the tracks to generate test mileage... and meanwhile the 29000s having to be put in dry dock before they fall apart entirely.

IE 222 · 25-10-2019 8:37pm

dowlingm wrote: »

They could have used the 2700s to test out hybrid power and ZF transmissions rather than messing around with 22Ks.

As for the 22K 41 cars, there will be a big song and dance when they arrive in Dublin Port (assuming they don't get rusted from fertilizer again) but the commissioning process will doubtless be long and painful, with in-service 22s having to be taken OOS to form the head and tail for the new cars and flogged up and down the tracks to generate test mileage... and meanwhile the 29000s having to be put in dry dock before they fall apart entirely.

If timed for a summer arrival it shouldn't be to bad. If the 2900s can be removed form intercity duties they could use these to kickstart a refurbishment program.

Is 41 set in stone or is there any hope of an increase. Giving how long this process is taking I wouldn't hold my breath on the new Darts been ordered anytime soon.

Irish Rail Overcrowding on RTE Prime Time Tonight

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