ClanofLams wrote: » It certainly couldn’t have gone much worse. My view is fairly straightforward, jerseys shouldn’t be owned but earned repeatedly. Standards need to be met to retain your place. You tell Murray or who ever you’re not playing up to form you need to do x y and z better, if you do you’ll be starting at the World Cup, if you don’t you won’t. If he doesn’t raise his standards, you go with Luke McGrath if he’s your second choice. The year went about as bad it could have possibly gone with performances way below what they had been and yet we somehow ended up starting a team that could have been predicted last November. That isn’t the sign of an elite team and it will never result in success.
irishbucsfan wrote: » Really? They were just over rated? I'd say in almost every position on that day we had one of the top couple players we've ever had in the professional era. And yet they barely took a shot at Wales, caught completely cold. On the biggest day of their careers. Now obviously there were other problems, the decision to pick ROG and general gameplan failures, but we also greatly underperformed on the day. A common problem. Just like Schmidt dropping Toner. As you said, he has also been called ruthless. It's almost like even a pragmatic experienced coach can't just fix his problems with an entire team underperforming by dropping the entire team... Almost like a coach is responsible for more than just picking a team. It's not championship manager 2001. It's interesting that this has been identified by people with huge experience of success in the game as a problem. Its been identified by people present as a problem. There's a clear example of a focus on this side of the game greatly improving a team's ability to deliver on their percieved potential with more consistency. There's a lot of symptoms across Irish rugby that match up to similar problems. And yet you're dismissing it out of hand.
Foxtrol wrote: » From how the team performed during the WC when Sexton wasn't on the pitch some signs point that it could very well have been much worse. I hope to see your view to stay consistent and you'll call for Aki to be benched for a Champions Cup or key Pro 14 game if he has any poor run of form for Connacht in the future, no matter who the next choice ends up being available.
bilston wrote: » Well within 18 months of the 2007 debacle we won the Grand Slam and Leinster won the HEC, in fact Munster won the HEC less than 9 months after the 2007 WC. The players will be mentally strong enough to recover.
ClanofLams wrote: » It’s obviously a much smaller scale but Tom Farrell has been one of the standout players for Connacht over the last two seasons and hasn’t started a game all season due to form, I’m fine with that. If Aki has a sustained period of below par performances then I would expect him to be dropped.
Mr Tickle wrote: » Same with Marmion.
kilns wrote: » Ireland to win the 2020 six nations, you heard it here first
jacothelad wrote: » Addison?
bilston wrote: » Interestingly this is the first time (certainly in the last 20 years) where an Irish head coach has bowed out immediately after a WC. I wonder if that will mean we adopt a different approach to previous world cup aftermaths, it might be that we see more change in 2020 than what we saw in 2016, 2012, 2008 and 2004. I don't include 2000 because, although it took a hammering at Twickenham, there was actually significant change that year after the '99 disaster in Lens.
washman3 wrote: » That should make us World Number 1 again and the cycle starts all over. All we need now is a few new slogans to brainwash the 'fans' :D
Shefwedfan wrote: » The fact we could pick the team and squad a year out with the entire squad having experience was seen as a huge plus Now in hindsight everyone is saying it’s a negative?
AbusesToilets wrote: » Watched the Ire vs Wales 1/4 this morning, to add to my misery. It's shocking similar the issues we had in that game to the NZ one. Physically dominated, unable to match the intensity of the opposition, one out runner after one out runner. What is it with the team that they fail to get up for a competitive game? The England match in the 6n was a perfect illustration. If they can't manage to rouse themselves for a game against them at home, when can they?
ClanofLams wrote: » I had no interest in getting into an analysis of the 2011 World Cup so I probably said over rated a bit glibly but as you point out, not being settled on your halfbacks is a serious issue. I perhaps should have said the Welsh XV was under rated, their fifteen that started that day is arguably their greatest in the professional era and they have had some good sides. This is something that Schmidt has chosen to come out with after the match and frankly it’s a pretty handy excuse to throw out there. I think it’s a bit of a cop out and a massive reach to say a team comprised of many who have won every medal in the game bar the World Cup have a mental failing. You frequently point to the France performance in 2018, that was a year ago, showed massive mental strength to go forty plus phases from their own 22. It’s also a massive reach to say this is an ongoing thing that affects every Ireland team in every tournament. Your comparison to the All Blacks is ridiculous. That was a team that was for large spells the best in the World but coming up slightly short in World Cups. It wasn’t a team that got three hidings in the only three competitive fixtures they played against top tier teams and lost to a tier two side, admittedly an excellent tier two side. Ultimately Ireland have had an absolute disastrous year, yet their starting XV could have been predicted a year ago (maybe some had Toner as first choice, but Ryan Henderson was always likely to win out I thought, worth pointing out Toner had injury issues too). The team performed way below standard and there was no consequences for such performances. We put them out after nine months of that hoping they would pick up their form on the grass while the All Blacks were doing the haka. Unsurprisingly, it didn’t work.
Foxtrol wrote: » I hope to see your view to stay consistent and you'll call for Aki to be benched for a Champions Cup or key Pro 14 game if he has any poor run of form for Connacht in the future, no matter who the next choice ends up being available.
Foxtrol wrote: » How about if Farrell is out, like Carbery was for the 6 nations game and the early WC? Would you also be good with benching Aki?
irishbucsfan wrote: » Im not saying it because Schmidt came out with it after the match. I came to my own conclusion. I only realised Schmidt had also said it when you pointed it out (haven’t really watched any media or interviews since). But there you go. Seems multiple people think this is a very important part of the game. Seems it was vital in turning around the ABs as well to become one of the most concsistent teams in world sports. But maybe you know better and it’s just a cop out. The fact you use the mental strength against France as an example just says to me you don’t fully appreciate how this affects teams in different situations. To be fair I also didn’t until I was lucky enough to discuss it with a guy who was on that side at a dinner and then got (Some very low level I’m sure) coaching along those lines through my club. We are more than capable of showing huge mental strength. That’s not the problem, no one is saying the team is incapable of showing mental strength. I genuinely think you should listen to some experts in the field discuss their opinions on this. The Richie McCaw documentary is a place to start. For example the problem with NZ in 2007 was not that they were mentally weak, it’s that they did not give themselves the tools to bring themselves back to a state where they were comfortable. Or when they needed a drop goal and suddenly they were incapable of doing it because they had never considered that failure scenario together. Small changes in approach and preparation to allow elite athletes to take back control of their performance and deliver even when things aren’t going to plan. Rather than repeatedly watching our teams turn completely into ghosts for the first half on the biggest stage because of a couple of early mistakes. I know it’s easier to say it’s selection. I know for armchair fans that’s the first thing we think of when we think about the job of a coach. But it’s just not the problem, there’s very very little argument that the XV we put out aren’t the best players available or very close, they just weren’t able to perform. It was a performance problem, and as inconvenient as it might be that the problem is something that is extremely complex and requires genuine professional expertise to solve, there’s absolutely nothing to be gained by pretending it’s something easy just so we can justify a rant, that’s just masturbation.
aloooof wrote: » I don't think anyone is saying a player should be dropped without any consideration for who is next is line. Connacht's quality of squad depth isn't anywhere near Ireland's, for obvious reasons. And I go back to my point above.
Foxtrol wrote: » The drop off from Sexton and Murray playing well is much larger than most positions for Ireland. When they are on form they are the best in the world and their replacements don't come close.
Foxtrol wrote: » The argument that was being made, and what was apparently 'proved in 2019', was that players should be benched if they aren't performing to send some kind of message to them and the squad. If you start putting in caveats then their whole argument falls apart.
ClanofLams wrote: » I never said Sexton should be dropped. I said leaving him on the pitch for 72 minutes when he’s the worst player on the field sends out a bad message to the squad. As for your example, I would be fine with Robb and Godwin starting. But I appreciate the point you are making about inexperience of back ups. I actually said on here earlier this week that Sexton couldn’t have been dropped for Cardiff due to Carty’s inexperience but he should have been off much earlier.
aloooof wrote: » No disagreement there. You made the implication that ClanOfLams argument was that players should be dropped without any consideration of who is next in line. I didn't see anywhere that he suggested this. (He specifically mentioned replacements, e.g. if Ross Byrne had been on the bench vs Wales he'd have wanted him on sooner too). And that's a perfectly reasonable caveat, for obvious reasons. ClanOfClams clearly thinks the back-ups are good enough replacements. You seem to differ (which is completely fine). But nowhere was it being said that players should be dropped without any consideration for who the next in line is.
Foxtrol wrote: » You need to go back a few pages but there were plenty of broad claims thrown around (not necessarily all by ClanOfLams) that if a player isn't performing they should be benched, 'won't somebidy please think of the squad players' if stars are underperforming and aren't dropped, and that in 2019 we've learned for a fact that players cant play themselves into form. The point where I jumped in was that I agree in most cases and have seen Schmidt do this repeatedly, as both Leinster and Irish coach, but when it comes to star players where the drop off is large it becomes a much grayer area, where that absolute talk doesn't work, it isn't really the fault of a coach if there are players that are deemed 'undroppable' and the choice to stick with the incumbents isn't proved the wrong approach if results don't go their way.
Foxtrol wrote: » On Sexton I accept you didn't but others with similar opinion as you on benching have called for that. For me when it comes to benching a player it isn't just inexperience at issue, it is the player's current ceiling. There is a judgement call that can only be made by the coach and we only know whether it was right or not in hindsight.
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