Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

joe40 · 22-10-2019 09:13PM

I thought I had a handle on this Brexit but must admit now I'm confused and apologies if this stupid but is this where we are now?
The deal has been passed but not the timetable.
MPs have supported the deal but then want to add amendment s which will change the deal they have supported. So they're not really supporting the deal. Is that what is happening now or have I got it all wrong?

Mr.Nice Guy · 22-10-2019 09:14PM

Enzokk wrote: »

I am really concerned for the UK, even if we are relatively shielded from the effect of Brexit with the deal we have agreed, but the ordinary person who has been led astray by liars who will suffer the most. It is not fair that these people should suffer because MPs are too freaking lazy to read the bill or are tired of Brexit. They should not suffer because the millionaires in government will be fine and their friends will make a killing from deregulation.

At the end of the day we will suffer as well if the UK suffers long term. They are still an important partner of ours and we should want to see them as strong as possible, but they are making it very hard to root for them to turn this doomed ship around.

The UK is finished long term. If the Scots have any sense they will head for the life rafts and vote for independence and a return to the EU. Unionists in NI meanwhile are starting to realise that not even the conservatives across the water care about them. The older generation will cling to the fleg, but younger voters have different priorities. Even the Welsh are starting to have conversations about their future.

Spanish Eyes · 22-10-2019 09:14PM

if Bercow had not been Speaker for this session, there would have been no scrutiny of the lengths some would have gone to achieve their aims.

I give him 10/10 and wish him a very happy exit from the Speaker's Chair. He will go far.

The next incumbent has a hard act to follow, and I will miss the drama.

prawnsambo · 22-10-2019 09:14PM

joe40 wrote: »

I thought I had a handle on this Brexit but must admit now I'm confused and apologies if this stupid but is this where we are now?
The deal has been passed but not the timetable.
MPs have supported the deal but then want to add amendment s which will change the deal they have supported. So they're not really supporting the deal. Is that what is happening now or have I got it all wrong?

Look at my post above. It's just got through the 2nd reading in the house of commons. The programme motion is not a legislative stage, just a procedural issue as to how long it takes up on the timetable.

Enzokk · 22-10-2019 09:15PM

liamtech wrote: »

With the Deal bill technically being passed (but not the timetable) - Is it not permissible for the EU Parliament to ratify on their end????

Where is Guy Verhofstadt on this i wonder? - he was rightly infuriated earlier

This is just propaganda, they have moved to the next stage where they should study the deal and where amendments could be tabled. If there is an amendment the government doesn't like, like a permanent customs union, then it is likely the government could vote against their own deal.

So please, the bill has not technically been passed, not by a long shot. In fact the votes tonight shows in what a precarious position Johnson is, he doesn't have the votes to get anything through, not by begging or threatening.

To add to my earlier tweet about where the European Parliament stands, here is another MEP advocating the obvious for anyone but those who know they sold a defective product and cannot honor the promises they made,

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1186611134993960960?s=20

There has to be a second referendum on the deal vs Remain. If the people vote for the deal then Labour will support the government in getting it through.

liamtech · 22-10-2019 09:18PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

This is misreading the vote, the deal has gone to the amendment stage. It is very possible that the HoC amends the legislation that is not compatible with the deal agreed with the EU therefore it is not the agreed WA

Ok so we are effectively being spun a great success but again its unicorns - splendid

Still the EU could push ahead -

Enzokk · 22-10-2019 09:19PM

joe40 wrote: »

I thought I had a handle on this Brexit but must admit now I'm confused and apologies if this stupid but is this where we are now?
The deal has been passed but not the timetable.
MPs have supported the deal but then want to add amendment s which will change the deal they have supported. So they're not really supporting the deal. Is that what is happening now or have I got it all wrong?

It would have been embarrassing had Johnson lost the first vote but it would have meant little as MPs are also aware they have to give the deal a chance. If they had rejected it at the first stage it would have allowed Johnson more ammunition in his People vs Parliament narrative he will fight the next GE on. The vote was only to move it on to the next stage, not on the deal itself. You cannot vote against the deal or add amendments if it doesn't move forward, so this vote was not an approval of the deal no matter how much No.10 want people to think it was.

joe40 · 22-10-2019 09:19PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Look at my post above. It's just got through the 2nd reading in the house of commons. The programme motion is not a legislative stage, just a procedural issue as to how long it takes up on the timetable.

Thanks makes it clearer, I hadn't seen your post when typing.
So Boris making a big fuss of the deal been passed is not fully true. Surprise surprise

Kermit.de.frog · 22-10-2019 09:21PM

Dutch politicians have nothing better to do than get involved in a sovereign matter for the UK?

The UK voted to leave.

They should mind their own business.

liamtech · 22-10-2019 09:23PM

just announced Tusk has advised EU27 to accept an extension in line with the Benn Act - the January 2020 one -

prawnsambo · 22-10-2019 09:24PM

joe40 wrote: »

Thanks makes it clearer, I hadn't seen your post when typing.
So Boris making a big fuss of the deal been passed is not fully true. Surprise surprise

No. His real problems are just beginning. Because he's lost the programme motion, he is now going to have to let it be scrutinised over a longer time period. And that's where it will get really sticky. All the holes will be found and it will be amended to fix them.

Enzokk · 22-10-2019 09:24PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Dutch politicians have nothing better to do than get involved in a sovereign matter for the UK?

The UK voted to leave.

They should mind their own business.

The European Parliament has been waiting to vote on Brexit for almost a year but the UK hasn't been able to agree to a deal. They are proposing a sensible way forward. I suspect the UK will not listen to the advice but there is nothing wrong with trying to help out their friends (as Johnson is so find of calling the EU) from the UK.

As for the extension, here is the Tusk view,

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1186737952313004032?s=20

So he will recommend they accept the request as written.

J Mysterio · 22-10-2019 09:25PM

Hurrache wrote: »

Who'd have thought that Michael Collins would be quoted in the HoC in a debate on Brexit when this deal is said to be a step to freedom!

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1186708343378927616?s=19

That is just totally surreal.

joe40 · 22-10-2019 09:25PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Dutch politicians have nothing better to do than get involved in a sovereign matter for the UK?

The UK voted to leave.

They should mind their own business.

She was asked her opinion by the British media, the BBC no less, and gave her personal opinion.

prawnsambo · 22-10-2019 09:25PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Dutch politicians have nothing better to do than get involved in a sovereign matter for the UK?

The UK voted to leave.

They should mind their own business.

They're MEPs. They get to vote on the WA too y'know.

GM228 · 22-10-2019 09:25PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

A bills stages through the Houses:

HoC
1st reading
2nd reading
Committee stage
Report stage
3rd reading

HoL
1st reading
2nd reading
Committee stage
Report stage
3rd reading

Royal Assent.

Your forgetting the Parliamentary Ping Pong stage which would come after the HoL third reading, whilst rare a bill can fail at the very last hurdle.

Enzokk · 22-10-2019 09:26PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

No. His real problems are just beginning. Because he's lost the programme motion, he is now going to have to let it be scrutinised over a longer time period. And that's where it will get really sticky. All the holes will be found and it will be amended to fix them.

It will only be scrutinized if he brings it back. Who knows if they will even be brave enough to do that.

liamtech · 22-10-2019 09:28PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Dutch politicians have nothing better to do than get involved in a sovereign matter for the UK?

The UK voted to leave.

They should mind their own business.

Bravo - i mean its not like the EU is, ye know,

-being messed about with

-Refereed to in unparliamentary (or what should be unparliamentary terms) in the HOC - imperialist protectionist racket

-Repeatedly accused of interfering in Northern Ireland despite the obvious concern of one of its members

-having its entire process being held up with negotiations, renegotiation's, and further talks

-was being threatened for months, with a No Deal Hard Brexit border being enforced along the frontier of one of its member states, and in contravention of the GFA

Yea those EU people just sticking there noses in - well spotted Kermit

GM228 · 22-10-2019 09:29PM

The next issue now that an extension is likely is the issue of a UK Commissioner.

A Dub in Glasgo · 22-10-2019 09:29PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Dutch politicians have nothing better to do than get involved in a sovereign matter for the UK?

The UK voted to leave.

They should mind their own business.

Is it all right for these politicians?

https://twitter.com/DKShrewsbury/status/1185990368795463680

Duane Dibbley · 22-10-2019 09:30PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

if Bercow had not been Speaker for this session, there would have been no scrutiny of the lengths some would have gone to achieve their aims.

I give him 10/10 and wish him a very happy exit from the Speaker's Chair. He will go far.

The next incumbent has a hard act to follow, and I will miss the drama.

Anybody but Eleanor Laing.

briany · 22-10-2019 09:31PM

liamtech wrote: »

With the Deal bill technically being passed (but not the timetable) - Is it not permissible for the EU Parliament to ratify on their end????

Where is Guy Verhofstadt on this i wonder? - he was rightly infuriating
Oh there he is

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1186733216251691009

You know what they say - if you let bullies know they're getting to you, they'll only get worse. If Farage senses he can annoy EU leaders into cutting the cord, he's only going to act more degenerate.

LeinsterDub · 22-10-2019 09:33PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I will say it again, the method of voting in the HoC is a farce and they need to move with the times

Something modern and efficient like we have in the Dáil perhaps? Can't see anything going wrong with that. At least with their system you actually have to bother to turn up

prawnsambo · 22-10-2019 09:37PM

briany wrote: »

You know what they say - if you let bullies know they're getting to you, they'll only get worse. If Farage senses he can annoy EU leaders into cutting the cord, he's only going to act more degenerate.

Farage is already in trouble for not declaring his interests. And Arron Banks is passing on the paperwork they need to prove it apparently.

liamtech · 22-10-2019 09:39PM

briany wrote: »

You know what they say - if you let bullies know they're getting to you, they'll only get worse. If Farage senses he can annoy EU leaders into cutting the cord, he's only going to act more degenerate.

i agree with you but i suspect Farage is less of a 'bully' - more of a 'man who wanders into meetings and screams large amounts of absurd nonsense, which wrecks everyones head'

Nigel Farage has sent a letter to Nigel Farage saying 'I resign'. And Nigel Farage has responded to Nigel Farage saying 'I refuse'. That's the way it works there.

- Manfred WEBER

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage

Besides an election gets the Brexit Party into the HOC, in some form or another~

GM228 · 22-10-2019 09:46PM

Interesting to note the 2016 referendum saw a 52% to 48% result

Johnson won the reading today 52% to 48,%, then the timetable was lost 52% to 48%.

52% must be a magic Brexit number.

liamtech · 22-10-2019 09:48PM

SKy saying France only supports short technical extension, perhaps even only a few days - not supporting longer extension

LeinsterDub · 22-10-2019 09:52PM

liamtech wrote: »

SKy saying France only supports short technical extension, perhaps even only a few days - not supporting longer extension

Does the Benn Act allow Johnson to accept an extension shorted than January?

GM228 · 22-10-2019 09:56PM

liamtech wrote: »

SKy saying France only supports short technical extension, perhaps even only a few days - not supporting longer extension

That was the opinion of the French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian in the French Parliament earlier today (not the French president) before the events in the HoC and before Tusk's recommendation.

https://twitter.com/LCP/status/1186652125813792769?s=19

GM228 · 22-10-2019 09:58PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Does the Benn Act allow Johnson to accept an extension shorted than January?

Yes, though Parliament have a veto on it.

Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

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