Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Mr.Nice Guy · 22-10-2019 08:31PM

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1186718369342509059

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1186720573616996353

Doesn't sound like the EU will be doing anything dramatic.

RickBlaine · 22-10-2019 08:33PM

Agreeing to the 31st Jan deadline as per the Benn Act is the most neutral thing they can do.

Joe_ Public · 22-10-2019 08:34PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Seeing as the MPs in the House of Commons are quoting dantes inferno amongst other things, can I describe this whole brexit mess in the way Mr Evans who was a member of Robert scotts failed journey to the South Pole in 1912(or 14) when he said "I'm just going outside, and I may be some time." I don't know about anyone else but for something most of no hand act or part in I'm utterly **** sick of brexit at this stage in 2019.

Titus Oates!

I'm sure many agree with you. I think its fascinating personally but does really need to move onto election if thats obvious next step.

hotmail.com · 22-10-2019 08:38PM

Dying in a ditch will be forgotten.

Itssoeasy · 22-10-2019 08:38PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Titus Oates!

I'm sure many agree with you. I think its fascinating personally but does really need to move onto election if thats obvious next step.

Was it ? Well my apologies to the family of mr Evans for killing off before he did and to the members of this thread for an error. Ah yes hadn't Oates feet become completely frostbiten and he just had enough(can't blame him when you read about the voyage) ?

Danzy · 22-10-2019 08:38PM

Duane Dibbley wrote: »

What possible amendments would the EU accept besides a referendum on the deal?

There isn't a reason to think the EU would accept a ref on the deal.

Talk from Govts in the EU is a short technical extension so he can get it passed.

Spanish Eyes · 22-10-2019 08:39PM

I may be totally wrong, but I doubt anyone really WANTS to leave the EU at all.

The posturing and drama is for their constituents, who may be equally daft, and fed by the Daily Mail but there we are.

I am getting the feeling that leaving the EU is just a totally ridiculous thing now, but if they slowly negotiate over a few years well then it might happen with mutual consent.

BarryD2 · 22-10-2019 08:40PM

I suppose the question is now: assuming a decent extension is given, will the Tories & Labour now take their chances and agree on a general election. That might well sort the matter out one way or the other or somewhere in between. It'd be a very interesting election, all bets would be off - not sure if any sitting MP would feel entirely safe, including the bums up North.

Itssoeasy · 22-10-2019 08:40PM

RickBlaine wrote: »

Agreeing to the 31st Jan deadline as per the Benn Act is the most neutral thing they can do.

Well yes because now the brexiteer crowd can't say this extension was forced on them by the EU given that it's a House of Commons date.

Letwin_Larry · 22-10-2019 08:42PM

it seems to me that both sides consider the other side to be complete shysters. (can you blame them?)
trust has completely broken down with each side expecting the other to shaft them given the slightest opportunity.
a bit like one of wildlife docs with 2 reptiles locked in a battle to the death.

is_that_so · 22-10-2019 08:43PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

I suppose the question is now: assuming a decent extension is given, will the Tories & Labour now take their chances and agree on a general election. That might well sort the matter out one way or the other or somewhere in between. It'd be a very interesting election, all bets would be off - not sure if any sitting MP would feel entirely safe, including the bums up North.

Corbyn said that Labour would work with them on the amount of time. That to me is almost a tacit acceptance that the game is all but up.

briany · 22-10-2019 08:43PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1186718369342509059

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1186720573616996353

Doesn't sound like the EU will be doing anything dramatic.

Yeah, except the very act of offering a short technical extension or a longer one has an effect on the attitude of UK politicians toward getting a deal done. If the extension is shorter, UK politicians will feel a greater pressure to act. This means that the EU should decide very carefully.

Spanish Eyes · 22-10-2019 08:44PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

Dying in a ditch will be forgotten.

Just like the anti democratic Proroguation of Parliament which was not used to good effect either, And the so called Anti Democratic Backstop and so on.

It is all about what happens TODAY, and all else is forgotten really. Am I mad thinking this?

is_that_so · 22-10-2019 08:46PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just like the anti democratic Proroguation of Parliament which was not used to good effect either, And the so called Anti Democratic Backstop and so on.

It is all about what happens TODAY, and all else is forgotten really. Am I mad thinking this?

Yeah they are finally closer to passing the deal than they have ever been.

Joe_ Public · 22-10-2019 08:48PM

is_that_so wrote: »

Corbyn said that Labour would work with them on the amount of time. That to me is almost a tacit acceptance that the game is all but up.

Not way i would read it. Just corbyn rubbing it in and taking little bit of high moral ground when it was going, knowing fully that johnson would reject it anyway. Even if he accepted, wouldnt change much, just push big decisions a bit further down the line which suits opposition well enough. Allow lot more scrutiny of bill too and juicy stories of ecomonic disadvantage to emerge!

am i bovvered · 22-10-2019 08:49PM

briany wrote: »

A) That's not how the border poll is supposed to work. It's supposed to be called at a time when it's fairly clear that a majority in the North would want unification. It's not a mechanism to allow the UK to exit the EU smoothly.

Things up north are a bit politically charged at the moment. I don't think this would be the best backdrop for a border poll.

C) Brexit was brought about without hardly a thought given to NI and the peace process. There is no easy answer to the questions being posed to the Brexit movement. They made their bed. Now they must lie in it.

This is such an important post.
Let’s not let a rushed UI vite become our version of this Brexit nightmare !
There needs to be a clear consensus look at the damage 52% to 48% does to a society.

Danzy · 22-10-2019 08:51PM

Relief in Brussels and Dublin tonight that the first vote on it had a 30 vote majority.

prawnsambo · 22-10-2019 08:51PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Seems to be a flextention is likely.

i.e EU gives until end of January but UK can leave any time up to then if it approves the deal.

This also opens up election space + time to get it through.

The current extension is flexible. Whenever the WA is ratified, it becomes operative on the first of the next month. The previous one was also flexible but with different parameters to suit the situation that existed then.

is_that_so · 22-10-2019 08:53PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Not way i would read it. Just corbyn rubbing it in and taking little bit of high moral ground when it was going, knowing fully that johnson would reject it anyway. Even if he accepted, wouldnt change much, just push big decisions a bit further down the line which suits opposition well enough. Allow lot more scrutiny of bill too and juicy stories of ecomonic disadvantage to emerge!

Nah, he was onto a loser once Boris came back with a deal, even more so now that it has "passed". It's face saving at this stage and offering to be part of the solution and not being the problem. I think the message of the first vote was this is all but over or will be once we've taken a good look at it.

Joe_ Public · 22-10-2019 08:56PM

is_that_so wrote: »

Nah, he was onto a loser once Boris came back with a deal, even more so now that it has "passed". It's face saving at this stage and offering to be part of the solution and not being the problem. I think the message of the first vote was this is all but over or will be once we've taken a good look at it.

Ok. Thats your view.

jimmycrackcorm · 22-10-2019 08:57PM

devnull wrote: »

Just heard John Redwood talking about no such thing as no deal as its either having a withdrawal agreement or not and not no deal.

Then there is the number 10 source saying that Boris is ringing round leaders to tell them not to grant extension which clearly is frustrating the Benn act?

But starting to think most of this number 18 source stuff is a variation on dead cat strategy being used as cover for the real reasons for things.

One person I'm sure he isn't running is Angela Merkel after the previous leak. Because I think she did really tell him NI needed to stay within EU customs and Leo then sold the idea.

joe40 · 22-10-2019 08:58PM

Going slightly off topic, but I was just contrasting the way the Irish government has treated NI and the way Boris Johnson did.
Ultimately a fine Gael government has zero interest in pursuing a United Ireland agenda or a republican agenda, despite what UK gutter press might suggest.
Most of Ireland economic activity is south and east very little in border regions so I think they would have coped with border infrastructure better than the all Ireland negative impact of a "no deal exit".
But imo the Irish government put concerns of the gfa and the welfare of NI residents above the economic hit Ireland would take in "no deal scenario"
That is massively to their credit and supported by all parties.
Compare that to Boris promising the Moon and stars to the DUP and then selling them out.
Why can't the DUP not see there is no interest in Irish politics, of forcing a UI. Why can they not see the benefits of closer cooperation with the south instead of this built in animosity.
They fawn after the British establishment and the Tory party, who blatantly despise them. Kinda sad to see really.

Enzokk · 22-10-2019 09:02PM

This is an interesting tweet,

https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1186594060234039302?s=20

So the EU will not hasten the UK in making a decision, it is up to the PM to get his deal through.

As for the votes tonight, Johnson and No.10 has again been shown up and the likes of Kuenssberg that parroted the news that if they would lose the vote program motion they would pull the bill has been shown up for the propaganda machines they are being used for.

As for No.10 claiming this was a vote for his deal, it is this kind of dishonesty that makes my blood boil. Yes there were votes to just get it done but others were to get it to the stage where they could add amendments to the bill as well. It is dishonest, in fact it is lying, to claim this is a vote for his deal. But what do you expect of a liar and cheat running the country.

I am really concerned for the UK, even if we are relatively shielded from the effect of Brexit with the deal we have agreed, but the ordinary person who has been led astray by liars who will suffer the most. It is not fair that these people should suffer because MPs are too freaking lazy to read the bill or are tired of Brexit. They should not suffer because the millionaires in government will be fine and their friends will make a killing from deregulation.

At the end of the day we will suffer as well if the UK suffers long term. They are still an important partner of ours and we should want to see them as strong as possible, but they are making it very hard to root for them to turn this doomed ship around.

liamtech · 22-10-2019 09:05PM

With the Deal bill technically being passed (but not the timetable) - Is it not permissible for the EU Parliament to ratify on their end????

Where is Guy Verhofstadt on this i wonder? - he was rightly infuriated earlier

Letwin_Larry · 22-10-2019 09:07PM

the EU leadership must be collectively tearing its hair out at this stage.

devnull · 22-10-2019 09:07PM

liamtech wrote: »

With the Deal bill technically being passed (but not the timetable) - Is it not permissible for the EU Parliament to ratify on their end????

The deal hasn't been passed, it's just gone to the next stage.

prawnsambo · 22-10-2019 09:07PM

liamtech wrote: »

With the Deal bill technically being passed (but not the timetable) - Is it not permissible for the EU Parliament to ratify on their end????

Where is Guy Verhofstadt on this i wonder? - he was rightly infuriated earlier

It isn't technically or any other way passed. It has just got through to committee stage. It has a lot of travelling to go yet.

liamtech · 22-10-2019 09:08PM

With the Deal bill technically being passed (but not the timetable) - Is it not permissible for the EU Parliament to ratify on their end????

Where is Guy Verhofstadt on this i wonder? - he was rightly infuriating
Oh there he is

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1186733216251691009

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">You’re all thinking: another extension. I am thinking: another three weeks listening to Farage <a href="https://t.co/Cob2wPmghP">pic.twitter.com/Cob2wPmghP</a></p>— Guy Verhofstadt (@guyverhofstadt) <a href="

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1186733216251691009?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October

22, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

prawnsambo · 22-10-2019 09:12PM

liamtech wrote: »

With the Deal bill technically being passed (but not the timetable) - Is it not permissible for the EU Parliament to ratify on their end????

Where is Guy Verhofstadt on this i wonder? - he was rightly infuriating
Oh there he is

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1186733216251691009

A bills stages through the Houses:

HoC
1st reading
2nd reading
Committee stage
Report stage
3rd reading

HoL
1st reading
2nd reading
Committee stage
Report stage
3rd reading

Royal Assent.

A Dub in Glasgo · 22-10-2019 09:12PM

liamtech wrote: »

With the Deal bill technically being passed (but not the timetable) - Is it not permissible for the EU Parliament to ratify on their end????

Where is Guy Verhofstadt on this i wonder? - he was rightly infuriated earlier

This is misreading the vote, the deal has gone to the amendment stage. It is very possible that the HoC amends the legislation that is not compatible with the deal agreed with the EU therefore it is not the agreed WA

Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

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