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Heavyweight Boxing

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    #3902
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    normanoffside wrote: »
    I don't think doping was even illegal back then, it certainly wasn't tested.

    You could say even if they ere taking stuff it was fair game as there were no rules against it.

    I kind of agree. If they were all able to avail, away they go...

    Jaysus, I wouldn’t begrudge then some help...


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    #3903
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    normanoffside wrote: »
    Yep, the commentary on the video I posted referred to Tyson spitting from Rooney because he didn't see the point of training for 12 round fights when he was blowing everyone away in 2 rounds.

    That was probably the difference, but Douglas' pace in the 9th and 10th was still impressive.

    I made similar points many times. The second Rooney went, Tyson started his downfall. It was apparent in his 1989 Bruno fight. That little bit of spark and speed seemed lost...Rooney just “worked” for Tyson...everything about them clicked..


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    #3904
    selectamatic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭selectamatic


    normanoffside wrote: »
    What i Noticed about the Tyson Douglas highlights was the sheer pace of it. Douglas was still fighting like a lightweight in the 10th.
    It's not like that any more. Modern day heavies are bigger but definitely not as fit.

    This is one of the main reasons I find Usyks venture into the HW division so interesting. He can possibly bring this level of fitness back and it's going to be very interesting to see how the big guys deal with it.


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    #3905
    normanoffside
    Registered Users Posts: 9,982 ✭✭✭normanoffside


    selectamatic wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsuhRz3cpiI


    coincidentally this was posted on youtube yesterday. It's a good interesting and reasonably balanced watch if you've 20 minutes to spare

    :pac: I posted that yesterday!


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    #3906
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    selectamatic wrote: »
    This is one of the main reasons I find Usyks venture into the HW division so interesting. He can possibly bring this level of fitness back and it's going to be very interesting to see how the big guys deal with it.

    I think they’ll deal with it by putting him on his ass


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    #3907
    selectamatic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭selectamatic


    normanoffside wrote: »
    :pac: I posted that yesterday!

    Dunno how I missed that.

    It's definitely a good watch.
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    I think they’ll deal with it by putting him on his ass

    Time will tell.

    His potential success will most definitely hinge greatly on whether his chin is up to scratch.


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    #3908
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    selectamatic wrote: »
    Dunno how I missed that.

    It's definitely a good watch.



    Time will tell.

    His potential success will most definitely hinge greatly on whether his chin is up to scratch.

    I don’t think any hw chin can match the power. Obviously some can take it better.

    Every fight would look like Haye vs Valeuev. Did we include him on the list of shocking champions?


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    #3909
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Every fight would look like Haye vs Valeuev. Did we include him on the list of shocking champions?

    Which one?


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    #3910
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    walshb wrote: »
    Which one?

    HAHAAAAAA Walshie that was a great hit! Haye gets some credit to be fair he was a very good cw. Not to dip too far from topic but I could see only Holyfield and Usyk beating him at cw


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    #3911
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    HAHAAAAAA Walshie that was a great hit! Haye gets some credit to be fair he was a very good cw. Not to dip too far from topic but I could see only Holyfield and Usyk beating him at cw

    He was a 215 lbs CW on fight night..

    He’d present real problems for both at CW alright...

    Holyfield was the older CW, up to 190 max....


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    #3912
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    walshb wrote: »
    He was a 215 lbs CW on fight night..

    He’d present real problems for both at CW alright...

    Holyfield was the older CW, up to 190 max....

    Course he would but I reckon both beat him. EH being able to step up to HW would indicate that we’re they both at 200 (to step up on the night) he’d have the power and grit to take Haye.


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    #3913
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Course he would but I reckon both beat him. EH being able to step up to HW would indicate that we’re they both at 200 (to step up on the night) he’d have the power and grit to take Haye.

    Agreed. Forget semantics. Haye and Holyfield were of similar natural size. Holyfield of the early 90s @ 205-210 lbs beats any version of Haye. Far too polished, as well as being a damaging enough hitter to take Haye out...

    Strictly at CW, where Evander was smaller, Haye poses more problems...


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    #3914
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    walshb wrote: »
    Agreed. Forget semantics. Haye and Holyfield were of similar natural size. Holyfield of the early 90s @ 205-210 lbs beats any version of Haye. Far too polished, as well as being a damaging enough hitter to take Haye out...

    Strictly at CW, where Evander was smaller, Haye poses more problems...

    Yes but he had to be smaller due to weight limit. He’d have been much more comfortable 10 lbs heavier. Hayes angles and speed make it difficult but I think Holyfield is ignorant enough to walk through that, keep out of the way of the worst of it and get to him late in from round 8 it’s all Evander.

    Incidentally this is the 4000th post on this thread. Turned out to be a great discussion and debate. Long may that continue


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    #3915
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Agreed. Yes, Evander at 200 lbs would win. I was more basing it off Evander’s actual showings when he campaigned at CW in 1986/1987/1988 years; Haye gives that Holyfield issues. Holyfield looked far stronger come 1989 and 1990 and 1991 when 200 + lbs, and that bit more mature.


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    #3916
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    walshb wrote: »
    Agreed. Yes, Evander at 200 lbs would win. I was more basing it off Evander’s actual showings when he campaigned at CW in 1986/1987/1988 years; Haye gives that Holyfield issues. Holyfield looked far stronger come 1989 and 1990 and 1991 when 200 + lbs, and that bit more mature.

    But would Haye minus 10-15 lbs give him issues? Hard to say.


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    #3917
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    But would Haye minus 10-15 lbs give him issues? Hard to say.

    If the 1986/1987/1988 Evander is allowed weigh up to 200 lbs and meets the CW Haye, then Haye is in the ring at 215 lbs...

    Holyfield had a good career at CW, but it gets overrated. He didn't fight all that much great quality, apart from a far shorter and older Qawi....it was life and death in fight 1...

    He moved to heavy late 1988 if I recall. He was still maturing, and was barely above 200 lbs on his debut. Holyfield at 205 vs Bowe was a special fighter. That Holyfield eats Haye at HW, but, that is as much to do with Holyfield being at his physical-mature best, as it is to do with him being 5 lbs north of CW.

    Haye at 200 lbs and Holyfield at 200lbs is interesting. Holyfield I believe wins, but Haye can cause issues to the yet to physically peak Holyfield


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    #3918
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    walshb wrote: »
    If the 1986/1987/1988 Evander is allowed weigh up to 200 lbs and meets the CW Haye, then Haye is in the ring at 215 lbs...

    Holyfield had a good career at CW, but it gets overrated. He didn't fight all that much great quality, apart from a far shorter and older Qawi....it was life and death in fight 1...

    He moved to heavy late 1988 if I recall. He was still maturing, and was barely above 200 lbs on his debut. Holyfield at 205 vs Bowe was a special fighter. That Holyfield eats Haye at HW, but, that is as much to do with Holyfield being at his physical-mature best, as it is to do with him being 5 lbs north of CW.

    Haye at 200 lbs and Holyfield at 200lbs is interesting. Holyfield I believe wins, but Haye can cause issues to the yet to physically peak Holyfield

    Happy enough with all of that. Here’s one, how would the haye fury fight have gone had it happened at that time? My thinking is fury because haye’s body was starting to disintegrate by then


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    #3919
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Happy enough with all of that. Here’s one, how would the haye fury fight have gone had it happened at that time? My thinking is fury because haye’s body was starting to disintegrate by then

    I remember thinking Haye would find the chin for the KO. I kind of still think that.

    My view on Fury kind of oscillates. There's talents I like, and there is just a lack of talent as well, and I really believe that any power hitter that can connect knocks him out. Haye could bang, and delivered really fast and heavy shots.

    Size wize, Wlad-Haye is similar to Haye-Fury, however, Wlad is a far heavier hitter than Fury, as well as being far better technically in delivering his shots; Wlad kept Haye honest, and on the back-foot the whole night. Against Fury, I cannot see that Haye being that cautious and unsure.....juts can't. Fury has nothing to really hurt him with, and this sees Haye move forward, take chances, and unload.

    I think Haye's combination of speed, power and foot speed would have seen him get to Fury rather easily to knock him clean out...


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    #3920
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I posted below on June 15, 2013:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84888685

    "I think Haye murders Tyson. And I respect Tyson and believe he's a real trier. He has talent and can punch a bit, but for me I think that chin is a bit too shaky for a fast and clean and heavy handed Haye."


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    #3921
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    walshb wrote: »
    I posted below on June 15, 2013:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84888685

    I think Haye murders Tyson. And I respect Tyson and believe he's a real trier. He has talent and can punch a bit, but for me I think that chin is a bit too shaky for a fast and clean and heavy handed Haye.

    Hmm not sure I agree it would have been so easy. Did he ko anyone at hw? I’m not counting mark de moiri or that poor bewildered Italian guy. I see why you think haye can land on him. Not a good match up for fury.


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    #3922
    Mantis Toboggan
    Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Mantis Toboggan


    I'd say 8/10 Fury beats him.

    Free Palestine 🇵🇸



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    #3923
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Hmm not sure I agree it would have been so easy. Did he ko anyone at hw? I’m not counting mark de moiri or that poor bewildered Italian guy. I see why you think haye can land on him. Not a good match up for fury.

    I wasn't factoring in how he did or didn't KO. My view was that he was fast and explosive and heavy handed enough to KO Fury, who I believe does not react well to a good solid shot, and even if he survives a scary moment or two, Haye likely can quickly follow up to close the show...


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    #3924
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Mantis Toboggan wrote: »
    I'd say 8/10 Fury beats him.

    Back then I don't think that was the overall view with those on here...


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    #3925
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Haye was at one stage 6-1 on to win. Fury at 4-1...


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    #3926
    selectamatic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭selectamatic


    Mantis Toboggan wrote: »
    I'd say 8/10 Fury beats him.

    Wasn't Fury getting dropped by Steve Cunningham the fight prior to the proposed Haye bout and before that he had gone 12rds in a truly terrible bout with Kevin Johnson.

    He was found of getting sucked into brawling every now and then during fights and he really didn't look as sharp as he would become in late 2014 moving into 2015.


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    #3927
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,641 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    selectamatic wrote: »
    Wasn't Fury getting dropped by Steve Cunningham the fight prior to the proposed Haye bout and before that he had gone 12rds in a truly terrible bout with Kevin Johnson.

    He was found of getting sucked into brawling every now and then during fights and he really didn't look as sharp as he would become in late 2014 moving into 2015.



    Fury was a different fighter back them , he used to just wade forward and back himself to knock you out, If you look at his record he had a loads of knockouts before fighting Cunningham,

    He said plenty of times that it was the Cunningham fight that made him change his style, He's on record as saying it made him realise anyone can be knocked out so he started to use his boxing ability that he says he always had but chose to scrap instead,


    I think he Fury still con's people, You always hear he has no power then he gets in with guys like Wlad and Wilder catches them with a couple of stiff jabs and shots early and it keeps them honest , His style is keeping on his toe's and moving he rarely plants his feet these days for big shots,


    I think he beats Haye 9 times out of 10 ,


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    #3928
    normanoffside
    Registered Users Posts: 9,982 ✭✭✭normanoffside


    I see UKAD have just announced a 4 year ban for someone who fought Joe Joyce 18 months ago.

    He was caught with ‘multiple substances’ but this is the first we hear of it.

    We’ll be waiting a long time before we hear anything else about Whyte.


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    #3929
    selectamatic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭selectamatic


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Fury was a different fighter back them

    Ya that was the point I was kinda making, had the Haye bout went ahead he would have been trying to implement his post Cunningham style change in what would have been the toughest fight of his career. A tough task.

    From what I've seen of Fury I do agree that he has just about enough power to get by in the current climate but that said nearly all of the top guys are pretty chinny. Wilder hates getting hit as does Joshua and ditto Wlad so Fury has enough to at least make them think. With most of the other guys his height, movement and reach can keep him out of harms way.

    I'd be thinking roughly 50% of his pre Cunningham fight KO wins came around about rd5 where most of his limited opposition would have been effectively spent.

    But yes he certainly has enough power and mass behind his shots when he plants his feet to drop journey men with relative ease, with the exception of journey men noted for their ability to take a punch a la Kevin Johnson etc.

    These early ko's were generally 6 round guys who were pretty terrible or they were simply exhausted by Fury using his physical attributes to wear them down. Make them overreach, counter, clinch and lean.

    This simple and effective plan has gotten Fury many a win and it was normally when he strayed from this that he encountered problems in the early parts of his career.


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    #3930
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    selectamatic wrote: »
    Ya that was the point I was kinda making, had the Haye bout went ahead he would have been trying to implement his post Cunningham style change in what would have been the toughest fight of his career. A tough task.

    From what I've seen of Fury I do agree that he has just about enough power to get by in the current climate but that said nearly all of the top guys are pretty chinny. Wilder hates getting hit as does Joshua and ditto Wlad so Fury has enough to at least make them think. With most of the other guys his height, movement and reach can keep him out of harms way.

    I'd be thinking roughly 50% of his pre Cunningham fight KO wins came around about rd5 where most of his limited opposition would have been effectively spent.

    But yes he certainly has enough power and mass behind his shots when he plants his feet to drop journey men with relative ease, with the exception of journey men noted for their ability to take a punch a la Kevin Johnson etc.

    These early ko's were generally 6 round guys who were pretty terrible or they were simply exhausted by Fury using his physical attributes to wear them down. Make them overreach, counter, clinch and lean.

    This simple and effective plan has gotten Fury many a win and it was normally when he strayed from this that he encountered problems in the early parts of his career.

    I think this post is pretty much spot on. Well put together on old fury. I’d gauge him 6-7/10 times to beat Haye. Haye was waning then too the Wlad fight took a lot out of him. I think fury’s mind games and disrespect we’re getting to him too.
    I think the more modern peak fury would do well countering him but I think the game plan would need to be adapted to clinch a lot more and use weight to tire Haye.


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    #3931
    Morrison J
    Registered Users Posts: 3,853 ✭✭✭Morrison J


    Wouldve picked Fury over Haye with a fair amount of confidence tbh. Haye had zero inside game. Fury would put his body on Haye, tire him out and take him apart imo. Only chance Haye would have would be to catch Fury coming in which is very difficult with Fury's size and head movement.

    Actually a strange fight in that the much taller guy would have the advantages in the inside and the smaller guy (Haye) would probably have more success picking shots with his hand speed from the outside.


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