Heavyweight Boxing

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

But the problem is Toney was NEVER a great heavy weight


He was past it by the time he fought at heavy weigh, So how can you say he would beat a Prim Mike Tyson at the weight ?


I understand talking about heavy weights from different times fighting each other and wondering how it would go but Toney was never a great heavy weight ,

Jaysus, did you not read the point that I made about Toney at HW.....

I never said he was a great HW....

I said at HW his style would cause Tyson issues.....styles....styles...

I'd take the Toney from the Holyfield fight, or even the CW version v Jirov to cause serious issues to any version of Mike....

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Sorry, he beat all that was in his era

Apart from Buster Douglas.

And Holyfield, twice.

And Lewis*

*Yeah he was past it then, granted.

Just find bashing Joe Louis to make Tyson look artificially better very very odd behaviour. Thankfully you're in a minority of one.

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Apart from Buster Douglas.

And Holyfield, twice.

And Lewis*

*Yeah he was past it then, granted.

Just find bashing Joe Louis to make Tyson look artificially better very very odd behaviour. Thankfully you're in a minority of one.

Where did I bash Joe

I said bum of the month club, a well known talk back then.....

Now, are you going to reply on Patterson, a blown up MW, who was a very weak champion...oh, but Liston beat him, so that clears Liston...

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Where did I bash Joe

I said bum of the month club, a well known talk back then.....

Now, are you going to reply on Patterson, a blown up MW, who was a very weak champion...oh, but Liston beat him, so that clears Liston...

Patterson was an Olympic gold medalist, vicious left hook, quick, bobbed and weaved but came out of a terrible era for HW boxing. Weak though yeah. But heavyweights weren't that big then. Marciano was 5ft 10 and 13 stone. 49-0, 43 KOs.

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Patterson was an Olympic gold medalist, vicious left hook, quick, bobbed and weaved but came out of a terrible era for HW boxing. Weak though yeah. But heavyweights weren't that big then. Marciano was 5ft 10 and 13 stone. 49-0, 43 KOs.

Patterson was what he was.

He is historically known as one of the weakest HW champs ever....

All Tyson's victims from the 1980s would beat him....

It's getting ridiculous here with you slating all Mike's victims, yet holding Patterson up as someone who is clearly more quality....

Mantis Toboggan

lads, have ye nothing better for doing on a Friday morning rather that going around in circles.

walshb

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

lads, have ye nothing better for doing on a Friday morning rather that going around in circles.

I have nothing better....:P

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

All Tyson's victims from the 1980s would beat him....

Thats fantasy stuff, we've no idea if thats true. Thats not how boxers are rated.

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

lads, have ye nothing better for doing on a Friday morning rather that going around in circles.

Have you nothing better for doing on a Friday morning rather that read posts from people going around in circles!?

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Thats fantasy stuff, we've no idea if thats true. Thats not how boxers are rated.



Have you nothing better for doing on a Friday morning rather that read posts from people going around in circles!?

Yes, it is fantasy. I’d still back them, though. He was too small, and had no chin. They’d pulverise him...P4p Floyd was very good

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Patterson was what he was.

He is historically known as one of the weakest HW champs ever....

All Tyson's victims from the 1980s would beat him....

It's getting ridiculous here with you slating all Mike's victims, yet holding Patterson up as someone who is clearly more quality....

You really think all the bums Tyson beat in the 80's beat Patterson come on that's just silly ,
Mike first fight was what 1985 and his first 15 fights where against absolute nobody's , His 16th fight was against Jaco who had beaten Ruddock but had already lost 6 times himself,


You really think all them 16 guys beat Olympic and world champion Patterson ? I now Patterson won the Middle weight gold but he beat the Heavy weight silver medallist from the same year twice as a pro,


He wasn't the greatest by any stretch i'll give you that but to say all the bums Tyson fought beat him is just wrong,

The Nal

While we're on the topic of fantasy, would've been interested to see Patterson if he was a bit heavier. Cus trained so very similar style to Mike. That leaping left hook was beautiful.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

You really think all the bums Tyson beat in the 80's beat Patterson come on that's just silly ,
Mike first fight was what 1985 and his first 15 fights where against absolute nobody's , His 16th fight was against Jaco who had beaten Ruddock but had already lost 6 times himself,


You really think all them 16 guys beat Olympic and world champion Patterson ? I now Patterson won the Middle weight gold but he beat the Heavy weight silver medallist from the same year twice as a pro,


He wasn't the greatest by any stretch i'll give you that but to say all the bums Tyson fought beat him is just wrong,

Patterson was 190 lbs soaking wet for chrissake. He'd be giving away 30 lbs and several inches to most of the top 80s HWs. Plenty could easily find his chin, with 30 lbs on him. Liston, who would not be a huge HW in the 1980s blasted him away with ease....

Seriously, someone back me up here.....

This is getting silly now......

Floyd would get knocked out by big men such as Tucker and Bruno and Smith and Pinklon and Ruddock and others. He's too damn small.

Edit: Just realized. No, not all Tyson's victims beat Floyd. I didn't mean to interpret that, but all Mike's wins during his championship reign, which was mostly the 1980s, yes, thay all beat Floyd. Too big...I should have stressed this.

No way Floyd beats Tucker, Thomas, Smith, Berbick, Bruno, Holmes, Tubbs.......no way he beats Ruddock either, or Douglas....

They'd all dwarf him, and beat him up.

NoviGlitzko

The Nal wrote: »

Apart from Buster Douglas.

And Holyfield, twice.

And Lewis*

*Yeah he was past it then, granted.

Just find bashing Joe Louis to make Tyson look artificially better very very odd behaviour. Thankfully you're in a minority of one.

Tyson was past it when D'Amato died and Kevin Rooney left his corner. His style went from movement-based to bulldozer very quickly. We'll never know how great he could have become if he kept his head together, but Tyson in his youth when hungry & focused is the best HW I've seen. I understand that you are judged by who you beat, but it's not Tyson's fault nobody could match him in his early years.

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Patterson was 190 lbs soaking wet for chrissake. He'd be giving away 30 lbs and several inches to most of the top 80s HWs. Plenty could easily find his chin, with 30 lbs on him. Liston, who would not be a huge HW in the 1980s blasted him away with ease....

Seriously, someone back me up here.....

This is getting silly now......

Floyd would get knocked out by big men such as Tucker and Bruno and Smith and Pinklon and others. He's too damn small.

Yes agree. Weak chin and was hit a lot.

I do think Pattersons contribution to the HW division was significant though. Brought a different style and legitimacy to the division coming from a lighter weight and the Olympics.

And yeah even Liston would be small ish now. There was surprise from a lot of people at the time seeing Ali bigger than him when they faced off before the bell.

NoviGlitzko wrote: »

Tyson was past it when D'Amato died and Kevin Rooney left his corner. His style went from movement-based to bulldozer very quickly. We'll never know how great he could have become if he kept his head together, but Tyson in his youth when hungry & focused is the best HW I've seen. I understand that you are judged by who you beat, but it's not Tyson's fault nobody could match him in his early years.

Absolutely. The most excited fighter I've ever seen. Haven't stayed up late to watch anyone as much, always entertaining.

I'm really coming from a purely historical view. Not who could beat who, what he could've done etc.

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

While we're on the topic of fantasy, would've been interested to see Patterson if he was a bit heavier. Cus trained so very similar style to Mike. That leaping left hook was beautiful.

Bit heavier wouldn't make too much difference. He was weak, and had no real chin.....

P4P he was very good, but this man v man. He also fought timid and scared when up against it vs Liston.

Liston was not huge, as regards what came after. He was bigger than Floyd, and he bullied him easily....Liston made look more scary than he really was

He met a bigger and taller and stronger Ali, (stronger than Floyd), and he was exposed...

Liston for me doesn't do all that well in a fantasy scenario vs other greats....

I see him getting brutalized vs the 90s big men, vs Foreman, vs. Tyson....

Liston does well against the smaller greats like Louis, Marciano and Dempsey.

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

And yeah even Liston would be small ish now. There was surprise from a lot of people at the time seeing Ali bigger than him when they faced off before the bell.

Yes, I just posted on this, and apparently Liston commented on Ali's size when they were together.....it bothered him.

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Liston does well against the smaller greats like Louis, Marciano and Dempsey.

Yeah. Which is all he had. They weren't big men. Even Jack Johnson. 6ft, 14 stone. Marciano 5ft 10, Dempsey 6ft 1. Joe Louis was big at 6ft 2. Liston changed it in a way, fighters had to be bigger and stronger. Although Liston ended up being fairly pathetic.

Anyway, heres the GOAT

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Patterson was 190 lbs soaking wet for chrissake. He'd be giving away 30 lbs and several inches to most of the top 80s HWs. Plenty could easily find his chin, with 30 lbs on him. Liston, who would not be a huge HW in the 1980s blasted him away with ease....

Seriously, someone back me up here.....

This is getting silly now......

.

Edit: Just realized. No, not all Tyson's victims beat Floyd. I didn't mean to interpret that, but all Mike's wins during his championship reign, which was mostly the 1980s, yes, thay all beat Floyd. Too big...I should have stressed this.

No way Floyd beats Tucker, Thomas, Smith, Berbick, Bruno, Holmes, Tubbs.......no way he beats Ruddock either, or Douglas....

They'd all dwarf him, and beat him up.

I actually agree when you say "Floyd would get knocked out by big men such as Tucker and Bruno and Smith and Pinklon and Ruddock and others. He's too damn small "


My post was in reply to you saying all the men Tyson beat in the 80's would be beat Patterson,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I actually agree when you say "Floyd would get knocked out by big men such as Tucker and Bruno and Smith and Pinklon and Ruddock and others. He's too damn small "


My post was in reply to you saying all the men Tyson beat in the 80's would be beat Patterson,

Yes, and I corrected that...not all Tyson’s 80s victims..

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Yes, and I corrected that...not all Tyson’s 80s victims..

I can live with that,
Could to have you back by the way always good topics to be discussed

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I can live with that,
Could to have you back by the way always good topics to be discussed

Agreed, but I wish more input and breakdown from some discussions, other than "No, that's nonsense." Not referring to anyone specifically....

But take the Tyson-Toney fight, which I actually broke down based on them as fighters; no replies other than Toney wouldn't beat him...

I'd like to hear why/how Mike beats Toney....

Strengths/weaknesses/areas......

I think it makes for a brilliant style match up....rock solid/defensively sound relaxed as fook Toney against a swarming killer.....
Areas like output and fitness intrigue me. Toney had a seriously brilliant boxing-cardio engine. Also had excellent volume when needed.

Tyson set a great pace, but punch-wise, he wasn't as voluminous as Toney; Mike like to clinch a lot and throw singles, doubles, more than free flowing combinations...



Same for other matches...

I detailed why I believe Tyson is bad for Ali, and some agreed, and those who didn't, just disagreed with no reasoning or logic, and no reasons why Ali beats Mike...

The forum has a lot of posts, but is lacking in detailed analyses of some topics....

The Nal

Ali sums it up himself from 3 mind 15. Simple as that really.

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Ali sums it up himself from 3 mind 15. Simple as that really.

Ali not trusting his chin!!!!

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Agreed, but I wish more input and breakdown from some discussions, other than "No, that's nonsense." Not referring to anyone specifically....

But take the Tyson-Toney fight, which I actually broke down based on them as fighters; no replies other than Toney wouldn't beat him...

I'd like to hear why/how Mike beats Toney....

Strengths/weaknesses/areas......

I think it makes for a brilliant style match up....rock solid/defensively sound relaxed as fook Toney against a swarming killer.....
Areas like output and fitness intrigue me. Toney had a seriously brilliant boxing-cardio engine. Also had excellent volume when needed.

Tyson set a great pace, but punch-wise, he wasn't as voluminous as Toney; Mike like to clinch a lot and throw singles, doubles, more than free flowing combinations...



Same for other matches...

I detailed why I believe Tyson is bad for Ali, and some agreed, and those who didn't, just disagreed with no reasoning or logic, and no reasons why Ali beats Mike...

The forum has a lot of posts, but is lacking in detailed analyses of some topics....

ok for arguments sake,


We don't know how Toney's cardio would hold up at heavy weight, By the time he got there in real life he was fat and basically never fought anyone in the top guys to test it,

Also if he put the weight on by muscle would it have slowed down his reflex's and maybe also his gas tank,


Personal I don't think Toney would have taken the punch power of Tyson at heavy weight and Tyson would landed at a some stage ,


Toney was great at fighting in close but " Prime" Tyson speed and power was something he would have never of seen , I think Mike would hurt him

Now I lost interest in Toney late in his career but I only ended up watching his last boxing match before his UFC fight as I wanted to see what shape he was in, He got rocked by a guy called Mathew Greer ,He ended up wining but he was hurt , Now was that because of the weight or because of his years ? I don't know but I think Toney's style worked because of his body shape and weight, I think bigger stronger guys would have got to him and hurt him, ,



That just my opinion no wrong or right as we will never know

walshb

The Toney from Jirov (albeit at CW, but so what) and Holyfield I will take.....

The later version at HW is not beating Tyson...

BTW, of any fighter through history, Toney for me is probably the closest one of the most 'unknockoutable' there is....

His chin was granite, and his defenses and shoulder roll were superb. He wouldn't even get stopped from accumulation....

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

The Toney from Jirov (albeit at CW, but so what) and Holyfield I will take.....

The later version at HW is not beating Tyson...

BTW, of any fighter through history, Toney for me is probably the closest one of the most 'unknockoutable' there is....

His chin was granite, and his defenses and shoulder roll were superb. He wouldn't even get stopped from accumulation....

George Chuvalo too. A punchbag but a tough one.

Toney though, only non decision loss of his career was this.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvme71

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

The Toney from Jirov (albeit at CW, but so what) and Holyfield I will take.....

The later version at HW is not beating Tyson...

BTW, of any fighter through history, Toney for me is probably the closest one of the most 'unknockoutable' there is....

His chin was granite, and his defenses and shoulder roll were superb. He wouldn't even get stopped from accumulation....

I agree that his chin was granite and defence was unreal no one could question that , I just think it wouldn't transfer as well to fighting top dog heavy weights ,


As I said before Toney's body shape was perfect for how he fought in his weight class,


He's one boxer who actually doesn't get the credit he is due from the average punter ,

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

George Chuvalo too. A punchbag but a tough one.

Toney though, only non decision loss of his career was this.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvme71

Chuvalo had a granite chin, but his issue was accumulation. You could TKO him....

Toney, you'd be lucky to land 2-3 in succession on him, and he also took a helluva wallop....

Too cute, tough, defensive, durable and resilient; he had it all, and a born innate fighter. Could box and slug for 12 rds...

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I agree that his chin was granite and defence was unreal no one could question that , I just think it wouldn't transfer as well to fighting top dog heavy weights ,


As I said before Toney's body shape was perfect for how he fought in his weight class,


He's one boxer who actually doesn't get the credit he is due from the average punter ,

Yeah, all the big proper HWs are too much for him, but all points wins.....nobody is stopping the man......

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Yeah, all the big proper HWs are too much for him, but all points wins.....nobody is stopping the man......

Anyone can be ko'd at heavy weight Toney included, Its a tale as old as time itself