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Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

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  • #8282
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Because Labour rebel MPs in leave or knife edge seats are terrified of their constituents reactions if the vote is not delivered ahead of an election...

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1186599924412141569


    It could be that finally those Labour MPs show up to vote for Brexit but I am skeptical as we have been hearing about these 20-30 Labour MPs in Leave areas for a long time now. They have been voting against Brexit all this time so I fail to see why they would start now.

    It will happen I think, but I am a little tired of reading of these Labour Leave MPs and they never seem to appear.


  • #8283
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    JRM really helping things again. Not.

    https://twitter.com/edvaizey/status/1186580857861087232?s=20


  • #8284
    farmchoice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭farmchoice


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Because Labour rebel MPs in leave or knife edge seats are terrified of their constituents reactions if the vote is not delivered ahead of an election...

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1186599924412141569


    she's at it again!! to date laura has got every single prediction on the number of labour rebels wrong, as recently as last Saturday morning she was on the TV predicting in excess of 15 and up to 25.
    it turned out to be 6, up 1 on previous WA vote.



    her source as always is dom cummings or actors on his behalf.


  • #8285
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,230 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Letwin_Larry wrote: »
    personally i feel they are just hell bent on frustrating the referendum vote. that's just my opinion of course (before you all attack me).

    Spot on. The remainers have tried every trick in the book to overturn the result of a democratic vote in which the majority voted to leave.

    It's disgraceful really. The biased refuse to see it. The remainers don't mind because they never accepted the vote.


  • #8286
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,230 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The horse trading is underway for the 2nd vote on the timetable according to the Guardian to get the former Tories over the line
    Soft-Brexit Conservatives could back Boris Johnson’s plan to push through his deal in three days if he agrees to close a loophole that would allow the UK to crash out on World Trade Organization terms at the end of next year, the Guardian’s political team reports.

    It is understood No 10 is preparing to concede on some amendments but is putting pressure on the former Tories not to block the programme motion, arguing this would delay Brexit.

    There are believed to be only a handful of the group of former Tory MPs still threatening to vote with the opposition parties to give parliament more time to scrutinise the bill.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/oct/22/brexit-boris-johnson-deal-leave-eu-live-news


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  • #8287
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Spot on. The remainers have tried every trick in the book to overturn the result of a democratic vote in which the majority voted to leave.

    It's disgraceful really. The biased refuse to see it. The remainers don't mind because they never accepted the vote.

    And the Leavers have tried every trick in the book including multiple blatant lies.

    It's disgraceful really how people were consistently lied to by biased English nationalists. The Leavers don't mind because they never accept the truth.


  • #8288
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The disquiet over NI seems to be ratcheting up doesn't it? Why would SF want the assembly back anyway if theres a chance of it overturning the soft border which would dovetail nicely with their UI plans in the long run?


    https://twitter.com/skydavidblevins/status/1186607660357050369?s=20


  • #8289
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Screw it, if this is the people looking out for their voters let them screw themselves over. I cannot muster any sympathy if this is what voters want.

    https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1186606116567953408?s=20

    Hasn't ready anything of the bill but will vote for it.


  • #8290
    Letwin_Larry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Letwin_Larry


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Spot on. The remainers have tried every trick in the book to overturn the result of a democratic vote in which the majority voted to leave.

    It's disgraceful really. The biased refuse to see it. The remainers don't mind because they never accepted the vote.

    i actually disagree with the Brexit Leave vote. i think they are wrong to leave. but heck that's their decision. that's how the system works. if you dont like the answer, then dont ask the question.

    it's so obvious that there are many remainer MPs who will do anything to overturn that vote. that is their democratic right.

    but if only they could be upfront and honest about it.


  • #8291
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Screw it, if this is the people looking out for their voters let them screw themselves over. I cannot muster any sympathy if this is what voters want.

    https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1186606116567953408?s=20

    Hasn't ready anything of the bill but will vote for it.

    Similar to a former Tory MP (can't remember name) on Newsnight last night who said he wouldn't be able to read it fully but he would vote for it anyway because reasons.


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  • #8292
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    The Customs Union amendment has interesting names on it, some Labour MPs that want to have Brexit done. This could derails the bill if it passed,

    https://twitter.com/theousherwood/status/1186598832613810176?s=20


  • #8293
    liamtech
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭liamtech


    Originally Posted by Letwin_Larry View Post
    personally i feel they are just hell bent on frustrating the referendum vote. that's just my opinion of course (before you all attack me).
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Spot on. The remainers have tried every trick in the book to overturn the result of a democratic vote in which the majority voted to leave.

    It's disgraceful really. The biased refuse to see it. The remainers don't mind because they never accepted the vote.

    DO you realize that a Brexit where you leave the SM and CU, simply doesnt work for the UK? The reason being you have 2 communities in NI, a GFA that says what ever happens, systems need to benefit both communities
    • BoJos deal places a Brexit Border in the Irish sea
    • No Deal places one along the 6 counties

    and as for the Referendum result - leave aside all the lies (this will be easy - great deal - dont worry about the GFA - 350million for the NHS) -

    It was the Equivalent of the Republic having a Referendum on the following

    People of Ireland, do you want to begin Colonizing the Moon in the next 5 years, creating Irelands first Colony by 2025 -

    [] Yes
    [] No

    Whatever you vote for we will impliment


    Its Unicorns and colonies on the moon.
    It was never going to work and doubly so in its current hard LEAVE CU/SM form

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • #8294
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,546 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Spot on. The remainers have tried every trick in the book to overturn the result of a democratic vote in which the majority voted to leave.

    It's disgraceful really. The biased refuse to see it. The remainers don't mind because they never accepted the vote.
    Except it was the hard leavers that actually brought down May's deal. In the first MV 118 Tories and all the DUP voted against it. In the second, 75 Tories and all the DUP and in the third 34 Tories and all the DUP. In all cases, if the so called pro-leave Tory party and the DUP had voted for it, it would have passed.

    Among those who voted against MV3 (not including the DUP) were: Steve Baker, Priti Patel, Andrew Bridgen, Mark Francois, Peter Bone, Adam Afriye, Theresa Villiers, Bill Cash, Christopher Chope, Suella Braverman, Adam Holloway, David Jones, Julian Lewis, Marcus Fysh, John Baron, Andrea Jenkyns, Bernard Jenkin, John Redwood and Owen Paterson. That's 19 hard brexiters by my count. 24 of them plus the DUP would have carried it.

    Edit to add James Duddridge, Philip Hollobone, Julia Lopez, Craig MacKinlay, Laurence Robertson, Andrew Rosindell and Anne Marie Morris


  • #8295
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Except it was the hard leavers that actually brought down May's deal. In the first MV 118 Tories and all the DUP voted against it. In the second, 75 Tories and all the DUP and in the third 34 Tories and all the DUP. In all cases, if the so called pro-leave Tory party and the DUP had voted for it, it would have passed.

    Among those who voted against MV3 (not including the DUP) were: Steve Baker, Priti Patel, Andrew Bridgen, Mark Francois, Peter Bone, Guto Bebb, Theresa Villiers, Bill Cash, Christopher Chope, Suella Braverman, Adam Holloway, David Jones, Julian Lewis, Marcus Fysh, John Baron, Andrea Jenkyns, Bernard Jenkin, John Redwood and Owen Paterson. That's 19 hard brexiters by my count. 24 of them plus the DUP would have carried it.

    Absolutely spot on. Just Guto Bebb to be fair, is a well known tory rebel and Boris Johnson hater. I dont know is he actually an erg member but i have a feeling he wont back the deal today.


  • #8296
    Shelga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,052 ✭✭✭Shelga


    How can they have an amendment to have a customs union when this is a non-negotiable, finalised deal with a third party? (Ie outside the UK)


  • #8297
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Shelga wrote: »
    How can they have an amendment to have a customs union when this is a non-negotiable, finalised deal with a third party? (Ie outside the UK)

    Open to correction but i think it can only be done in relation to futute declaration so how ultimately binding it will be is a moot point. Its biggest value could just lie in potentially wrecking the bill or the 31 oct deadline at least.


  • #8298
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,546 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    Absolutely spot on. Just Guto Bebb to be fair, is a well known tory rebel and Boris Johnson hater. I dont know is he actually an erg member but i have a feeling he wont back the deal today.
    Sorry, bad cut and paste by me. Meant to add Adam Afriye, the chap who wanted to have the referendum held earlier than planned. Edited my post to reflect this.


  • #8299
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Shelga wrote: »
    How can they have an amendment to have a customs union when this is a non-negotiable, finalised deal with a third party? (Ie outside the UK)

    Seems.HOC have this funny idea that their parliament is the most important in the world, and that all others should accede to their will.


  • #8300
    Hurrache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,381 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Finally a story coming out of the UK as to how some members of the media over there are complicit, and allow themselves to be, in smearing and lying on behalf of Johnson's government. Of course Kuenssberg get's her own section, as to does Peston. Unfortunately it won't be seen widely.

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/british-journalists-have-become-part-of-johnsons-fake-news-machine/
    Kuenssberg is therefore open to the criticism that she was being manipulated by Downing Street. Her tweets to her 1.1 million followers meant there were two government positions. One for the courts: that the government would obey the law. One passed on uncritically by the BBC political editor: that it would find a way to get round it. Kuenssberg’s tweets carried with them the implication that Johnson was deliberately deceiving a British court.

    This compliance is part of a pattern. Political editors are so pleased to be given ‘insider’ or ‘exclusive’ information that they report it without challenge or question

    Not sure how the BBC could provide this defence with a straight face
    “It should go without saying that reporting comments from anyone, be they source or named individual, is not the same as endorsing those comments. Similarly, taking a single Twitter thread out of context to try to prove a point is disingenuous and does a disservice to your readers.

    “Laura Kuenssberg is a fantastic journalist who helps audiences make sense of the Brexit story with her in-depth analysis and expertise.”


  • #8301
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    "Fundamental issue of trust in his word", Melanie Onn just tells PM in the house. One of the 6 rebel lab voters on saturday, doesnt sound like she's on board the boris bus today.


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  • #8302
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Johnson is telling the house that, far from being downgraded, workers rights will actually be enhanced by leaving the eu. Does he really expect any mp outside the ranks of his own deluded followers to swallow such obvious garbage?

    Edit: and now hes telling nigel dodds that there will in fact be no checks between gb and n ire. Just some vague light touch stuff, you'd hardly notice its there.

    He's unstoppable today!


  • #8303
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,261 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Letwin_Larry wrote: »
    the longer this nonsense goes on the more it comes back to the fundamental question,

    are MPs prepared to honour the decision of the Referendum or not?

    regardless of what you think about the result of the referendum, the wisdom of calling it, or how it was fought and argued, how informed or not the voter were, how intelligent, educated, rich or poor they were, how much you like, trust or detest the protagonists, that is the real question, that is the bottom line.

    and that will be the basis of the GE when it is fought.
    Article 50 was invoked. The referendum was honoured

    The fact that the brexiters can't agree on how to leave is because the referendum was so poorly thought out that the side that won don't share the same objectives and cannot agree on how to deliver it.


    Referendums are not some kind of divine gospel that can never be questioned or changed. If there is a vote, and the outcome of that vote leads to political instability and paralasis, then it is stupid to keep trying to implement that vote for years and years regardless of the consequences

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #8304
    PropJoe10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,396 ✭✭✭PropJoe10


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    "Fundamental issue of trust in his word", Melanie Onn just tells PM in the house. One of the 6 rebel lab voters on saturday, doesnt sound like she's on board the boris bus today.

    I saw she was wearing a top with the stars of the EU on it so maybe that's an indication of her thinking today :D


  • #8305
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The remainers don't mind because they never accepted the vote.

    It is not disgraceful, it is what they are elected to do - act in their constituents best interests.

    If their constituents don't like the way they do it, the remedy is that they have to face them at the next election. That's the system, always has been.


  • #8306
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    PropJoe10 wrote: »
    I saw she was wearing a top with the stars of the EU on it so maybe that's an indication of her thinking today :D

    Good spot! But did she buy a matching pair for Caroline Flint?


  • #8307
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,919 ✭✭✭GM228


    Enzokk wrote: »
    I don't know if this has been highlighted but if MPs vote through the WAB then the next deadline isn't in 8 months time to decide on an extension, it will be in 14 months time when the next cliff edge approaches and that time there will be no parliament intervention to decide on a extension or force one it seems.

    I noted this yesterday, and don't worry it has been spotted by the right people:-

    https://twitter.com/hilarybennmp/status/1186373549025615878?s=19


  • #8308
    Letwin_Larry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Letwin_Larry


    if this doesn't go through then it looks like there will be a GE before Xmas, that's if the EU grant an extension and if Corbie is up for it.


  • #8309
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,979 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Spot on. The remainers have tried every trick in the book to overturn the result of a democratic vote in which the majority voted to leave.

    It's disgraceful really. The biased refuse to see it. The remainers don't mind because they never accepted the vote.


    A non binding referendum that if it had been legally binding the result of which undoubtedly would have been struck down in court due to the multiple illegal activities of people on the leave side.


    What were you saying about the biased refuse to see?


  • #8310
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,434 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Article 50 was invoked. The referendum was honoured

    The fact that the brexiters can't agree on how to leave is because the referendum was so poorly thought out that the side that won don't share the same objectives and cannot agree on how to deliver it.


    Referendums are not some kind of divine gospel that can never be questioned or changed. If there is a vote, and the outcome of that vote leads to political instability and paralasis, then it is stupid to keep trying to implement that vote for years and years regardless of the consequences

    In any normal democracy, a referendum would be a mere tool of the political process and a not particularly important one.

    There's nothing normal about the UK though. It's more akin to a semi autocratic dictatorship these days, supported as such by its media and a fair swathe of the electorate.


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  • #8311
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,230 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Boris Johnson just told the DUP - "if you don't like the arrangements then gather a majority in the assembley to change them".

    Spot on.

    The DUP don't like democracy either when it does not suit them it seems.


This discussion has been closed.
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