Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Shelga · 18-10-2019 03:30PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

He may be a bit of a clacker, and he was coming from an English Nationalism perspective, but he does raise an important point. The UK border thing in Ireland is a square peg in a round hole. The sooner everyone realises it is an out of date, illogical and artificial creation implemented by a huge James Craig led Unionist majority 100 years ago that has since dwindled to a minority, the sooner both Ireland and the UK can move on.

You make it sound simple. It’s incredibly complicated. Also, I don’t want it back. (Appreciate that it’s not up to me)

Tea Shock · 18-10-2019 03:33PM

Ian Blackford's amendment could be interesting

Reject the new Brexit deal and call for an extension until at least 31 January 2020 to allow for an early election

If selected, I don't know why all opposition party's (and some former and perhaps present Tory's) wouldn't support this at this stage!

Varta · 18-10-2019 03:33PM

Tea Shock wrote: »

Considering most Brexiteers have spent the last year accusing the Irish government of overtly trying to cause a UI, that is plainly untrue!

Most brexiters couldn't find Ireland on a map.

18-10-2019 03:35PM

Are the ERG making a mess of it yet again? It seems they have let the cat out of the bag too soon by revealing their desire for a no deal exit should trade talks collapse by end of Dec 2020 even if the deal is passed tomorrow. By doing this its been suggested the 20 expelled Tories maybe getting cold feet about the deal as well as those Labour MPs thinking of backing it.

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1185168263950557184?s=20

GM228 · 18-10-2019 03:36PM

Tea Shock wrote: »

Ian Blackford's amendment could be interesting

If selected, I don't know why all opposition party's (and some former and perhaps present Tory's) wouldn't support this at this stage!

It could be called if there were signals MPs from other parties would back it, but for now it is only signed by SNP members. Even if it is called it is unlikely to get a majority and pass.

Professor Moriarty · 18-10-2019 03:41PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So if I am following the ERG leaks correctly, their plan is pass the deal, run down the clock again, and then at the end of the transition period in 2020, they have no trade deal and are out with No Deal, apart from NI.

Amazing to see so-called Conservatives so determined to reduce trade and impoverish the UK.

Not when you consider that the Prime Minister is funded by disaster capitalists. A quick glance at some of the self-styled 'Spartans' will throw up similar associations. One Brexit Party MEP, Habib, has blatantly put aside 100 million to buy up property after Britain crashes out. And British people vote these people into office. They're getting the government and governance they deserve.

J Mysterio · 18-10-2019 03:41PM

Tea Shock wrote: »

Ian Blackford's amendment could be interesting

If selected, I don't know why all opposition party's (and some former and perhaps present Tory's) wouldn't support this at this stage!

I can't see how the Blackford Amendment is even an amendment? It implicitly rubbishes and voids the deal altogether.

Tea Shock · 18-10-2019 03:43PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So if I am following the ERG leaks correctly, their plan is pass the deal, run down the clock again, and then at the end of the transition period in 2020, they have no trade deal and are out with No Deal, apart from NI.

Amazing to see so-called Conservatives so determined to reduce trade and impoverish the UK.

I think you can assume John Baron won't be getting any promotions from Johnson

https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_uk/status/1185160014421299200

GM228 · 18-10-2019 03:44PM

This is well worth reading on the topic of the level playing field by comparing the old and new WA:-

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1185182594566111232?s=19

ToBeFrank123 · 18-10-2019 03:50PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that they saw this as an opportunity to recreate the border that they despise the GFA for removing.

That definitely appears to be the long term goal and I also think they'd be quite happy with direct rule indefinitely. Its nice their bluff was called on that though and they are trying to reconvene Stormont for one or two issues.

The DUP have no interest in democracy. If they could go back to Gerrymandering and the like, they'd do it no problem.

BorneTobyWilde · 18-10-2019 03:58PM

Deal is worse than May's . Why didn't Labour support May's deal when it was keeping whole of UK in Customs Union

farmchoice · 18-10-2019 04:08PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Deal is worse than May's . Why didn't Labour support May's deal when it was keeping whole of UK in Customs Union

labour have set 6 tests that any deal must pass for them to support it.
the 6 tests are in effect impossible to ever meet in any deal, they unicorns++

so may's deal didn't meet them and this deal certainly doesn't and corbyn has stated that if he got the chance to negotiate a deal and if at the end of the day it didn't meet the 6 tests he would not support that one either.

Joe_ Public · 18-10-2019 04:08PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Deal is worse than May's . Why didn't Labour support May's deal when it was keeping whole of UK in Customs Union

Because labour wants permanent CU and close SM alignment and neither may deal nor this one gives it. They would have been voting to give tories a free hand in dictating future relationship so could not be bwhind it.

LeinsterDub · 18-10-2019 04:11PM

farmchoice wrote: »

labour have set 6 tests that any deal must pass for them to support it.
the 6 tests are in effect impossible to ever meet in any deal, they unicorns++

so may's deal didn't meet them and this deal certainly doesn't and corbyn has stated that if he got the chance to negotiate a deal and if at the end of the day it didn't meet the 6 tests he would not support that one either.

At their Unicorns result in the status quo . Not an economic car crash.

murphaph · 18-10-2019 04:13PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Not when you consider that the Prime Minister is funded by disaster capitalists. A quick glance at some of the self-styled 'Spartans' will throw up similar associations. One Brexit Party MEP, Habib, has blatantly put aside 100 million to buy up property after Britain crashes out. And British people vote these people into office. They're getting the government and governance they deserve.

From Twitter:

Tory strategy

"The forest was shrinking, but the trees kept voting for the Axe, for the Axe was clever and convinced the Trees that because his handle was made of wood, he was one of them."

Professor Moriarty · 18-10-2019 04:17PM

murphaph wrote: »

From Twitter:

Tory strategy

"The forest was shrinking, but the trees kept voting for the Axe, for the Axe was clever and convinced the Trees that because his handle was made of wood, he was one of them."

That's very clever and very accurate. Comes from a Greek fable.

ancapailldorcha · 18-10-2019 04:19PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's very clever and very accurate. Comes from a Greek fable.

It's one of Aesops, unsurprisingly.

farmchoice · 18-10-2019 04:25PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

At their Unicorns result in the status quo . Not an economic car crash.

oh absoutly. corbyn is often derided for his brexit stance. commentators and journalists like to complain thats its terribly/hilariously complicated and contradictory.

its not, its slightly complicated and nuanced but it is perfectly logical.
if ever anything summed up the problem with the UK at present and their media in particular its an extraordinary inability or unwillingness to look beyond soundbites and catch-calls

''brexit means brexit'',''no deal is better than a bad deal'', ''just get it done'', even ''better off in''

they lap up that simplistic crap, give them something to think about and well....... you see what happens.

J Mysterio · 18-10-2019 04:25PM

lol, this is basically a red rag to a bull:

'Varadkar seeks to reassure DUP ahead of indicative vote in Commons on Brexit deal'

“The queen will still be the queen, the pound will still be the pound , people will still post letters in Royal Mail red letter boxes,” Mr Varadkar said in Brussels at the conclusion of the two-day summit of European leaders.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/pound-is-still-pound-queen-is-still-queen-taoiseach-tells-unionists-1.4055171?mode=amp

J Mysterio · 18-10-2019 04:34PM

The genius of gurning Dom Raab

https://twitter.com/OxfordDiplomat/status/1185178708816080897

A Dub in Glasgo · 18-10-2019 04:34PM

Tea Shock wrote: »

If selected, I don't know why all opposition party's (and some former and perhaps present Tory's) wouldn't support this at this stage!

Will not pass, like all other SNP amendments irrespective of merit, simply because it is an SNP amendment

Dymo · 18-10-2019 04:38PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

The genius of gurning Dom Raab

https://twitter.com/OxfordDiplomat/status/1185178708816080897

There are a number of UK politicians coming out of brexit as complete clowns and Raab has to be up there with these comments with his constant reiterating that the EU will crumble at the last minute and as his stint as Brexit Minister.

Professor Moriarty · 18-10-2019 04:40PM

Dymo wrote: »

There are a number of UK politicians coming out of brexit as complete clowns and Raab has to be up there with these comments with his constant reiterating that the EU will crumble at the last minute and as his stint as Brexit Minister.

It's what happens when a well-educated and intelligent man becomes consumed by hubris. He's delighted with the way he turned out.

BorneTobyWilde · 18-10-2019 04:58PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Because labour wants permanent CU and close SM alignment and neither may deal nor this one gives it. They would have been voting to give tories a free hand in dictating future relationship so could not be bwhind it.

But if this passes they'll be living with the regret of not voting for May's soft Brexit.

Thargor · 18-10-2019 05:06PM

Sounds like this could be the plan:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamGyimah/status/1185115938296942592

LuckyLloyd · 18-10-2019 05:07PM

Thargor wrote: »

Sounds like this could be the plan:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamGyimah/status/1185115938296942592

So what, let them go right ahead

Joe_ Public · 18-10-2019 05:09PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

But if this passes they'll be living with the regret of not voting for May's soft Brexit.

I dont think mays brexit is very substantially different really, outside of NI changes. Labour wants a norway + style deal, their membership endorsed freedom of movement at last conference which is pretty much a remain position youd think. But they couldnt back any tory deal that just leads down road to deregulation, unions would rip them apart for a start.

RobMc59 · 18-10-2019 05:11PM

Dymo wrote: »

There are a number of UK politicians coming out of brexit as complete clowns and Raab has to be up there with these comments with his constant reiterating that the EU will crumble at the last minute and as his stint as Brexit Minister.

I have no time for the majority of the UK government and have always been against brexit but the EU have gone from a position of "that's the deal which is non negotiable"to making a u turn with regards to the backstop.
I make this point as a remainer who is very disappointed the EU have in fact "blinked"which they said they would never do.

Joe_ Public · 18-10-2019 05:15PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

I have no time for the majority of the UK government and have always been against brexit but the EU have gone from a position of "that's the deal which is non negotiable"to making a u turn with regards to the backstop.
I make this point as a remainer who is very disappointed the EU have in fact "blinked"which they said they would never do.

True. But i think the strategy was a good one. They just merely went back to a position they were at 2 years ago, the major concessions were from uk side and blame game shifted back to uk as well. Pretty masterful stuff by any standards i'd say.

Enzokk · 18-10-2019 05:20PM

Thargor wrote: »

Sounds like this could be the plan:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamGyimah/status/1185115938296942592

Sam Gyimah just stated the voting for the deal tomorrow doesn't stop this ride, it only intensifies it. The plan is for no-deal if the ERG are at the wheel.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So if I am following the ERG leaks correctly, their plan is pass the deal, run down the clock again, and then at the end of the transition period in 2020, they have no trade deal and are out with No Deal, apart from NI.

Amazing to see so-called Conservatives so determined to reduce trade and impoverish the UK.

James Cleverly, a less apt surname if there ever was one (reason to follow), thinks that this strategy needs some serious mental gymnastics to arrive at.

https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/1185172811159146496?s=20

The problem for Cleverly is that this plan was spelled out in front everyone.

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1185129387500421122?s=20

Another MP thinking the people are stupid and should be treated as such. If Labour allows this vote to pass tomorrow then I would not be sad to see them lose more seats in the next election. I cannot see one reason why any Labour MP would vote for this deal, there are a lot of bad reasons but no good reason for a Labour MP to go anywhere near this deal.

Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

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