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Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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Comments

  • #1952
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Yet in the last statute, Spain recognises it's a nation. Look at the last mod note too.

    Also: "a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory."

    How does it not fit the above definition, or indeed any definition of a nation? Are you even aware of what a nation is?

    I'll ask again, why should a nation not have the right to self-determination?

    No it doesn;t , it regognises it as a autonomous community within Spain - never refers to it as a nation


  • #1953
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    "In reflection of the feelings and the wishes of the citizens of Catalonia, the Parliament of Catalonia has defined Catalonia as a nation by an ample majority. The Spanish Constitution, in its second Article, recognises the national reality of Catalonia as a nationality. "

    Maybe you should go and look at the Catalan statute that was ratified by the Spanish government?

    Also, I provided a definition of what a nation is. How does Catalonia not fit this or any definition of the term? Why are you only selectively replying once again?

    You are aware you don't even need recognition to be a nation..... one just is. The Irish people were a nation even under British rule, whether recognised or not. It's based on ethnicity. Although, some of this clearly seems too abstract for you


  • #1954
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Selectively replying ? you're the only one here ..

    I don;t know where you are getting that - maybe here https://medium.com/@joelbellviure/whats-going-on-in-catalonia-a-short-history-of-catalan-independence-86bf64abf15f




    But from here https://www.boe.es/legislacion/documentos/ConstitucionINGLES.pdf
    And I would trust this official site ...
    Article 2
    The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish
    nation, the common and indivisible country of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and
    regions of which it is composed, and the solidarity amongst them all.


    Now I'm going out to check on my bloody bike, I actually live here and have to put up with these utter wasters ...


  • #1955
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Selectively replying ? you're the only one here ..

    I don;t know where you are getting that - maybe here https://medium.com/@joelbellviure/whats-going-on-in-catalonia-a-short-history-of-catalan-independence-86bf64abf15f




    But from here https://www.boe.es/legislacion/documentos/ConstitucionINGLES.pdf
    And I would trust this official site ...




    Now I'm going out to check on my bloody bike, I actually live here and have to put up with these utter wasters ...

    The Catalan statute is bound by the Spanish constitution. They are legally binding documents, or "official". If you can go out of your way to find the Spanish constitution, surely you'll be able to find the Catalan statute too. The Spanish constitution recognises there are nationalities within Spain, the Catalan statute exercised that right to be defined as a nation, and that Spanish government accepted the revised statute including this. Therefore the
    Spanish government and constitution recognises Catalonia as a nation. What is it you're struggling with?

    Can you define to me what a nation is? Or what you think it is?


  • #1956
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    We'll never know as they are continually denied the right to self-determination. Maybe over 50% don't want independence, but I'd wager over 50% would at least like the choice, particularly after what has happened in the last couple of years.

    They don’t have a right to self determination. This was pointed out to you ad nausea the last time round and you just keep repeating the same points. At what point do facts not matter to you?


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  • #1957
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Achasanai wrote: »
    I would imagine if the bunch of lads from Laois had their own language, identified as a separate nation throughout history, and actually were independent in the past, then it might be an idea to hold a free and fair referendum.



    Catalonia has as much right to determine their own path - if they so wish - as we had back in 1919.

    No they don’t actually and to compare British Imperialism to modern day democratic Spain where in Catalonia they enjoy the highest living standard in the country is to trivialise Ireland’s fight for independence.


  • #1958
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    They don’t have a right to self determination. This was pointed out to you ad nausea the last time round and you just keep repeating the same points. At what point do facts not matter to you?

    Any nation has a right to self-determination. Whether external forces prevent them from exercising that right is another matter


  • #1959
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Any nation has a right to self-determination. Whether external forces prevent them from exercising that right is another matter

    Can you show me where the Spanish Constitution specifically refers to Catalonia as a nation?


  • #1960
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Can you show me where the Spanish Constitution specifically refers to Catalonia as a nation?

    The statute is enshrined by the constitution


  • #1961
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    "In reflection of the feelings and the wishes of the citizens of Catalonia, the Parliament of Catalonia has defined Catalonia as a nation by an ample majority. The Spanish Constitution, in its second Article, recognises the national reality of Catalonia as a nationality. "

    Maybe you should go and look at the Catalan statute that was ratified by the Spanish government?

    Also, I provided a definition of what a nation is. How does Catalonia not fit this or any definition of the term? Why are you only selectively replying once again?

    You are aware you don't even need recognition to be a nation..... one just is. The Irish people were a nation even under British rule, whether recognised or not. It's based on ethnicity. Although, some of this clearly seems too abstract for you

    How do you reconcile those two contradicting statements? In one sentence you say you’ve just provided the definition of a nation and in the very next sentence you say there is no definition of a nation and that “one just is”? Well if we don’t need a definition of what a nation is then I say... one just isn’t.

    Seriously, I had a flick through the old posts on this thread and the amount of times you’ve contradicted yourself and your foot in your mouth has been boundless.


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  • #1962
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    The statute is enshrined by the constitution

    But you don’t accept the Spanish constitution so why would you invoke a document that you don’t recognise or have you changed your mind on that?


  • #1963
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    How do you reconcile those two contradicting statements? In one sentence you say you’ve just provided the definition of a nation and in the very next sentence you say there is no definition of a nation and that “one just is”? Well if we don’t need a definition of what a nation is then I say... one just isn’t.

    Seriously, I had a flick through the old posts on this thread and the amount of times you’ve contradicted yourself and your foot in your mouth has been boundless.

    How are they contradicting statements? I gave a definition of what it is. Ireland and Catalonia fit the definition.

    I said it does not matter what governing body recognizes or does not recognize what groupings or area's of people are or are not nations, as it's not a political term. If a grouping of people are culturally/ethnically one, they are a nation by default. It did not matter if Britain recognised us as a nation within the UK, as were were one anyway. The term is not political.

    You won't understand the above, it will go over your head


  • #1964
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    But you don’t accept the Spanish constitution so why would you invoke a document that you don’t recognise or have you changed your mind on that?

    I'm debating the point on the terms of those who do recognise it. If they recognise it, they must also recognise documents enshrined by it. Do keep up


  • #1965
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    How are they contradicting statements? I gave a definition of what it is. Ireland and Catalonia fit the definition.

    I said it does not matter what governing body recognizes or does not recognize what groupings or area's of people are or are not nations, as it's not a political term. If a grouping of people are culturally/ethnically one, they are a nation by default. It did not matter if Britain recognised us as a nation within the UK, as were were one anyway. The term is not political.

    You won't understand the above, it will go over your head

    Says who exactly? So if all the residents on my road decide that we are a nation, united by common language and community and we decide to call ourselves a nation does that make it so?


  • #1966
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    I'm debating the point on the terms of those who do recognise it. If they recognise it, they must also recognise documents enshrined by it. Do keep up

    The only reason those autonomous communities exist is because the constitution allows it to exist. The central government can take back control at any time as we’ve seen with article 155.

    Nowhere in the constitution does it refer to Catalonia as a nation. Nowhere, not once.


  • #1967
    bertie 56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Cataluna is not a nation
    Cataluna , no.


    But Catalunya , Cataluña , or in English Catalonia, yes.

    This has been recognize by Spain as a fact.
    You can see the actual President of the Spanish Government saying it himself :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JB74a9KjgU

    All the rest is said here :
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107254744&postcount=1892


    And in order to " move on and try to be constructive" , you can have a look at this post too :


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107312485&postcount=1911


  • #1968
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,356 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Mod Note: Folks keep the language civil.
    I've edited a number of posts but shouldn't really have to!


  • #1969
    rock22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,807 ✭✭✭rock22


    Just a bit of context
    The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible country of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed, and the solidarity amongst them all
    — Second Article of the Spanish Constitution of 1978

    In the context of the Spanish constitution, the 'nationalities' refer to the peoples and regions of Spain, it does not give any recognition to these regions as independent . Is explicitly defines Spain as 'indissoluble'


  • #1970
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    rock22 wrote: »
    Just a bit of context
    The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible country of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed, and the solidarity amongst them all
    — Second Article of the Spanish Constitution of 1978

    In the context of the Spanish constitution, the 'nationalities' refer to the peoples and regions of Spain, it does not give any recognition to these regions as independent . Is explicitly defines Spain as 'indissoluble'

    That point has been explained numerous times on this thread with links to specific statutory references but you may aswell be talking to a brick wall. Pro independence advocates have continuously chosen to ignore inconvenient facts and cherry pick snippets of text and quotes to try and suit their argument. The reality is that there is no democratic or legal case for independence.


  • #1971
    bertie 56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    How things have changed, last time out they were "protecting" the protesters. Crying shoulder to shoulder with the firemen.


    For your information,the Mossos of the referendum day were not of the same squad as the ones of Monday.
    Different forces, with a clear different role altogether.
    So nothing to compare here...

    And yes, some Mossos that day were emotive after seeing 1000+ fellow citizens send to the hospital due to the Spanish police brutality.
    As an hearty person, I can understand that .

    What I don't understand is that one can have a laugh about it ...



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0S8mV1iBQQ


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  • #1972
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    For your information,the Mossos of the referendum day were not of the same squad as the ones of Monday.
    Different forces, with a clear different role altogether.
    So nothing to compare here...

    So it’s the same police force but nothing to compare? Sorry but I don’t understand you logic.

    I have never come across as many contradictory points as the ones made by independence advocates.


  • #1973
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    That point has been explained numerous times on this thread with links to specific statutory references but you may aswell be talking to a brick wall. Pro independence advocates have continuously chosen to ignore inconvenient facts and cherry pick snippets of text and quotes to try and suit their argument. The reality is that there is no democratic or legal case for independence.

    There may be no legal case but you could definitely argue a democratic case.

    This kind of heavy handedness never works in the long run.


  • #1974
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Says who exactly? So if all the residents on my road decide that we are a nation, united by common language and community and we decide to call ourselves a nation does that make it so?

    No. That’s an logical fallacy called reductio ad absurdum.


  • #1975
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Can you show me where the Spanish Constitution specifically refers to Catalonia as a nation?

    The United Kingdom probably didn’t refer to Ireland as a nation in its constitutional laws.


  • #1976
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Mod Note

    Gentle reminder of of previous mod warnings on this thread. There are only so many reminders we'll give to people.
    Chips Lovell wrote: »
    First of all, apologies for taking so long to review. I only had time to do so today.

    Secondly, I already posted a mod warning on this thread:
    Baron de Charlus wrote: »
    @Tickers and bertie 56. If you can't have a discussion in a civil manner, I'll ban you both from posting in this thread. Stop taking swipes at each other.

    And yet the two of you are still involved an ill-tempered back and forth that's spoiling the thread for everyone else.

    From reviewing recent exchanges it seems that neither of you is willing to concede a point and move on and instead just digging deeper into minutiae and semantics.

    So, let's get two things straight.

    1.) Catalonia is a nation as per the last statue of autonomy. That means the state of Spain recognizes the Catalans are a nation. Just because it isn't in the constitution doesn't mean it isn't significant. If it wasn't significant, it wouldn't have caused such a fuss at the time.

    2.). The Spanish Constitutional court ruled that the referendum law was unconstitutional. That's it. Other rulings in relation to parliamentary process are kind of immaterial here.

    So let's drop both these points, move on and try an be constructive. Please bear in mind the charter which says:
    Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned. We do not expect posters to be experts in all areas, however, the onus is on all posters to fact check their information. If a poster is corrected, or information corrected in a thread, any poster who continues to relate misinformation as fact will be sanctioned.

    Thanks


  • #1977
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    The United Kingdom probably didn’t refer to Ireland as a nation in its constitutional laws.

    But they are making the point that the Spanish constitution does refer to Catalonia as a nation.


  • #1978
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    No. That’s an logical fallacy called reductio ad absurdum.
    Exactly, which is why the argument for Catalonian independence is a reduction to absurdity based on the arguments put forward above.


  • #1979
    bertie 56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    So it’s the same police force but nothing to compare? Sorry but I don’t understand you logic.

    I have never come across as many contradictory points as the ones made by independence advocates.


    You don't understand the logic of it because of your lack of basic knowledge about Catalonia in general, and in this precise case of the composition , roles and duties of the different bodies of the Mossos d'Esquadra .
    Nothing wrong here, nobody knows everything, but I can only suggest you to do your " homework " about it. ( No time or energy to do it for you myself , sorry...)


  • #1980
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    There may be no legal case but you could definitely argue a democratic case.

    This kind of heavy handedness never works in the long run.

    Where is the democratic case, the majority of people want to remain part of Spain. There has also been a heavy handedness on behalf the independence movement in calling illegal elections and declaring independence based of the results of those illegal elections.


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  • #1981
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    You don't understand the logic of it because of your lack of basic knowledge about Catalonia in general, and in this precise case of the composition , roles and duties of the different bodies of the Mossos d'Esquadra .
    Nothing wrong here, nobody knows everything, but I can only suggest you to do your " homework " about it. ( No time or energy to do it for you myself , sorry...)

    There are different divisions in every police force but it is still the same police force. Cherrypicking again - this part of the Mossos good, this part of the Mossos bad. What will be next?


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