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Where are the electric cars for the masses?

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    #332
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,141 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    IWT most are untethered, a plug point, as that gives you flexibility of which car you purchase.


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    #333
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/europe-is-falling-behind-in-the-electric-car-race-1.3815457?mode=amp

    Interesting article. Also can’t people invest in their on pv cells etc and generate their own electricity? How will the government do you on that exactly ?


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    #334
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,878 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Also can’t people invest in their on pv cells etc and generate their own electricity? How will the government do you on that exactly ?

    Yes we can, I have a large PV array myself and the plan is to charge my car close to 100% nearly all year around from my own PV. Government can't do you on that. They can't charge you for it. Free fuel for decades to come, once you have your install up and running. Which is very cheap now compared to even a year ago. And there is an SEAI grant available of up to €3,800 for a PV setup, which is extremely generous.


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    #335
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Thanks unkel. With that grant, how much more roughly to get a typical system and kw that would be installed ?

    I assume prices on the hardware will keep coming down, but grant might get less generous?


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    #336
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,878 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Thanks unkel. With that grant, how much more roughly to get a typical system and kw that would be installed ?

    I assume prices on the hardware will keep coming down, but grant might get less generous?

    Big thread on quotes for PV installs under the new grant scheme here:

    Linky


    Summary: you can install a 3kwp system DIY if you buy your parts at good prices for not much more than €1.5k. You can have a fancy dancy 4kwp with battery fully installed and signed off by SEAI approved installer for about €10k minus €3.8k grant, or a bit over €6k. Or something in between :)


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    #337
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    unkel wrote:
    Summary: you can install a 3kwp system DIY if you buy your parts at good prices for not much more than €1.5k. You can have a fancy dancy 4kwp with battery fully installed and signed off by SEAI approved installer for about €10k minus €3.8k grant, or a bit over €6k. Or something in between

    I'd be a long time using 6 grands worth of electricity


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    #338
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,487 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    The Enbalmer wrote: »
    I'd be a long time using 6 grands worth of electricity

    Not everything is about money.
    But I do agree that I wouldn’t advise someone to go out tomorrow and drop 6k on a system if their primary goal is to save money.

    But, if you were renovating or replacing the roof or carrying out an attic conversion or similar works then it may be the beat opertunity to do some form of renewable install.

    It’s also worth noting that the €6k quoted above includes a battery which in theory you could go off grid for a large portion of the year. The average household uses about 10kwh a day. If your panels can fill a battery if 5kwh a day then most of your evening useage would be from the battery.

    In my own experience, I generate 10-15kwh a day plus for at least 6 months of the year. If I had a battery I could go 90% off grid.

    It’s also worth noting that currently, even during winter months in getting about 50% of my hot water needs met by my PV install and immersion divertor and my unit consumption has halved compared to the year before I had the system installed.


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    #339
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,878 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    The Enbalmer wrote: »
    I'd be a long time using 6 grands worth of electricity

    My own 4kwp system cost me about the same as I'd spend on electricity in a year.


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    #340
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,214 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Deleted User wrote: »
    As long as investors are making money who cares about us lol.

    In the beginning we were promised much cheaper energy bills with all the wind farms but electricity costs have gone up and up. Joke.

    There are feck all wind farms in Ireland compared to what there could be. Additionally, I don’t ever remember anyone suggesting that wind energy would be cheaper. The point is that the cost can be more stable in a similar way to nuclear but not necessarily cheaper.


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    #341
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Marcusm wrote: »
    There are feck all wind farms in Ireland compared to what there could be. Additionally, I don’t ever remember anyone suggesting that wind energy would be cheaper. The point is that the cost can be more stable in a similar way to nuclear but not necessarily cheaper.

    Do you think we should put more ugly turbines on land, how much is too much ?


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    #342
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,429 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Do you think we should put more ugly turbines on land, how much is too much ?

    I think we should have a tender for what support we give to wind farms, (and I don't find them ugly)
    But they're never going to be cheap, especially when you factor in the changes in the grid, and the redundancy built in and spinning reserve (or equivalent)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #343
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,724 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    I have got to try and get a handle on this. The subject of why Electric vehicles are more expensive to buy new than (well I will use petrol cars in this instance) than a Petrol car?

    OK, so my figures my be a bit out but I think I am near enough correct.

    If I were interested in going out and making the bold move to go buy a BEV .

    I will use Renault as and example. - If I wanted to buy a Clio petrol I think the price would be €16,000 on the road for the basic one. But if i wanted to buy a Renault Zoe the basic on the road price would be €26,000 (again sorry if I havent got the figures exactly correctly)

    - why the big price difference? .. in fact why a difference at all? .. in fact even further because sales of BEV's really have to be pushed now with all this environment issues and being told that in the near future we will all have to move over to electric vehicles, why dont they price an EV actually cheaper than a petrol version .

    What makes up this price difference ... sure the technology of batteries and the motors and the electronics (well electronic components are normally dirt cheap) .. but at least a price of a petrol ICE engine does not have to be fitted to an electric vehicle

    so what is the general score on why a renault zoe should cost thousands more than a petrol Clio ?? - is it really down to costs of how to manufacture an electric vehicle vs the cost to make the Clio (using them as an example here) or is someone somewhere making money out of the electric car revolution?


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    #344
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Have you not previously had a monster thread on this?


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    #345
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,724 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Stheno wrote: »
    Have you not previously had a monster thread on this?

    what? on what makes them more expensive? - I cant remember i dont think so


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    #346
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,142 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    The same reason an iPhone 11 is expensive.


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    #347
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,429 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Well, electric cars are new technology
    And there is supply and demand... At the moment battery electric vehicles are in demand, but supply is limited, (more by battery than anything else) so why would they sell them super cheap...
    It may be than when things settle down that electric car batteries are just expensive .. (probably not as pricey as now but pricier than say a basic petrol engine)

    And remember that Renault zoe is artificially cheaper than it should be, with a vrt rebate...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #348
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Costs involved in tech, design, construction, infrastructure, batteries and their components and materials needed which themselves are very hard to mine and costly too.


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    #349
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,724 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    bazz26 wrote: »
    The same reason an iPhone 11 is expensive.

    thats what I got to thinking and then I am like , hold on this shouldnt be about that. You have people being told to consider buy electric vehicle because they are better for the the environment - so why if anyone, are people / manufacturers profiteering out of this?

    also , with the iPhone are you not normally paying over the odds because of the name your paying for. I cant see that you would be paying over the odds because of the name of renault say .. not even Hyundai .. maybe a BMW electric or Audi maybe .. but Renault???


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    #350
    BENDYBINN
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭BENDYBINN


    The ev companies have copped on that governments are going to give big grants for buying their cars............so they have upped their prices to collect their share of this. Happens everywhere there is grants involved.


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    #351
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,724 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Costs involved in tech, design, construction, infrastructure, batteries and their components and materials needed which themselves are very hard to mine and costly too.

    could you not offset that all by realising that you have all that ... but you are not putting a petrol engine in it so you save on that - and factor that into the price of a new electric car?


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    #352
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,724 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Ive just been searching there how much a Zoe costs without grant - and can only find the grant for the UK ones at £3,500 .. anyone know what the grant is for the Irish ones?


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    #353
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,892 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Costs involved in tech, design, construction, infrastructure, batteries and their components and materials needed which themselves are very hard to mine and costly too.

    The same costs are involved in the design and construction of ICE cars yet they are cheaper even though they are more complex to design and manufacture. The car companies, bar 1, are not building infrastructure.

    Batteries are an issue but that's not the reason why the cars are so expensive.


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    #354
    JPA
    Registered Users Posts: 13,758 ✭✭✭✭JPA


    New technology requires massive R and D expenditure. The initial releases will try to recoup that money, then when the money is recouped the profit starts rolling in.
    Everything a company does is for profit.


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    #355
    krissovo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    ICE cars have had 100 years to optimize the supply chain, EV’s while the technology is arguably older than Diesel engine cars the optimization of that supply chain has not evolved until just recently.

    Tesla have started and the gigafactories should drive down cost. VW look to be the first mainstream manufacturer to optimize with the MEB platform and in a few years costs should drop.

    Grants are not helping either!


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    #356
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,290 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    BENDYBINN wrote: »
    The ev companies have copped on that governments are going to give big grants for buying their cars............so they have upped their prices to collect their share of this. Happens everywhere there is grants involved.

    The auto industry have also copped on that Electricity is going to replace the Internal Combustion engine, same as that engine replaced the horse.


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    #357
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    1. supply and demand
    2. Most manufacturers are only making small amount of don’t drive manufacture cost down
    3. Government grants
    4. Lack of action by government against combustion engine
    5. Fear factor in customer base


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    #358
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,790 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Well, electric cars are new technology

    Electric vehicles have been around longer than the internal combustion engined car.


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    #359
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,290 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Electric vehicles have been around longer than the internal combustion engined car.

    Sideline for bout 90 years though.


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    #360
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,142 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    1. supply and demand
    2. Most manufacturers are only making small amount of don’t drive manufacture cost down
    3. Government grants
    4. Lack of action by government against combustion engine
    5. Fear factor in customer base

    How does 3. make EVs expensive? The manufacturer is still getting the same money for the vehicle except some of it is coming from the government rather than the consumer. Or is there gouging going on by manufacturers to make as much money as possible while they are still a niche product?

    As for 4. If you have punish people to force them to buy something then there is something wrong with the product. If it's as affordable and does exactly what a combustion engine did then there should be no reason for the predictable and thoughtless tax your way

    Also how does 5. work. If anything has taught us people generally vote with their wallets first and their moral conscience is further down the list.


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    #361
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Electric vehicles have been around longer than the internal combustion engined car.

    After the 191x's they've been pretty much produced for proof of concept as opposed to mass market. Mainly due to understandable issues with range.


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