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Where are the electric cars for the masses?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    LorenzoB wrote: »
    As somebody said, it's like the iphone thing. Battery cars are promoted and priced for well to do who want to buy some sort of exclusivity. Before they would have some BMWs 530. I suspect what you'll find is that specs will go up every couple of years and the price will go up to match, and the fanboys will have to upgrade. Like iphones this will release cars to the second hand market, but still at inflated price.

    We will need to wait for the equivalent Samsung car, and then the Huawei car before there is any mass market.

    In short, battery cars are over priced because they can be.

    I dont mind that, and why not. if people want to pay for name/build quality fair do's carry on, But lets just say at the moment the Renault Zoe is the 'samsung android or even motorolla' of BEV's the lowest price is €26k i believe .. madness.

    Not only rich people want to buy electric vehicles - we need to be at a stage of having some models to choose from but more staggering price range. starting with a nice realistic price for an entry model . reault could fit that bracket .. or even dare I say it something like Fiat, what they done with the Fiat punto years ago when you could pick up a shiny brand new 2000 Punto for 11K when other manufacturers cars were starting at 15k (I know because I scrapped in my old car and bought one)

    So I definately think probably Dacia could / might do something maybe fill that market maybe (look what they done recently with the Sandero in UK and Ireland market and look what a good seller that was for people wanting a budget entry level brand new car)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    VikingG wrote: »
    Surely the reason that they are more expensive is that they sell less.... Any design costs, tooling, startup costs (NRE) is spread over far fewer cars. The current ratio of ICE Sales to Electric is around 50 to 1 .. that means that those startup costs are 50 times more expensive in an electric car. Think of it this way if those costs contributed €1000 to an ICE car .. it should be €50000 to an electric. Now I know it gets muddled with shared components etc but you get the idea.

    That is a huge markup that is applied to each electric car. I actually think that most auto companies (like Renault with the Zoe) are actually losing money with each sale.. but they are writing that off as they look at the long term goal.

    If you have a company like renault, I should imagine you are pooling resources across the range. you are pooling (or should be) the profit margins from ICE and Diesal into the production now of the Zoe electric car and any other future developments in the pipe line.

    If you own a shop and have some product line that you have an offer on and are selling it cheaper then you recouperate your money you have lost on that product by spreading the money from the higher priced non sale items and it all (should) balance out - but its a win win , a win with the customers because they get their product at a sale price and a win for the shop because their special offers (that may have been struggling to sell) suddenly start flying out of the door


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,988 Mod ✭✭✭✭ charlieIRL


    yes, but being Volkswagen even the lowest model will come with a hefty price tag I reckon

    I saw the e-golf at a seminar the other week , cant remember the price but I think it was around 36grand - 10 grand dearer than the renault Zoe or maybe I am getting the price mixed up with the kona

    The Audi e-tron SUV at the same event was priced at 135k :O

    We have a Zoe work car/van in work and I have an eGolf, all they have in common is that they are EV’s.

    There’s a massive difference in the quality of them and you really can’t really compare them. From the build quality to the extra gadgets on the golf, the Zoe is miles behind while still being a capable EV.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    charlieIRL wrote: »
    We have a Zoe work car/van in work and I have an eGolf, all they have in common is that they are EV’s.

    There’s a massive difference in the quality of them and you really can’t really compare them. From the build quality to the extra gadgets on the golf, the Zoe is miles behind while still being a capable EV.

    I know , thats what I am trying to say. i bought a fiat Punto brand new in 2000 its plastics were cheap and flimsy the upholstery and seat support was cheap - it was a cheap car - but the punto filled a market , the people who wanted to own a brand new car for cheap.

    I feel the Renault Zoe is trying to fill that cheap market at the moment ... but the price is 26k so cannot compete not at the moment well not with an ICE car because if you were on a budget you would go for the 15k Clio petrol or even cheaper Dacia sandero.

    I bet your electric golf with its bells and whistles cost a lot more than the Zoe did of course its going to be better build quality.

    I not an expert on the prices. I am presuming your Zoe was around 26grand yes? .. and how much was the e-golf?

    I have not even test driven the Reanault zoe yet , not even sat in one (J.J. Burke renault main dealer in Ballinrobe have very kindly told me I am welcome to test drive one, one day even though I said I cannot afford one at the moment or even if I had no intention of buying one at the moment so thats good I want to take them up on that one day. But we presently own a Clio mk4 2016 and thats pretty plasticky and budget materials used in places so i am expecting the same of the Zoe to be honest, because its the cheapest EV on the market. Being the chaepest I wouldnt expect it to be high end


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭ VikingG


    If you have a company like renault, I should imagine you are pooling resources across the range. you are pooling (or should be) the profit margins from ICE and Diesal into the production now of the Zoe electric car and any other future developments in the pipe line.
    Companies don't pool resources in that way.. they will know the End to End costs of all components that go into a single model ( as well as the model variants). As they have 50 times less cars to spread the one off costs what they are doing is spreading the cost between the first time adopters and accepting some of the loss themselves.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,309 ✭✭✭✭ starlit


    Are they likely to reduce the on the road price with or without the grant in a few years time when more ev's be on the road? Will prices be fairly standard as they are as hybrids seem more popular than ev's at the moment?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,797 samih


    LorenzoB wrote: »
    ...attery cars are promoted and priced for well to do who want to buy some sort of exclusivity. Before they would have some BMWs 530. I suspect what you'll find is that specs will go up every couple of years and the price will go up to match, and the fanboys will have to upgrade...

    I'm on my second LEAF now. Before the 1st LEAF bought new back in 2015 my car was a 250 quid jalopy and the one before that cost princely 2600. The one before that was a 175 yoyo FIAT.

    So no expensive Beemers for me before jumping to the other side. Actually I really liked the fact that I could get away driving cars like those.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 5,865 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    EU Emissions rules from 2021 mean that manufacturers are going to have to start getting serious about selling zero emission vehicles.

    Each BEV VW sell in 2021 reduces their overall fine by upto €20,000. They can do that upto about 500,000 cars


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,783 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    liamog wrote: »
    EU Emissions rules from 2021 mean that manufacturers are going to have to start getting serious about selling zero lower emission vehicles.

    Each BEV(or PHEV) VW sell in 2021 reduces their overall fine by upto €20,000. They can do that upto about 500,000 cars

    FYP :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,006 ✭✭✭ babybuilder


    liamog wrote: »
    EU Emissions rules from 2021 mean that manufacturers are going to have to start getting serious about selling zero emission vehicles.

    Each BEV VW sell in 2021 reduces their overall fine by upto €20,000. They can do that upto about 500,000 cars

    The car companies are being dragged screaming to the ev revolution solely due to the new emission regulations.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 5,865 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    KCross wrote: »
    FYP :D

    PHEVs aren't worth as much. BMW thinks it can get away with a major push into mild electrification and PHEV. VW group are pushing further to full electrification. It's all a numbers game for accountant's at the end of the day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,165 ✭✭✭ The J Stands for Jay


    .

    at least with ICE cars you have more of a choice in a car howroom - you pick your car you like and if you want one with a higher capacity petrol engine say, you can, but you have to pay more for it

    Yeah right.

    Hello Mr Ford dealer, I'd like a petrol Mondeo.

    Hello Mr Nissan dealer, I'd like a GT-R. Oh, you only sell Micras or Kashquais?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    ... and yet i heard on the radio the other day that the EU want to push for Hydrogen powered cars by 2030 or 2040 I think I heard with just water coming out of the 'exhaust' is even before everyone has changed over to BEV's

    it could be that with all the infrastructure put in place for the EV masses that it could in the end become out of date pretty quickly


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,783 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    liamog wrote: »
    PHEVs aren't worth as much.

    They get a super credit at the same level as a BEV.

    I suppose a BEV is still worth a bit more when averaging it out but not significantly more as PHEV's get very low emissions figures anyway.

    It all has to be balanced against the cost of producing a BEV and how much margin is in it relative to producing a PHEV. I can see why some OEM's are going the PHEV route. The regulations actively encourage it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    i personally dont get* PHEV myself . if you gonna make the big change and change to electric .. then change to electric . dont go hybrid which still uses fuel that we are all told will be depleted soon and that are filthy for the environment.

    (* well I do in a way, because some of the Hybrids these days you dont even have to plug in do you? , you can just use fuel on the long journeys and just use the battery power in towns and when you have to keep stopping and starting isnt it?)


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 57,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    what? on what makes them more expensive? - I cant remember i dont think so

    Your thread:

    "Where are the electric cars for the masses?"

    Linky

    In the first paragraph:

    "These electric vehicles are nearly always out of the reach of the normal consumer but why?, why dont they come cheaper? "

    Your thread has 351 posts in it


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭ adunis


    Ahhh I see another troll.......


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    unkel wrote: »
    Your thread:

    "Where are the electric cars for the masses?"

    Linky

    In the first paragraph:

    "These electric vehicles are nearly always out of the reach of the normal consumer but why?, why dont they come cheaper? "

    Your thread has 351 posts in it

    thanks - bloody old age is a problem innit ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    adunis wrote: »
    Ahhh I see another troll.......

    not really, i just forgot it was already covered - i didn't do a search.

    maybe a moderator could have moved it to the other thread then if another one wasnt allowed. i'm not a troll tho


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 5,865 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    Mod Note: Merged thread with the last time OP asked the question


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    liamog wrote: »
    Mod Note: Merged thread with the last time OP asked the question

    thanks -


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,961 ✭✭✭✭ Shefwedfan


    not really, i just forgot it was already covered - i didn't do a search.

    maybe a moderator could have moved it to the other thread then if another one wasnt allowed. i'm not a troll tho

    Not sure how you can “forget” a 300 post thread and then ask the exact same question


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,637 ✭✭✭ eddhorse


    This is a ridiculous merged thread.

    Why are new technologies expensive and why are we waiting for them to develop and get cheaper.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    I'm sorry . The 'Where are the electric cars for the masses' thread I started at the beginning of 2019 and the last post was in March so i forgot, I'm only human.

    OTOH , I still think the question 'Why are electric vehicles more expensive to buy?' , I would of thought is maybe a different question to 'Where are the electric cars for the masses'

    but sorry if I stuffed up


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    eddhorse wrote: »
    This is a ridiculous merged thread.

    Why are new technologies expensive and why are we waiting for them to develop and get cheaper.

    Is that a question or observation? - only electric vehicles have been around for ages now. And around 2013 with the Nissan leaf .. all they have done has fit in better motors and higher rate or more batteries.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    Is that a question or observation? - only electric vehicles have been around for ages now. And around 2013 with the Nissan leaf .. all they have done has fit in better motors and higher rate or more batteries.

    2011


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭ September1


    Even if EVs were same cost as ICE, it would not make any sense to sell them at same price. They have lower running costs, so have higher value for purchaser and any rational manufacturer on free market should command premium for this.

    Imagine that you have a supply of fuel cards that provide 90% discount for lifetime of vehicle and you can choose to include those card with vehicle. Would it make sense to sell vehicle with card at same price as without card? It would not, hence EVs, regardless of R&D costs and manufacturing costs, should be more expensive then similar ICE models.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    you have 'pluses' on the saving of fuel .. but you have inconveniences in other areas.. so you still need to factor these into the equations:

    Bad infrastructure still for EV's - not enough chargers across the land and a lot of them broke, out of action sometimes for days.

    Fuel - you can fill up and pay fuel for your car in under 3 minutes.

    If you run out of fuel , someone could come along with a container and you could fill up with fuel at the edge of the road and continue on your way - what do you do if you do run out of battery power and the nearest battery charger is miles away?

    and much more you have to think about. and its these 'inconvenience' of this technology that really needs the push of electric cars. And if that means making them so attractive and tempting that you price them very near to ICE cars that will sell more of them , once the sales go up more are then made and prices come down even more for the manufacturer .. and then whether they wish to pass that onto the customer is up to them - they could get to a stage where they sell (well especially the budget entry level makers) similar price to their equivalent ICE cars, even if that means making a loss for a certain amount of time and then raking in the rewards at a later time.

    Lots of companies have had to sell something (a product or a service) at a loss (sometimes for years) and recoup their profit at a later time


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭ krissovo


    What inconvenience? I get home from work and plug in, takes less than 30 sec’s. Actually it is a inconvenience, i have to reverse into my drive :mad:

    Even better when i plug in at work i get to park nearer the office and then do not have to plug in at home.

    The infrastructure is fine for my needs, getting to Dublin and back is fine for anyone who has CCS charging and willing to use IONITY.

    In 20 years I have never come across anyone carrying a can of fuel back to their car.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭ September1


    Lots of companies have had to sell something (a product or a service) at a loss (sometimes for years) and recoup their profit at a later time


    Sometimes that is true, but in case of EVs it just does not make any sense. There is a lot of people for which EVs are more convenient and again they are OK to pay extra for convenience. Do you also complain that buses are more expensive to buy then cars, because they are pretty inconvenient to park and drive on narrow roads?


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