Where are the electric cars for the masses?

samih

If somebody doesn't buy the 191 EVs there won't be affordable second hand 200km 191 EVs.

There have been some posters here that own more than one car and their daily commute distance would suit cars like original Zoe and definitely cars like LEAF 40 kWh. But the conclusion seems to be: BEV would suite me perfectly but then when going to Dublin twice a year I would have to swap cars with the wife. So going to buy a diesel instead.

[Deleted User]

I'll early adopt consumer tech, I'll pay premium on first run of 2nd gen tech, but there is no way I can justify that level of spend on any car when I can buy a great 2nd hand ICE car for half that price.
Quote lifetime savings all you want but I can manage to pay for the 2nd hand car and maintenance over that time Vs the extra cost upfront (and associated interest charged)

ELM327

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

4 owners??? ... On an electric car! . Find that strange. Looks a nice one. Yeah battery rental model at that year.

Originally wanted my Mrs to spend this on our next car and go electric. Was looking at 2014 car up in northern Ireland dealer at around 5 and a half grand UK pound . there would have been no VRT to pay on it. But she was worry about (especially the older Zoe's) not doing much on one charge , and range anxiety (being out somewhere , it running out of charge and not being able to find a charging station) and having to work her day around being somewhere where a charger is and hanging around longer than she needed even if it was 20mins to give it a quick top up . and then on top that battery rental. Its a shame , I really wanted her to go electric for her next car. I can see where she was coming from though it is enough to put people off. You can say the plusses about 120 vehicle tax, you can say about some toll roads/bridges being exempt of charges for electric vehicles, you can say about some places offer free parking for electric vehicle's, you can say about never having to fill up with petrol ever again, you can say about quiet car without an old fossil fuel engine and all the problems you have with an ice engine let alone how much better ev's are for the environment re pollution and everything and yet as long as all those other things are outstanding (regarding the age you could get a cheap one, the high battery rental that comes with them, the short range on one charge for the earlier ones) then this does take the shine off owning an electric vehicle (of that age / price)

So what are we face with now, a sharp increase With people wanting and buying a new electric car in 2019 , they are ready to take the plunge. But the affordable cars (in the second hand market) are older, low range on one chage ,come with a battery rental charge that you have to pay out for , no avoiding - well maybe you could buy out , but look how much extra that bumps a car up to!)

So then you are looking at buying a new one without battery rental , longer range than the earlier electric vehicle's and you are then talking of having a fat wallet (with some of them costing 30grand and more) and is out of most peoples budget! So where are the electric vehicles for the masses? (Well talking used car market they are there with the Zoe's at 2014 vintage and 80km range and high cost battery rental charge) and then you have maybe Nissan leaf at ever older vintage at around 2011 again with a battery rental and not as fast charging as the Zoe , again it has a low range on one charge) so again where is the selection/availability where is the electric vehicle's for the masses?

So say you have the budget to go for a brand new 191 electric car in Ireland. What have you the choice of out of all the car manufacturers that have an ice car in the market in Ireland. Well the only choice I think you have now if you wanted to go out and buy a 191 today is (I am ready to be corrected) the Hyundai kona all electric (quoted 450km range) , the Volkswagen e-golf, the new Renault Zoe's, and of course the Nissan leaf. Again, where is the choice? Where are the electric cars for the masses?

We are already then (according to the media) people are ready for their car now or next car to be electric. No getting away with that number 1 there is not many to choose from as there is ice cars on the market, and even now with people ready to make the change the street charging stations in Ireland need massively upgrading (fixed as well, an awful lot seem to be out of action for a long time sometimes, the ones that are in existence) and more chargers put in, everywhere in Ireland.

Zoes do 100km easily on a charge.
It's not high battery rental. Either €40 or €70 a month. When you spend €350+ on fuel each month, €70 is not so high!


My budget was approx €5k after fees, so once the hammer price went past 4700 I was out. Someone got a good deal, showing they can be had.


Would not reccomend a gen 1 leaf to anyone. Gen 1.5 min.

samih

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll early adopt consumer tech, I'll pay premium on first run of 2nd gen tech, but there is no way I can justify that level of spend on any car when I can buy a great 2nd hand ICE car for half that price.
Quote lifetime savings all you want but I can manage to pay for the 2nd hand car and maintenance over that time Vs the extra cost upfront (and associated interest charged)

Depending what you drive and of course in most cases it is cheaper to drive an used car.

I used to have a 250 yoyo (purchase price) SAAB 9-5 that I drove for several years before I traded it for a LEAF back in 2015. The LEAF cost me 9000 in depreciation in just under 3 years and as I covered over 70k during that time the cost difference in petrol and maintenance vs. electricity and maintenance on the LEAF was exactly the same. So in effect I could drive a 15 year newer car for the same cost per kilometer than a 250 euro petrol car.

If at the moment you were for a market for Qashqai it would be madness not to buy a LEAF instead if the range suits you as the cars are pretty much the same size and price but the LEAF has maybe 1/5 of the running cost.

Andy From Sligo

samih wrote: »

If somebody doesn't buy the 191 EVs there won't be affordable second hand 200km 191 EVs.

There have been some posters here that own more than one car and their daily commute distance would suit cars like original Zoe and definitely cars like LEAF 40 kWh. But the conclusion seems to be: BEV would suite me perfectly but then when going to Dublin twice a year I would have to swap cars with the wife. So going to buy a diesel instead.

OH NO! - not diesel - I thought they were dead in the water now?

my mrs does mainly drive locally around town, and to her job in Leitrim (about 47km a few times a week) the odd few times Sligo to Enniskillen, and very very rarely Sligo to Dublin . Thats why I thought maybe an older Renault Zoe BEV would have done her fine. Yes, but as you say in an ideal world it would be better off 2 car family , one Ice, one older used Zoe, but we havent got the money for 2 cars (let alone one, we had to take out a loan) so in the end the Renault Clio mk4 ICE car one. she tells me "dont worry the next one we will buy will be electric " - but that will be when this ones paid for in 5 years time! LOL unless our circumstances change , I wonder what Electric Cars will be available then ?

samih

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

OH NO! - not diesel - I thought they were dead in the water now?

my mrs does mainly drive locally around town, and to her job in Leitrim (about 47km a few times a week) the odd few times Sligo to Enniskillen, and very very rarely Sligo to Dublin . Thats why I thought maybe an older Renault Zoe BEV would have done her fine. Yes, but as you say in an ideal world it would be better off 2 car family , one Ice, one older used Zoe, but we havent got the money for 2 cars (let alone one, we had to take out a loan) so in the end the Renault Clio mk4 ICE car one. she tells me "dont worry the next one we will buy will be electric " - but that will be when this ones paid for in 5 years time! LOL unless our circumstances change , I wonder what Electric Cars will be available then ?

That's a fair bit of driving so EV could make a sense. Keep the Clio for those Dublin trips. Just tax for 3 months when needed. Or even better, rent a car for the Dublin trips. My BIL is visiting Ireland at the moment and drives a brand new Clio for 10 yoyo a day for the week. That's only 300 quid a month if you think it that way.

Andy From Sligo

ELM327 wrote: »

Zoes do 100km easily on a charge.
It's not high battery rental. Either €40 or €70 a month. When you spend €350+ on fuel each month, €70 is not so high!


My budget was approx €5k after fees, so once the hammer price went past 4700 I was out. Someone got a good deal, showing they can be had.


Would not reccomend a gen 1 leaf to anyone. Gen 1.5 min.

all duly noted.

in real life then, the older Zoe of 22kw battery do 100km then on one charge? - thats good then I was watching videos and hearing reviews of around 70km on on 22kw ones but a manufacturers documented of 150km on one charge. Of course the used 2014 ones could be at 75-80% battery level at this stage too, I suppose you have to take that into account (the guarantee they will replace baterry is 70% isnt it I think?)

What a shame you lost out with relatively only a little bit more you would have had to add to your budget to win the auction on that car. - hope your succesful in the future securing one. I have never been to a car auction before, always bought private or from a garage/dealer.

Yeah that thing about the battery rental charge. When i was trying to convince the wife of getting an EV she kept saying about the battery rental charge and I kept saying yep but she wouldnt be buying petrol though , so take that money what you paid out for petrol per month and put it towards the battery rental and the increased electric bill charge for when she charged at home or at a pay as you go street charger.

ELM327

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

all duly noted.

in real life then, the older Zoe of 22kw battery do 100km then on one charge? - thats good then I was watching videos and hearing reviews of around 70km on on 22kw ones but a manufacturers documented of 150km on one charge. Of course the used 2014 ones could be at 75-80% battery level at this stage too, I suppose you have to take that into account (the guarantee they will replace baterry is 70% isnt it I think?)

What a shame you lost out with relatively only a little bit more you would have had to add to your budget to win the auction on that car. - hope your succesful in the future securing one. I have never been to a car auction before, always bought private or from a garage/dealer.

Yeah that thing about the battery rental charge. When i was trying to convince the wife of getting an EV she kept saying about the battery rental charge and I kept saying yep but she wouldnt be buying petrol though , so take that money what you paid out for petrol per month and put it towards the battery rental and the increased electric bill charge for when she charged at home or at a pay as you go street charger.

Once they have the BMS update they will do 100km easy.


There's an irish youtuber called "Jan Bart Spang" who has a zoe at 100k km and 98% SOH, regulalrly does long trips so I find the videos interesting from an Irish perspective (even if his voice is a bit monotonous and grating!!)

Andy From Sligo

ELM327 wrote: »

Once they have the BMS update they will do 100km easy.


There's an irish youtuber called "Jan Bart Spang" who has a zoe at 100k km and 98% SOH, regulalrly does long trips so I find the videos interesting from an Irish perspective (even if his voice is a bit monotonous and grating!!)

ah yeah I've seen his video's before - done 700km trip round Ireland and filmed it very good. He showed how good it is to drive through a flood as well when other ICE cars wouldnt even attempt it (just in case flood water would go up exhaust and .... er ..... flood the engine )

What's this BMS update thingy? - is it reprogramming the ECU?

Gumbo

KCross wrote: »

You mean started rather than rolled out!

It’s going to take years to rollout.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It might be to ESB staff....


I doubt any normal house will see anything of a smart meter till next year and for the whole country it could be 2022 before it is finished.....

Sorry I didnt see post above

Workshops ongoing.
September is the start of the roll out and probably through staff scheme first.

Markcheese

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

I wouldn’t want to be anywhere approaching 6ft in that Zoe. Looks tiny.

Zoe is taller than the clio that it's based on, (because the batterys under the seat),

The Enbalmer

Andy From Sligo wrote:

Yeah that thing about the battery rental charge. When i was trying to convince the wife of getting an EV she kept saying about the battery rental charge and I kept saying yep but she wouldnt be buying petrol though , so take that money what you paid out for petrol per month and put it towards the battery rental and the increased electric bill charge for when she charged at home or at a pay as you go street charger.

I bet she told you she'd keep the petrol car.

The Enbalmer

liamog wrote:

The automobile industry is experinecing the Osborne effect at the moment. People are deciding that their next car will be electric .

They really aren't

Markcheese

The Enbalmer wrote: »

They really aren't

Do you remember when the entire country swapped to buying more expensive diesel cars to save a few quid on road tax, and 10 cent a litre at the pump... Well... Electric is cheaper again..

redlead

Markcheese wrote: »

Do you remember when the entire country swapped to buying more expensive diesel cars to save a few quid on road tax, and 10 cent a litre at the pump... Well... Electric is cheaper again..

This myth that people bought diesel for cheap car tax is a load of nonsense. Given the 10c a litre at the pump and the better economy then they are a genuinely better choice for a lot of people financially. A lot of people might buy diesel second hand even though they do low mileage but they aren't bearing the initial premium of buying a diesel so makes no difference to them apart from the fact that fuel will be a bit cheaper for them.

The other myth that Diesels are costly to maintain is getting tired too. You'd swear DPF filters are falling out of every second car and turbos are breaking after a couple of years. There is little difference in maintenance cost between the two in reality. I prefer driving petrols myself but this thing that diesel is the juice of the devil is getting very tiring.

I personally can't wait to go all electric but once everyone is converted I guarantee you there will be a different tariff for car charging introduced through smart metering or some other means where you'll end up paying nearly as much. Just think of all the extra power generation that will be required.

[Deleted User]

redlead wrote: »

I guarantee you there will be a different tariff for car charging introduced through smart metering or some other means where you'll end up paying nearly as much. Just think of all the extra power generation that will be required.

Not going to happen, smart metering will account for the whole house, there would have to be a 2nd one for the car, that won't happen.

Most likely Motor tax will rocket up and they will probably introduce tolls on all main routes, but that's a long, long way away because the carrot at the moment is ultra low running costs, particularly those of us with free work charging and until there is massive increase in total fleet of cars nothing will be done to make diesel more attractive any longer.

In fact, once there are more EV models to choose from I'd expect Diesel taxes to get considerably higher in order to pay for the shortfall in taxes from the sale of electrics. Diesel car and Diesel Fuel taxes won't be getting cut that's for sure the only way they're heading is up, up, up.

Zenith74

I guarantee you there will be a different tariff for car charging introduced through smart metering or some other means where you'll end up paying nearly as much. Just think of all the extra power generation that will be required.

I don't really understand this particular argument. If you owned a business, maybe making and selling doughnuts, or sparkling water or whatever and your level of sales had been fairly stagnant for years. Then something changes and you can see your sales is about to double of triple over a nice incremental growth period you would be absolutely ecstatic!

The electricity supply companies (here or wherever) are in this exact position; they've been boring old utility companies with single digit sales growth for years, but now their sales are about to double/triple over the next 10 years. Why would they see this as a bad thing or suddenly start ramping up prices. More sales is not a negative thing for them, it's a positive thing!

Car tax is obviously different because this will have a negative impact on the government take, but conflating this effect with something like electricity supply where it is a paid-for product that is about to hit a golden era of growth is flawed thinking at best.

Markcheese

Electricity companies (not so much the retail billing end) are asset managers,infrequently building, (or sanctioning and managing) big projects like power stations and interconnecters,
, and the same with the domestic distribution, nothing too radical...
So culturally they're not geared to being radical, what they need is steady predictability,
Spending billions on new tech, or capacity that turns out to be unnecessary wouldn't go down well, especially as in such a price regulated industry, they can't invest in 3 or 4 big projectd knowing that massive profits from just 1 will cover everything...

redlead

I don't think that the electricity supply companies are going to jack prices; I could see a different tax rate or surcharge added to power used to charge EVs. There is absolutely no way that the government is going to lose all that revenue and not go after the motorist. This would be a fairer method that having very high motor taxes. I'm talking down the line after the vast majority have switched to EV.

Also, building power plants is extremely capital intensive and that money has to come from somewhere. I'm presuming that our current capacity wouldn't be enough if everyone switched over night. I admittadely don't know the facts here so am just making an assumption. Of course we can import power but France and Britain may have the same capacity issues.

I just think it would be very naieve to assume that EVs are going to always be as cheap to run.

Shefwedfan

I have yet to find a single electric car driver that doesn't know the good days will be over...the question is well....


At the moment if you use the main Motor forum as a good view of the Irish public you have a very very large percentage of "diesel till I die" etc etc



So personally I see the rest of the World moved and Ireland still crawling behind. I would guess at least 5 year before the government really needs to start taxing the ass out of electric


In the meantime all those "diesel till I die" people can continue to pay my taxes for me......

[Deleted User]

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have yet to find a single electric car driver that doesn't know the good days will be over...the question is well....


At the moment if you use the main Motor forum as a good view of the Irish public you have a very very large percentage of "diesel till I die" etc etc



So personally I see the rest of the World moved and Ireland still crawling behind. I would guess at least 5 year before the government really needs to start taxing the ass out of electric


In the meantime all those "diesel till I die" people can continue to pay my taxes for me......

Total bollox, I have a diesel because I do the mileage quite often.
I would love to go electric but
1. None, anywhere near affordable, are suitable for my family.
2. None have enough range (at affordable levels)
3. I should not be expected to buy a car that has extremely limited charge stations.
4. The government pushed diesel, it is NOT the fault of the motoring public for following that.

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have yet to find a single electric car driver that doesn't know the good days will be over...the question is well....


At the moment if you use the main Motor forum as a good view of the Irish public you have a very very large percentage of "diesel till I die" etc etc



So personally I see the rest of the World moved and Ireland still crawling behind. I would guess at least 5 year before the government really needs to start taxing the ass out of electric


In the meantime all those "diesel till I die" people can continue to pay my taxes for me......

I'd say longer tbh

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Total bollox, I have a diesel because I do the mileage quite often.
I would love to go electric but
1. None, anywhere near affordable, are suitable for my family.
2. None have enough range (at affordable levels)
3. I should not be expected to buy a car that has extremely limited charge stations.
4. The government pushed diesel, it is NOT the fault of the motoring public for following that.

Agree, have gone back to diesel for the above list

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree, have gone back to diesel for the above list

You forgot to mention that you are dying to go into another EV again, only a few days after selling your own EV. Scouring auctions, willing to buy cars with monthly battery lease, etc.

Jackhammer9

I'd be worried about buying EV and charging

Is 3-4 hours enough to charge a car at home,that's all the ESB is proposing to allow with smart metering.

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

You forgot to mention that you are dying to go into another EV again, only a few days after selling your own EV. Scouring auctions, willing to buy cars with monthly battery lease, etc.

And I am constantly looking too even though I know that no car, which I can afford, is as suitable as my S80 (2nd hand)

unkel

Jackhammer9 wrote: »

I'd be worried about buying EV and charging

Is 3-4 hours enough to charge a car at home,that's all the ESB is proposing to allow with smart metering.

You're right to be worried. No, that is not enough time, most current EVs use 7.2kW charging and all EVs currently for sale new have a battery of at least 28kWh (unless I'm forgetting one here), so they take at least 4 hours to charge from empty to full

Now, the vast majority of people rarely or never have to charge from empty to full overnight, but sometimes some people do. It would be silly if you couldn't do that. What's more likely though is that the ESB will let you use a super cheap night rate, but for only 4 hours per day. I'd love to be part of the trial of the first smart meters.

KCross

Jackhammer9 wrote: »

Is 3-4 hours enough to charge a car at home,that's all the ESB is proposing to allow with smart metering.

Yes, 4hrs is enough for most people unless you are doing crazy miles daily.

And no, thats not what the ESB is proposing with smart meters. They might restrict power but not cut it off entirely, so you'll still be able to fully charge if thats what you want/need.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

You forgot to mention that you are dying to go into another EV again, only a few days after selling your own EV. Scouring auctions, willing to buy cars with monthly battery lease, etc.

One that's cheaper to run than a fossil fuel car, yes.
Considering we also have a second car for longer trips a Zoe would do the commute fine. But I want to pay €4k not €7k for a battery leased one.


Long term I see myself in a Tesla but that's as a fanboy and because I believe in their products not because it makes financial sense.

Jackhammer9

unkel wrote: »

You're right to be worried. No, that is not enough time, most current EVs use 7.2kW charging and all EVs currently for sale new have a battery of at least 28kWh (unless I'm forgetting one here), so they take at least 4 hours to charge from empty to full

Now, the vast majority of people rarely or never have to charge from empty to full overnight, but sometimes some people do. It would be silly if you couldn't do that. What's more likely though is that the ESB will let you use a super cheap night rate, but for only 4 hours per day. I'd love to be part of the trial of the first smart meters.

The chief exec was on the radio

He said they'll be switching cars out after a few hours to allow someone else charge

No panic with installing public charging points either