Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Stop moaning ffs · 06-10-2019 07:15PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Macron saying today that UK has until the end of the week to fundamentally change it's proposals according to the Guardian.

Leo said the same last night although with gentler language.

Then the tabloids went with ‘Varadkar demands a third extension’ and ‘Varadkar issues brexit deadline threat!’

He did neither.

Forty Seven · 06-10-2019 07:16PM

listermint wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

No joke. This country cannot afford SNP policies as it stands, never mind after independence. The oil is no longer what it was, Ireland is already being used as a bridge between America and Europe so no corporate benefits, that leaves us with whisky and tourism. Hardly an economy as an island with a hostile border to the south.

That wasn't my question.

You inferred it was hatred was why they wanted out.

Which goes against all of the factual reasons.

So I ask again. Was that a joke or were you being serious.

I'm very serious, I live here. If you think brexiteers are stupid and uninformed why do you think the indi campaign is any different? They were campaigning to leave in a period of economic and political security not so long ago. Now they are using brexit as their own project fear. You can't have it both ways, this hardcore large percentage have wanted to break the union since long before brexit.
Which is it?

20silkcut · 06-10-2019 07:20PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Hard to see Scotland remaining in the UK much longer.

They are essentially being taken out of the EU by England. If Scots feel the same about EU as Irish do I just can't see them accepting it in the short to medium term.

The UK is a complete mess of contradictions now.

It’s great though a possibility of a United ireland and the break up of the UK every cloud has a silver lining and I know a hard Brexit will be tough but it will be immensely satisfying to see both these occurrences in the aftermath of it.

Forty Seven · 06-10-2019 07:24PM

20silkcut wrote: »

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Hard to see Scotland remaining in the UK much longer.

They are essentially being taken out of the EU by England. If Scots feel the same about EU as Irish do I just can't see them accepting it in the short to medium term.

The UK is a complete mess of contradictions now.

It’s great though a possibility of a United ireland and the break up of the UK every cloud has a silver lining and I know a hard Brexit will be tough but it will be immensely satisfying to see both these occurrences in the aftermath of it.

The promised loss of NI would likely turn many remainers to leave. That historical stone around our neck has been slowing us for a very long time. You guys are welcome to it. It's not a part of the union. Just a war trophy.

Stop moaning ffs · 06-10-2019 07:25PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

I'm very serious, I live here. If you think brexiteers are stupid and uninformed why do you think the indi campaign is any different? They were campaigning to leave in a period of economic and political security not so long ago. Now they are using brexit as their own project fear. You can't have it both ways, this hardcore large percentage have wanted to break the union since long before brexit.
Which is it?

You’re really not debating in good faith here to be honest. There’s a clear and very easily defined difference between the two situations.

Ps how’s the new baby?

Kermit.de.frog · 06-10-2019 07:28PM

The threats begin...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ireland-warned-to-expect-disruption-to-medicines-and-fishing-in-no-deal-brexit-jmrpl2lrw

The Republic of Ireland will face potential disruption of medical supplies, customs delays, the loss of fishing rights and a ban on the transport of horses to the UK in the event of a no-deal Brexit, a paper drawn up in Whitehall has warned.

Michael Gove’s Brexit operations committee has compiled a list of the issues that Dublin will face in a no-deal Brexit, to be used as “leverage” during last-ditch discussions in the event that negotiations break down.

The Times understands that issues raised by ministers include:

• The fact that 60 per cent of Ireland’s medicines come from the UK.

• Customs checks causing lengthy delays on the bridge to Holyhead, from where freight traffic travels to Ireland.

• The potential loss of fishing…

Want to read more?

Don't have access to article though.

listermint · 06-10-2019 07:30PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

I'm very serious, I live here. If you think brexiteers are stupid and uninformed why do you think the indi campaign is any different? They were campaigning to leave in a period of economic and political security not so long ago. Now they are using brexit as their own project fear. You can't have it both ways, this hardcore large percentage have wanted to break the union since long before brexit.
Which is it?

Slow your roll.

The Indy campaign was told they would be chucked from Europe and that the Tories would keep them in

Better together or don't you recall

Are you attempting to rewrite history.. considering of course you voted to remain and that...

Charles Babbage · 06-10-2019 07:34PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The threats begin...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ireland-warned-to-expect-disruption-to-medicines-and-fishing-in-no-deal-brexit-jmrpl2lrw

If there is no bread (UK flour) then we shall eat brioche (French flour).

Mr.Nice Guy · 06-10-2019 07:38PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The threats begin...

Remember I read somewhere that disruption to medical supplies would hit NI too. Such a policy would likely push up support for reunification.

MrMusician18 · 06-10-2019 07:38PM

listermint wrote: »

Your at least consistent in your anti EU bias.

Amazing how Germany ... The often touted 'owner of the eu' has accepted hundreds of thousands of refugees'

I mean considering your line of thought the owners of the EU wouldn't do that and would just push off responsibilities to other 'lesser' countries.

No ?

Say anything critical about the EU here and you're labeled as having anti EU bias. If you actually look through my posting history you'll actually see that I'm quite pro European, but I'm not so blinded by europhilla that I cannot see that national interests and common interests do not align.

Migration as some say was not an EU competence, but the Dublin Accord, developed through the EU institutions has been a total failure.

And indeed, least we forget Jean Claude Trichet promised that a bomb would go off in Dublin unless the Irish government acquiesced to his demands. That's solidarity with the ordinary Irish citizen yeah?

20silkcut · 06-10-2019 07:40PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The threats begin...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ireland-warned-to-expect-disruption-to-medicines-and-fishing-in-no-deal-brexit-jmrpl2lrw

Don't have access to article though.

I’m sure the EU 27 can help us out. We won’t starve bring it on.

Kermit.de.frog · 06-10-2019 07:41PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

And indeed, least we forget Jean Claude Trichet promised that a bomb would go off in Dublin unless the Irish government acquiesced to his demands. That's solidarity with the ordinary Irish citizen yeah?

I agree with you until this point.

Let's be real here - the crisis in Ireland was created in Ireland, no where else through our own economic mismanagement.

I'm amazed we were not turfed out to be honest. I'd argue we should have been having grossly mismanaged our affairs.

listermint · 06-10-2019 07:41PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Say anything critical about the EU here and you're labeled as having anti EU bias. If you actually look through my posting history you'll actually see that I'm quite pro European, but I'm not so blinded by europhilla that I cannot see that national interests and common interests do not align.

Migration as some say was not an EU competence, but the Dublin Accord, developed through the EU institutions has been a total failure.

And indeed, least we forget Jean Claude Trichet promised that a bomb would go off in Dublin unless the Irish government acquiesced to his demands. That's solidarity with the ordinary Irish citizen yeah?

Your posting history through multiple threads is very much anti EU. You put a thin veneer on your questions that's evident.

You conveniently side stepped my point about not throwing the Italians under the bus.

And anyway brexit thread. The EU are with Ireland as everyone said they would and you've been talking it down as if they wouldn't for years. Still wrong

CelticRambler · 06-10-2019 07:48PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

They were campaigning to leave in a period of economic and political security not so long ago. Now they are using brexit as their own project fear. You can't have it both ways ...

You can. This Brexit farce, the incompetence of a Tory government and the paralysis of Westminster in the face of English nationalism has proven that Scotland's economic and political security is seriously threatened by continued participation in the United Kingdom. If IndyRef-1 had been won, Scotland would have been on the road to independence now, and more than likely fast-tracking itself back into the EU.

Forty Seven wrote: »

The promised loss of NI would likely turn many remainers to leave. That historical stone around our neck has been slowing us for a very long time. You guys are welcome to it. It's not a part of the union. Just a war trophy.

Have you instructed your MP (or even your PM) to make that clear to the DUP? Because they're reallly, really, proud of their Scottish heritage.

06-10-2019 07:50PM

listermint wrote: »

Your posting history through multiple threads is very much anti EU. You put a thin veneer on your questions that's evident.

You conveniently side stepped my point about not throwing the Italians under the bus.

And anyway brexit thread. The EU are with Ireland as everyone said they would and you've been talking it down as if they wouldn't for years. Still wrong

If you owe the bank a few thousand, it's your problem; if you owe the bank hundreds of millions, it's the bank's problem.

bank = EU in this situation.

ilovesmybrick · 06-10-2019 07:56PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

I know. Hence my incredulity at everyone on here singing the praises of one while shouting shame at the other.

I'm going to presume that you're being disingenuous here. What I was saying is that the Brexit vote made no sense and had no proper thought or rationale behind it. It was based upon a misinformed concept of Europe that has been peddled for thirty years by some of the UKs now leading politicians. No one understood why the UK wanted it, the UK had no idea of the cost bar a misinformed hatred of a misconceptualised version of Europe, and as has been proven repeatedly over the past few years don't actually know a damn thing about how it works.

Economic and political pragmatism kept Scotland in the UK in 2014, and what I was suggesting is that a hatred of what a few mostly English privately educated politicians is doing is creating the environment by which any and all economic and political pragmatism will be buried under resentment and lead to a new Scottish independence vote.

Just to clear that up.

Stop moaning ffs · 06-10-2019 08:14PM

The mirror so salt included but I’d say this exactly 100% accurate.

https://twitter.com/trevdick/status/1180845344223059969?s=21

First Up · 06-10-2019 08:17PM

MrMusician18 wrote:

And indeed, least we forget Jean Claude Trichet promised that a bomb would go off in Dublin unless the Irish government acquiesced to his demands. That's solidarity with the ordinary Irish citizen yeah?

Why do people keep peddling this nonsense?

Trichet was not making "demands". He was pointing out the inevitable consequences in the money markets if Ireland defaulted on commercial debt. And he helped us manage not to.

The EU has thrown nobody under a bus; it has pulled a few members out from under the buses they found for themselves - and suggested how they could avoid doing so in future.

Hurrache · 06-10-2019 08:27PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The threats begin...

They've been ongoing for a long time now.

MrMusician18 · 06-10-2019 08:33PM

First Up wrote: »

Why do people keep peddling this nonsense?

Trichet was not making "demands". He was pointing out the inevitable consequences in the money markets if Ireland defaulted on commercial debt. And he helped us manage not to.

The EU has thrown nobody under a bus; it has pulled a few members out from under the buses they found for themselves - and suggested how they could avoid doing so in future.

Trichets threat was that the ECB would withdrawal the emergency liquidity from the Irish banks which would, in turn, have caused the total paralysis of the Irish economy. Irish banks weren't in the money markets at the time.

Solidarity was paying 6.5% interest.

First and foremost, the the EU institutions protect themselves, and if that aligns with national interests then it's a happy coincidence. As I've said, the position the EU came to take was not a given, it could've just as easily taken an approach hat protecting the market and trade was more important than any other concern and probably would be in the greater interest of more Europeans than just the Irish. It was the Irish government that made the border a central plank of the EUs Brexit strategy and they should be lauded for that.

And it's not anti-EU to state this.

Iderown · 06-10-2019 08:33PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Remember I read somewhere that disruption to medical supplies would hit NI too. Such a policy would likely push up support for reunification.

Shortages of medicine have already hit here in Northern Ireland. Herself is on Hormone Replacement Therapy and the prescriptions recently cannot be fully supplied be the local pharmacy. They blame Brexit inspired stockpiling by other outfits.

Me, I well remember the problems we had here with political inspired industrial action in 1974. I keep an eye on supplies in the likes of ASDA and the queues at fuel filling stations.

I almost hope that some panic buying would set in in England so that Boris could see what could result from his policies.

Forty Seven · 06-10-2019 08:41PM

Iderown wrote: »

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Remember I read somewhere that disruption to medical supplies would hit NI too. Such a policy would likely push up support for reunification.

Shortages of medicine have already hit here in Northern Ireland. Herself is on Hormone Replacement Therapy and the prescriptions recently cannot be fully supplied be the local pharmacy. They blame Brexit inspired stockpiling by other outfits.

Me, I well remember the problems we had here with political inspired industrial action in 1974. I keep an eye on supplies in the likes of ASDA and the queues at fuel filling stations.

I almost hope that some panic buying would set in in England so that Boris could see what could result from his policies.

HRT shortages are nothing to do with brexit. It is a temporary production issues confirmed by manufacturers and has never been attributed to brexit.

Leroy42 · 06-10-2019 08:46PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

HRT shortages are nothing to do with brexit. It is a temporary production issues confirmed by manufacturers and has never been attributed to brexit.

So there is a well known production shortage and you don't think that stockpiling due to the expected issues with Brexit are not going to make it worse?

Professor Moriarty · 06-10-2019 08:46PM

Iderown wrote: »

Shortages of medicine have already hit here in Northern Ireland. Herself is on Hormone Replacement Therapy and the prescriptions recently cannot be fully supplied be the local pharmacy. They blame Brexit inspired stockpiling by other outfits.

Me, I well remember the problems we had here with political inspired industrial action in 1974. I keep an eye on supplies in the likes of ASDA and the queues at fuel filling stations.

I almost hope that some panic buying would set in in England so that Boris could see what could result from his policies.

Johnson doesn't care. He went to Eton and Oxford. He lives in an elitist bubble. How Joe Soap lives his life is beyond his comprehension.

Infini · 06-10-2019 08:49PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The threats begin...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ireland-warned-to-expect-disruption-to-medicines-and-fishing-in-no-deal-brexit-jmrpl2lrw

Don't have access to article though.

To which the response should be as some say in the gaming community: "Get Rekt". As far as things stand they have zero leverage if they insist on this suicide run for the satisfaction of their own egos they will be forced back and this time there will be punitive damages all while fighting a Scotish Indyref 2 and Irish Reunification/Border Poll.

Forty Seven · 06-10-2019 08:51PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

HRT shortages are nothing to do with brexit. It is a temporary production issues confirmed by manufacturers and has never been attributed to brexit.

So there is a well known production shortage and you don't think that stockpiling due to the expected issues with Brexit are not going to make it worse?

Who is stockpiling? The issue is well known here <in Great Britain> where we have the same shortages. You think hrt is our priority when stockpiling drugs? It's a non essential treatment. I'll listen when we have life saving drugs in short supply but this is a non starter. Nobody anywhere, not even women's groups, menopause charities, manufacturers, government or media has suggested this is a brexit issue so let's put the nonsense to bed right there shall we?

A Dub in Glasgo · 06-10-2019 08:51PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The threats begin...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ireland-warned-to-expect-disruption-to-medicines-and-fishing-in-no-deal-brexit-jmrpl2lrw

Don't have access to article though.

Here you go

Ireland warned to expect disruption to medicines and fishing in no-deal Brexit
new
Steven Swinford, Deputy Political Editor | Henry Zeffman, Political Correspondent | The Times

October 6 2019, 6:00pm, The Sunday Times

The Republic of Ireland will face potential disruption of medical supplies, customs delays, the loss of fishing rights and a ban on the transport of horses to the UK in the event of a no-deal Brexit, a paper drawn up in Whitehall has warned.

Michael Gove’s Brexit operations committee has compiled a list of the issues that Dublin will face in a no-deal Brexit, to be used as “leverage” during last-ditch discussions in the event that negotiations break down.

The Times understands that issues raised by ministers include:

• The fact that 60 per cent of Ireland’s medicines come from the UK.

• Customs checks causing lengthy delays on the bridge to Holyhead, from where freight traffic travels to Ireland.

• The potential loss of fishing rights off the coast of Northern Ireland.

• Disruption to “equine transport” between the Republic and the UK.

Ministers are also considering a range of “sweeteners” to offer Dublin, including a commitment to help fund the infrastructure needed to enforce customs checks between the North and South.

Stephen Barclay, the Brexit secretary, suggested that Britain could amend its proposals to give Northern Irish parties a veto on the regulations that apply in the province after Brexit.

Speaking this morning on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show, Mr Barclay said: “The key issue is the principle of consent. That’s why the backstop was rejected three times. That was the concern in terms of both sides in Northern Ireland not approving of the backstop.

“So the key is the principle of consent. Now, of course in the mechanism, as part of the intensive negotiations, we can look at that and discuss that.”

Mr Barclay reiterated that Northern Ireland giving consent to abiding by regulations set in Brussels was “the key issue of principle” but added that “we can obviously as part of the intense negotiations in the coming days discuss that mechanism”.

Under the existing UK proposal, Northern Ireland’s Stormont assembly would vote every four years on whether to remain aligned with the EU’s single market rules for goods. But the Irish government opposes this, as does every major Northern Irish party but for the DUP, the Conservatives’ allies in Westminster.

Asked if the government was “going to move” on its current proposal, Mr Barclay said: “Well, we’ve set out a broad landing zone, so in the detail of the negotiations of course we can get into the detail as to how operationally they work [and] what legal certainty is required by the commission as of October 31.

“But the point is the commission themselves proposed customs checks away from the border, and in terms of the all-of-Ireland economy that would have had a bigger impact in terms of trade to Great Britain than it does to Northern Ireland.”

The comments on the article are something else :eek:

Leroy42 · 06-10-2019 09:09PM

So Johnson is very much signalling that this 'deal' is just a starting point and he is open to further discussions.

That is quite a difference from what they were saying only a few days ago.

So having got the ERG and DUP to agree to a 'deal' which contained many of the issues they claimed to be against (NI would still be under the remit of the ECJ for example) , how far do you think he will be able to move and still keep them on board?

darem93 · 06-10-2019 09:12PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

Don't bet on it. Plenty of us unionists still around. Just because the indi campaign is active doesn't make it a done deal. Most of them are as bad as the worst of the leavers. No idea why they want indi. No idea what it will cost. Just an historical hatred of the English.

This is so untrue. There were plenty of St. George's Crosses at the march in Edinburgh yesterday and there are lots of campaign groups from England who are pro-independence.

I was born in England, love visiting my family there and genuinely think it is a fantastic country, but I wouldn't for one minute want us here in Ireland to ever be ruled by Westminster again.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 06-10-2019 09:16PM

The EU has so far unequivocally backed Ireland's position on not wanting a hard border for over 2 years at this stage. There isn't even the smallest crack that they will deviate from this position. They have to be commended.

So many Brexit supporters on Twitter (not the greatest source) were saying how Ireland owed Britain because of the billions in loans given during the recession that helped save our economy. Firstly, Britain gave that loan out of self interest. Secondly, the loan is payed back with the interest on top. That was no 'favour' to us.

Outside of any principled or political arguments. The facts are that Ireland's border counties are the poorest in the country. That's with a soft border. Customs posts will deprive those areas even more. Any Irish government or individual that is okay with a hard border can't be acting in good faith.

Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

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