Couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery!

Gloomtastic! · 30-09-2019 8:07pm #1

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/apple-tax-pot-on-course-to-lose-70m-a-year-awaiting-verdict-cag-38547944.html

So you’re given €14 billion to invest and hopefully make some sweet money for Ireland Inc. while the Apple tax case is underway.

You put three very reputable investment banking firms in charge of the money and yet they manage to lose money on it! I bet their bills for management fees are still being sent regularly.

So clever Boardsies, what would you invest the money in?

delta_bravo · 30-09-2019 10:05pm

Prize Bonds

bizidea · 30-09-2019 10:51pm

Id organise a piss up in a brewery and invite the whole country

Jim2007 · 01-10-2019 2:52am

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/apple-tax-pot-on-course-to-lose-70m-a-year-awaiting-verdict-cag-38547944.html

So you’re given €14 billion to invest and hopefully make some sweet money for Ireland Inc. while the Apple tax case is underway.

You put three very reputable investment banking firms in charge of the money and yet they manage to lose money on it! I bet their bills for management fees are still being sent regularly.

So clever Boardsies, what would you invest the money in?

Total nonsense, that is not what happened. Now go back and read the article and do a bit of research. And maybe when you actually understand the situation and the brief given to the investment managers you’ll be able to make a credible critique of the situation.

There is a reason why you would do exactly the same as they did in the same situation, although it is unlikely to ever happen. Now you figure out why....

JMMCapital · 01-10-2019 9:46am

Negative yields are no joke. Given the slowdown and negative yield environment I would avoid Europe first of all maybe look at allocating that 14 billion to one or two emerging market ETFs (VWO,EEM etc), private equity (not 100% sure about this as their seems to be a slowdown in this space, PE firms have a lot of cash piled up right now 2.1 trillion if I recall correctly also paying 8,9,10 times cashflow for a business might be quite risky), Treasury notes, Municipal Bonds and maybe keep a small bit in Gold.

Mach 3 · 01-10-2019 11:57am

For arguments sake let's say the average boardsie start up fund is €1400 after a year the fund would be worth €1380 approx after fees.
Most would be happy with that as it would cost more in fees if you left it in the bank..

Jim2007 · 01-10-2019 12:08pm

JMMCapital wrote: »

Negative yields are no joke. Given the slowdown and negative yield environment I would avoid Europe first of all maybe look at allocating that 14 billion to one or two emerging market ETFs (VWO,EEM etc), private equity (not 100% sure about this as their seems to be a slowdown in this space, PE firms have a lot of cash piled up right now 2.1 trillion if I recall correctly also paying 8,9,10 times cashflow for a business might be quite risky), Treasury notes, Municipal Bonds and maybe keep a small bit in Gold.

You just lost the client and are facing a law suite for failing to comply with the client's instructions.

JMMCapital · 01-10-2019 12:15pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

You just lost the client and are facing a law suite for failing to comply with the client's instructions.

Its report says the National Treasury Management Agency (NTMA) and Apple jointly agreed in May 2018 to appoint the Bank of New York Mellon as escrow agent with the power to hold and release the funds.

The following month, they appointed three asset management firms - Amundi, Blackrock and Goldman Sachs - to invest those funds into “highly rated euro-denominated fixed income securities”.

Apologies Jim, I Didn't read the article should have done that

Take out ETFs,private equity and gold then. stick to Treasury notes and maybe municipal bonds, stay clear of Europe.

drunkmonkey · 01-10-2019 12:19pm

Doing very well with the €200 billion invested in the banks. Noticed they released the results a year behind. Considering the collapse in share vale we must be €400 billion in the hole by now. The investment can't wash it's face it's costing more to finance then can be recouperated. Is there a case for just selling the lot off.

Jim2007 · 01-10-2019 6:55pm

JMMCapital wrote: »

Its report says the National Treasury Management Agency (NTMA) and Apple jointly agreed in May 2018 to appoint the Bank of New York Mellon as escrow agent with the power to hold and release the funds.

The following month, they appointed three asset management firms - Amundi, Blackrock and Goldman Sachs - to invest those funds into “highly rated euro-denominated fixed income securities”.

Apologies Jim, I Didn't read the article should have done that

Take out ETFs,private equity and gold then. stick to Treasury notes and maybe municipal bonds, stay clear of Europe.

Given the restrictions placed on the investment strategy, one can only wonder why they need three asset managers.... But there really is not much you can do to avoid the losses.

It looks to me a bit like NMTA and Apple are covering their asses - can be help responsible if they followed the typical strategy - bit like buying IBM in the old days.

phantom_lord · 01-10-2019 11:22pm

The lay persons reaction to this news is pretty painful.

pearcider · 01-10-2019 11:33pm

I would’ve put the whole lot into gold which is the only currency that is not subject to devaluation by bankrupt socialist governments.

We’d be sitting on a 4 billion profit. Which would have funded the HSE for four months..

BrokenArrows · 02-10-2019 8:52am

pearcider wrote: »

I would’ve put the whole lot into gold which is the only currency that is not subject to devaluation by bankrupt socialist governments.

We’d be sitting on a 4 billion profit. Which would have funded the HSE for four months..

Or it could have swung the opposite way and have a 4 billion loss.

drunkmonkey · 02-10-2019 9:25am

phantom_lord wrote: »

The lay persons reaction to this news is pretty painful.

Speaking of lay persons reactions, I'm still trying to get my head around these kinda funds quote from Pascal, what funds is he taking about as a place to invest our money.

"“If we do decide to make a change in carbon taxation in Budget 2020, that revenue will then be used in a way to either help people cope with the change they have to make to deal with climate change and changing their behaviour or we will use it in investing in the kinds of funds, the kinds of plans that are helpful for families and for businesses making a change,” he said."

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/finance-minister-paschal-donohoe-plays-down-likelihood-of-10-hike-to-carbon-tax-in-budget-38492977.html

BailMeOut · 02-10-2019 9:59am

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/apple-tax-pot-on-course-to-lose-70m-a-year-awaiting-verdict-cag-38547944.html

So you’re given €14 billion to invest and hopefully make some sweet money for Ireland Inc. while the Apple tax case is underway.

You put three very reputable investment banking firms in charge of the money and yet they manage to lose money on it! I bet their bills for management fees are still being sent regularly.

So clever Boardsies, what would you invest the money in?

That's a loss of 0.5% and the fees alone to manage this would be many times that so this is not a bad return in current climate. The remit here would be to protect the money taking no risks.

phantom_lord · 02-10-2019 10:54am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Speaking of lay persons reactions, I'm still trying to get my head around these kinda funds quote from Pascal, what funds is he taking about as a place to invest our money.

"“If we do decide to make a change in carbon taxation in Budget 2020, that revenue will then be used in a way to either help people cope with the change they have to make to deal with climate change and changing their behaviour or we will use it in investing in the kinds of funds, the kinds of plans that are helpful for families and for businesses making a change,” he said."

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/finance-minister-paschal-donohoe-plays-down-likelihood-of-10-hike-to-carbon-tax-in-budget-38492977.html

Does he mean funding grants for things like improving energy efficiency? Rather than investment funds?

Jim2007 · 02-10-2019 11:19am

pearcider wrote: »

I would’ve put the whole lot into gold which is the only currency that is not subject to devaluation by bankrupt socialist governments.

We’d be sitting on a 4 billion profit. Which would have funded the HSE for four months..

You have to follow the client's requirements. And gold is primarily valued by fear and greed.

drunkmonkey · 02-10-2019 12:10pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

Does he mean funding grants for things like improving energy efficiency? Rather than investment funds?

Maybe that's what he meant, was just the way he said it at the time sounded more like he was off to invest it in funds.
Is there a breakdown anywhere of where they actually invest as I know they said before they were getting out of funds which contained petrol companies that sort of thing.

JMMCapital · 02-10-2019 12:20pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Maybe that's what he meant, was just the way he said it at the time sounded more like he was off to invest it in funds.
Is there a breakdown anywhere of where they actually invest as I know they said before they were getting out of funds which contained petrol companies that sort of thing.

https://www.seai.ie/publications/Energy-in-Ireland-2018.pdf

Gloomtastic! · 02-10-2019 2:37pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

The lay persons reaction to this news is pretty painful.

Hope you can you get Nurofen for your pain up there in your ivory tower. Poor thing.

This lay person doesn't understand why, if the investment environment is really so bad at the moment, they can't just leave it sitting in the escrow account.

phantom_lord · 02-10-2019 8:19pm

Banks charge interest on high deposits. We've been in a negative interest rate environment for a while. It costs money to park money.

There's just been a wide spread reaction of "how could they lose money, what idiots" when it's the commentator that doesn't get it.

Jim2007 · 02-10-2019 8:46pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Hope you can you get Nurofen for your pain up there in your ivory tower. Poor thing.

This lay person doesn't understand why, if the investment environment is really so bad at the moment, they can't just leave it sitting in the escrow account.

We’re still waiting for you to demonstrate knowledge of the topic!

One More Toy · 02-10-2019 8:47pm

Ryanair shares

Gloomtastic! · 02-10-2019 9:48pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

We’re still waiting for you to demonstrate knowledge of the topic!

I have none obviously, that’s why I asked you people!

phantom_lord · 02-10-2019 10:10pm

One More Toy wrote: »

Ryanair shares

Could buy Ryanair. Wouldn't really be a liquid asset though!

Jim2007 · 03-10-2019 12:07pm

One More Toy wrote: »

Ryanair shares

phantom_lord wrote: »

Could buy Ryanair. Wouldn't really be a liquid asset though!

You loose the client since you failed to follow their instructions.....

Equities are excluded by the client's instructions...

Gloomtastic! · 03-10-2019 12:16pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

You loose the client since you failed to follow their instructions.....

Equities are excluded by the client's instructions...

Ok, let's presume I'm the client now. I actually care about Ireland's taxpayers and believe that they should be treated with respect and therefore I instruct the investment bankers - you - to show a return on the €14,000,000,000 that we have in the bank for 12/24 months.

What would you do with it?

edit_me · 03-10-2019 2:50pm

The only place where they can easily put money is bond market. 14 billion position in ryanair or gold would work against them.
Its not your MT4 or degiro account with couple of hundreds or thousands where you can move in and out of position without affecting market.

lleti · 03-10-2019 3:27pm

The 14billion wouldn't be ours anyways, the EU would want some as it's claimed to be theirs.

One More Toy · 03-10-2019 6:16pm

They should have just stuck it in prize bonds at least it would have held its value and even maybe win a prize or two!

phantom_lord · 03-10-2019 6:22pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Ok, let's presume I'm the client now. I actually care about Ireland's taxpayers and believe that they should be treated with respect and therefore I instruct the investment bankers - you - to show a return on the €14,000,000,000 that we have in the bank for 12/24 months.

What would you do with it?

It's not our money yet and won't be for a long time, if ever, hence being in liquid assets. They can't do anything else with it.

Couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery!

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