Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email Niamh on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
New AMA with a US police officer (he's back!). You can ask your questions here

Couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery!

  • 30-09-2019 8:07pm
    #1
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,230 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gloomtastic!


    https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/apple-tax-pot-on-course-to-lose-70m-a-year-awaiting-verdict-cag-38547944.html

    So you’re given €14 billion to invest and hopefully make some sweet money for Ireland Inc. while the Apple tax case is underway.

    You put three very reputable investment banking firms in charge of the money and yet they manage to lose money on it! I bet their bills for management fees are still being sent regularly.

    So clever Boardsies, what would you invest the money in?


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,542 ✭✭✭ delta_bravo


    Prize Bonds


  • Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭ bizidea


    Id organise a piss up in a brewery and invite the whole country


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/apple-tax-pot-on-course-to-lose-70m-a-year-awaiting-verdict-cag-38547944.html

    So you’re given €14 billion to invest and hopefully make some sweet money for Ireland Inc. while the Apple tax case is underway.

    You put three very reputable investment banking firms in charge of the money and yet they manage to lose money on it! I bet their bills for management fees are still being sent regularly.

    So clever Boardsies, what would you invest the money in?

    Total nonsense, that is not what happened. Now go back and read the article and do a bit of research. And maybe when you actually understand the situation and the brief given to the investment managers you’ll be able to make a credible critique of the situation.

    There is a reason why you would do exactly the same as they did in the same situation, although it is unlikely to ever happen. Now you figure out why....


  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ JMMCapital


    Negative yields are no joke. Given the slowdown and negative yield environment I would avoid Europe first of all maybe look at allocating that 14 billion to one or two emerging market ETFs (VWO,EEM etc), private equity (not 100% sure about this as their seems to be a slowdown in this space, PE firms have a lot of cash piled up right now 2.1 trillion if I recall correctly also paying 8,9,10 times cashflow for a business might be quite risky), Treasury notes, Municipal Bonds and maybe keep a small bit in Gold.


  • Registered Users Posts: 212 ✭✭ Mach 3


    For arguments sake let's say the average boardsie start up fund is €1400 after a year the fund would be worth €1380 approx after fees.
    Most would be happy with that as it would cost more in fees if you left it in the bank..


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    JMMCapital wrote: »
    Negative yields are no joke. Given the slowdown and negative yield environment I would avoid Europe first of all maybe look at allocating that 14 billion to one or two emerging market ETFs (VWO,EEM etc), private equity (not 100% sure about this as their seems to be a slowdown in this space, PE firms have a lot of cash piled up right now 2.1 trillion if I recall correctly also paying 8,9,10 times cashflow for a business might be quite risky), Treasury notes, Municipal Bonds and maybe keep a small bit in Gold.

    You just lost the client and are facing a law suite for failing to comply with the client's instructions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ JMMCapital


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    You just lost the client and are facing a law suite for failing to comply with the client's instructions.

    Its report says the National Treasury Management Agency (NTMA) and Apple jointly agreed in May 2018 to appoint the Bank of New York Mellon as escrow agent with the power to hold and release the funds.

    The following month, they appointed three asset management firms - Amundi, Blackrock and Goldman Sachs - to invest those funds into “highly rated euro-denominated fixed income securities”.

    Apologies Jim, I Didn't read the article should have done that :D

    Take out ETFs,private equity and gold then. stick to Treasury notes and maybe municipal bonds, stay clear of Europe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    Doing very well with the €200 billion invested in the banks. Noticed they released the results a year behind. Considering the collapse in share vale we must be €400 billion in the hole by now. The investment can't wash it's face it's costing more to finance then can be recouperated. Is there a case for just selling the lot off.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    JMMCapital wrote: »
    Its report says the National Treasury Management Agency (NTMA) and Apple jointly agreed in May 2018 to appoint the Bank of New York Mellon as escrow agent with the power to hold and release the funds.

    The following month, they appointed three asset management firms - Amundi, Blackrock and Goldman Sachs - to invest those funds into “highly rated euro-denominated fixed income securities”.

    Apologies Jim, I Didn't read the article should have done that :D

    Take out ETFs,private equity and gold then. stick to Treasury notes and maybe municipal bonds, stay clear of Europe.

    Given the restrictions placed on the investment strategy, one can only wonder why they need three asset managers.... But there really is not much you can do to avoid the losses.

    It looks to me a bit like NMTA and Apple are covering their asses - can be help responsible if they followed the typical strategy - bit like buying IBM in the old days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭ phantom_lord


    The lay persons reaction to this news is pretty painful.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ pearcider


    I would’ve put the whole lot into gold which is the only currency that is not subject to devaluation by bankrupt socialist governments.


    We’d be sitting on a 4 billion profit. Which would have funded the HSE for four months..


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,494 ✭✭✭ BrokenArrows


    pearcider wrote: »
    I would’ve put the whole lot into gold which is the only currency that is not subject to devaluation by bankrupt socialist governments.


    We’d be sitting on a 4 billion profit. Which would have funded the HSE for four months..

    Or it could have swung the opposite way and have a 4 billion loss.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    The lay persons reaction to this news is pretty painful.

    Speaking of lay persons reactions, I'm still trying to get my head around these kinda funds quote from Pascal, what funds is he taking about as a place to invest our money.

    "“If we do decide to make a change in carbon taxation in Budget 2020, that revenue will then be used in a way to either help people cope with the change they have to make to deal with climate change and changing their behaviour or we will use it in investing in the kinds of funds, the kinds of plans that are helpful for families and for businesses making a change,” he said."

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/finance-minister-paschal-donohoe-plays-down-likelihood-of-10-hike-to-carbon-tax-in-budget-38492977.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭ BailMeOut


    https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/apple-tax-pot-on-course-to-lose-70m-a-year-awaiting-verdict-cag-38547944.html

    So you’re given €14 billion to invest and hopefully make some sweet money for Ireland Inc. while the Apple tax case is underway.

    You put three very reputable investment banking firms in charge of the money and yet they manage to lose money on it! I bet their bills for management fees are still being sent regularly.

    So clever Boardsies, what would you invest the money in?

    That's a loss of 0.5% and the fees alone to manage this would be many times that so this is not a bad return in current climate. The remit here would be to protect the money taking no risks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭ phantom_lord


    Speaking of lay persons reactions, I'm still trying to get my head around these kinda funds quote from Pascal, what funds is he taking about as a place to invest our money.

    "“If we do decide to make a change in carbon taxation in Budget 2020, that revenue will then be used in a way to either help people cope with the change they have to make to deal with climate change and changing their behaviour or we will use it in investing in the kinds of funds, the kinds of plans that are helpful for families and for businesses making a change,” he said."

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/finance-minister-paschal-donohoe-plays-down-likelihood-of-10-hike-to-carbon-tax-in-budget-38492977.html

    Does he mean funding grants for things like improving energy efficiency? Rather than investment funds?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    pearcider wrote: »
    I would’ve put the whole lot into gold which is the only currency that is not subject to devaluation by bankrupt socialist governments.


    We’d be sitting on a 4 billion profit. Which would have funded the HSE for four months..

    You have to follow the client's requirements. And gold is primarily valued by fear and greed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    Does he mean funding grants for things like improving energy efficiency? Rather than investment funds?

    Maybe that's what he meant, was just the way he said it at the time sounded more like he was off to invest it in funds.
    Is there a breakdown anywhere of where they actually invest as I know they said before they were getting out of funds which contained petrol companies that sort of thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ JMMCapital


    Maybe that's what he meant, was just the way he said it at the time sounded more like he was off to invest it in funds.
    Is there a breakdown anywhere of where they actually invest as I know they said before they were getting out of funds which contained petrol companies that sort of thing.

    https://www.seai.ie/publications/Energy-in-Ireland-2018.pdf


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,230 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gloomtastic!


    The lay persons reaction to this news is pretty painful.

    Hope you can you get Nurofen for your pain up there in your ivory tower. Poor thing. :p

    This lay person doesn't understand why, if the investment environment is really so bad at the moment, they can't just leave it sitting in the escrow account. :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭ phantom_lord


    Banks charge interest on high deposits. We've been in a negative interest rate environment for a while. It costs money to park money.


    There's just been a wide spread reaction of "how could they lose money, what idiots" when it's the commentator that doesn't get it.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    Hope you can you get Nurofen for your pain up there in your ivory tower. Poor thing. :p

    This lay person doesn't understand why, if the investment environment is really so bad at the moment, they can't just leave it sitting in the escrow account. :confused:

    We’re still waiting for you to demonstrate knowledge of the topic!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭ One More Toy


    Ryanair shares


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,230 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gloomtastic!


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    We’re still waiting for you to demonstrate knowledge of the topic!

    I have none obviously, that’s why I asked you people! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭ phantom_lord


    Ryanair shares

    Could buy Ryanair. Wouldn't really be a liquid asset though!


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    Ryanair shares
    Could buy Ryanair. Wouldn't really be a liquid asset though!

    You loose the client since you failed to follow their instructions.....

    Equities are excluded by the client's instructions...


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,230 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gloomtastic!


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    You loose the client since you failed to follow their instructions.....

    Equities are excluded by the client's instructions...

    Ok, let's presume I'm the client now. I actually care about Ireland's taxpayers and believe that they should be treated with respect and therefore I instruct the investment bankers - you - to show a return on the €14,000,000,000 that we have in the bank for 12/24 months.

    What would you do with it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭✭✭ edit_me


    The only place where they can easily put money is bond market. 14 billion position in ryanair or gold would work against them.
    Its not your MT4 or degiro account with couple of hundreds or thousands where you can move in and out of position without affecting market.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 271 ✭✭ lleti


    The 14billion wouldn't be ours anyways, the EU would want some as it's claimed to be theirs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭ One More Toy


    They should have just stuck it in prize bonds at least it would have held its value and even maybe win a prize or two!


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭ phantom_lord


    Ok, let's presume I'm the client now. I actually care about Ireland's taxpayers and believe that they should be treated with respect and therefore I instruct the investment bankers - you - to show a return on the €14,000,000,000 that we have in the bank for 12/24 months.

    What would you do with it?

    It's not our money yet and won't be for a long time, if ever, hence being in liquid assets. They can't do anything else with it.


Advertisement