Which will be punished more in the next 10 years, diesel or petrol cars?

novaboy80 · 24-09-2019 11:56AM #1

Hi, I'm looking to purchase a used car, 08 for the cheaper tax (is this to remain for the foreseeable future?), have a honda at the moment and would like to stay with honda, I'm torn between a civic hatch 1.8 petrol which are very Economical (for a petrol) and a crv 2.2 diesel suv, my mileage less than 11k miles per year (17.6k km), mostly country roads, 15 min to work.

Is the government going to be tougher on diesel cars in the coming years with higher motor tax and price of diesel per litre, or will it be petrol cars, or both?

Thanks in advance.

drunkmonkey · 24-09-2019 12:07PM

It might even itself out. It they up the cost of fuel it might drive down the respective car prices. So you may pay more for fuel but less for the car.

endainoz · 24-09-2019 12:16PM

If say diesel definitely, car manufacturers are phasing out diesel cars already.

ShiverinEskimo · 24-09-2019 12:21PM

For the government to get tough on Diesel they also end up being tough on business and hauliage which they will be very reluctant to do especially with Brexit due to dominate the coming years in some way. More and more hauliers will be bringing stuff to the continent and back rather than the UK meaning longer drives, higher transports costs. For the govt to target Diesel in the middle of that would be economic hari kari imo.

The govt will push for more and more electric cars but trucks are king for the economy so diesel will be left relatively alone imo.

NIMAN · 24-09-2019 12:24PM

Diesel will be targeted first, then when they have killed off those sales, petrol will be next.

colm_mcm · 24-09-2019 12:38PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Diesel will be targeted first, then when they have killed off those sales, petrol will be next.

In the context of someone buying an 11 year old diesel and worried about the future though?

NIMAN · 24-09-2019 02:07PM

I still see diesel being targeted fairly soon.

I would be very surprised if you don't see duty on fuel increasing, over and above that on petrol.

Also can see the motor tax increasing too for diesels to try to curb sales.

How fast this will happen is another question, politicians always think about their job before many decisions.

As for the OP, admittedly buying an old, cheap diesel might not cost much up front but I'm sure they will see increased costs in running in the coming years, but in the great scheme of things probably manageable.

djan · 24-09-2019 02:15PM

I'm also in the same bout about the next purchase.

My thinking is that the gov can only increase the cost of diesel so much before the pushback from business is too large.

Motor tax will surely be measured by harmful pollutants rather than the quite harmless Co2, but I assume they would not do this retrospectively so would be a similar set up as the 07 tax change?

I guess one way they could hamstring diesel cars is by increasing tax on the fuel a lot but making it a deductible expense in business.

There is just such a small 2nd hand market for premium petrols so its the only way to go in a lot of cases...

Widdensushi · 24-09-2019 02:17PM

they are very different sized cars, presume that the running costs of the crv are going to be higher no matter what engine. The 2.2 engine have a good reputation. It depends which car fits your needs as much as anything. You seem to be thinking longterm so it's unlikely that resale value will be a factor.

novaboy80 · 24-09-2019 02:30PM

Yep, I must sound like a cheapskate but what about it, I've spent enough money on cars over the years and am now more mature and don't really feel the need to impress anyone with my wheels, my last car I paid €950.00 for and had it for 7 years, cost me very little in repairs, and any of them were just normal wear and tear items.

To me, a 3 grand car is above low end, admittedly, just about.

Could possibly get 5 - 10 yrs out of it if I got a good one and minded it.

My dilemma is not knowing what legislation may come in, could end up paying pre 2008 Road tax on a big 2.2 litre engine, also if diesel rockets in price for non self employed drivers, that would have all been money down the drain.

Has me leaning towards petrol as it's the lesser evil and may not suffer as severely in future clamp downs, as petrol will be continued to be used in big numbers by hybrid car owners.

drunkmonkey · 24-09-2019 02:45PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Diesel will be targeted first, then when they have killed off those sales, petrol will be next.

Possibly but your taking 10yrs down the road. Was it Leo said 1million EV's on the road by 2030. To keep on track of that target he needs to be at about 91,000 EV sales by the end of this year, he'll be lucky to hit 2500, so the target rolling into 2020 is just shy of 180,000 sales for the year. The cars simply aren't there to be bought unless you've got 40/60k to drop on a new car.
This idea he's going to tax diesel and petrol out of existence is more clown world politics. He can't do it without hitting the most at risk of price rises first.

bazz26 · 24-09-2019 03:05PM

Revenue has also to be maintained. EVs are not going to be cheap to run forever as it's totally unsustainable from a tax revenue point. One less diesel or petrol car on the road means one less revenue stream in the coffers. They are already talking about doing away with the grants because again it's not sustainable. How will sections of the public service be funded if everyone switches to subsidized electric vehicles that bring very little in the way of revenue?

The entire thing is up in the air at the moment and I honestly think the Government don't have any concrete plan around how they are going to tax these cars but you can be sure that the motorist will pay no matter what form or term they give it.

NIMAN · 24-09-2019 04:01PM

In the future I can see there being a simple car tax. You basically pay for owning one.
This way, the Gov keeps its revenue.

Whether its an ICE car or an EV, doesn't matter. As said, if there are 1 million EVs in 15 years time, the Gov can't lose that revenue, so EVs will have to be taxed like diesels are now.

The welfare system, schools, teachers, guards, roads, hospitals etc all still have to be paid for, and the motorist brings in a lot of revenue.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 25-09-2019 08:50AM

novaboy80 wrote: »

Hi, I'm looking to purchase a used car, 08 for the cheaper tax (is this to remain for the foreseeable future?), have a honda at the moment and would like to stay with honda, I'm torn between a civic hatch 1.8 petrol which are very Economical (for a petrol) and a crv 2.2 diesel suv, my mileage less than 11k miles per year (17.6k km), mostly country roads, 15 min to work.

Is the government going to be tougher on diesel cars in the coming years with higher motor tax and price of diesel per litre, or will it be petrol cars, or both?

Thanks in advance.

If the HRV is 2008-2014 then you'll be paying €750 tax on it and It'll be less economical than the 1.8 civic so I don't see why you are even considering it...

KaneToad · 25-09-2019 03:00PM

Apart from the national haulage fleet, there are an awful lot of diesel engines outside of the greater Dublin area. These areas have very little, if any, public transport. They have minimal employment opportunities and residents are usually required to travel distances to employment.

Politicians know this. This is why there is not an all out assault on the diesel engine by current and past govts. With a country so finely divided between FF & FG, an assault on diesel would drive these voters seamlessly from one party to the other.

farna_boy · 25-09-2019 04:20PM

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

For the government to get tough on Diesel they also end up being tough on business and hauliage which they will be very reluctant to do especially with Brexit due to dominate the coming years in some way. More and more hauliers will be bringing stuff to the continent and back rather than the UK meaning longer drives, higher transports costs. For the govt to target Diesel in the middle of that would be economic hari kari imo.

The govt will push for more and more electric cars but trucks are king for the economy so diesel will be left relatively alone imo.

I've seen this quoted a lot but I don't understand why the government wouldn't just give hauliers a tax rebate or tax break on any extra tax that is placed on the normal tax payer?

This tax break/rebate could also then in time be reduced to encourage (force) haulier to go green or move away from diesel

zilog_jones · 26-09-2019 10:08AM

There's already a Diesel Rebate Scheme for hauliers

Idbatterim · 26-09-2019 12:00PM

I reckon they will start closing the gap between petrol and diesel from this budget. But like a lobster , they’ll do it over a few budgets, particularly coming into an election year. Don’t always be fooled by the cheaper tax , their total cost of ownership may not be cheaper. You’ll likely have higher purchase price (depreciation)and bigger loan repayments ( if applicable )

Philb76 · 26-09-2019 02:32PM

Evs owners still pay motor tax so that revenue stream will always be there

Idbatterim · 26-09-2019 03:17PM

they sure as hell wont do anything dramatic here with increases in cost of fuel or tax, thats for sure. Will it get more expensive? yes no doubt. Will these cost increases come even close to what depreciation and finance cost on most cars? no...

ELM327 · 26-09-2019 03:21PM

farna_boy wrote: »

I've seen this quoted a lot but I don't understand why the government wouldn't just give hauliers a tax rebate or tax break on any extra tax that is placed on the normal tax payer?

This tax break/rebate could also then in time be reduced to encourage (force) haulier to go green or move away from diesel

I think it may, but not in the way you intended.

zilog_jones wrote: »

There's already a Diesel Rebate Scheme for hauliers

Yeah, a couple of cents per liter if you meet the stringent qualifications. Not worth the paper its written on

zilog_jones · 27-09-2019 09:20AM

But the facility for a rebate already exists, so if they did want to penalise non-commercial road diesel use they could make changes to the rebate without too much work.

djan · 27-09-2019 10:23AM

I think people forget that most cars on Irish roads are diesels. The government can talk about being "green" and lowering emissions all they want but once the threshold of taxation is too high, the parties promoting it just won't be voted in.

Think of the sh1tstorm that the water charges brought about.

bazz26 · 27-09-2019 04:55PM

Climate change/green is Government talk for justifying more taxes.

ELM327 · 27-09-2019 04:58PM

We already have green diesel, and it's cheaper than the dirty white stuff too.

Idbatterim · 27-09-2019 05:24PM

laughable timing on this! there wont be anything like the water issue, despite the fact FG have not wanted to increase carbon tax etc for political reasons, they will now have too, not just to raise more finance which they desperately need, but they cant be seen to be doing nothing on the environment now either, not now that voters in the locals, expressed far more of an interest in it than ever before.. they have been given the open door to increase taxation on fuel, and I personally agree with it. They made a huge mistake regarding diesels and particularly the taxation surrounding it...

Air quality: parts of Dublin city on course to breach EU guidelines 25.09.19 from the Irish Times

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/air-quality-parts-of-dublin-city-on-course-to-breach-eu-guidelines-1.4029221

Shefwedfan · 27-09-2019 06:11PM

KaneToad wrote: »

Apart from the national haulage fleet, there are an awful lot of diesel engines outside of the greater Dublin area. These areas have very little, if any, public transport. They have minimal employment opportunities and residents are usually required to travel distances to employment.

Politicians know this. This is why there is not an all out assault on the diesel engine by current and past govts. With a country so finely divided between FF & FG, an assault on diesel would drive these voters seamlessly from one party to the other.

The argument could be valid....except Ireland is one of the smallest land masses in Europe but has one of the highest concentration of diesel engines in Europe.....

Spain which has the longest average distance per journey in car, has gone from 67% diesel in 2013 to 48% in 2017 in new cars bought.....

UK....50% to 42%

Germany.....48% to 39% over same period
Ireland from 72% to 68% in the same period

IN 2017.....Ireland had the highest percentage of new diesel car bought in the whole of Europe. The EU average is 36% of diesel cars. Ireland is nearly double

The argument for diesel in Ireland doesn't really stand up. Maybe 5% of the country might need diesel. Not 68%

NIMAN · 27-09-2019 06:16PM

djan wrote: »

Think of the sh1tstorm that the water charges brought about.

Getting voted in again takes precedence over climate change, that's for sure.

The water charges showed Irish people are in no way concerned about conservation. They will moan about carbon taxes increases as well. And diesel being taxed more.

And on it goes. Joe Public talks a good game, but when it comes to the crunch, conservation and climate change can feck off if it's going to cost him more.

ShiverinEskimo · 27-09-2019 07:05PM

The problem in Ireland is the centralisation in Dublin. More and more people living further and further away and commuting to dublin to work because too many jobs are in Dublin.

Decentralise, incentivise rural-based job creation and remove the height restriction for new residential buildings in Dublin and you might start to see the reliance on diesel fade.

No hybrid can touch diesel for mileage over 60kms or so each way. Until that changes, Ireland will continue it's reliance on diesel engines until manufacturers stop selling them and family-sized cars are able to travel a few hundred kilometres without costing 100 grand.

Shefwedfan · 27-09-2019 09:37PM

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

The problem in Ireland is the centralisation in Dublin. More and more people living further and further away and commuting to dublin to work because too many jobs are in Dublin.

Decentralise, incentivise rural-based job creation and remove the height restriction for new residential buildings in Dublin and you might start to see the reliance on diesel fade.

No hybrid can touch diesel for mileage over 60kms or so each way. Until that changes, Ireland will continue it's reliance on diesel engines until manufacturers stop selling them and family-sized cars are able to travel a few hundred kilometres without costing 100 grand.

60km is tiny....no reason for anyone to drive a diesel for such a short distance. Plus if you are talking about driving into Dublin how many of those are at motorway speed?

Not sure what the 100k is about?

ShiverinEskimo · 27-09-2019 10:08PM

I mean if someone's commute is regularly over 60kms into Dublin on the motorway where there's little to no breaking recovery a hybrid won't save you as much as diesel.

I do 82kms each way. No hybrid is getting close to the mileage I'm getting.

The only fullsized fully electric car available that also has long enough range is the upper-end Teslas costing in the region of €100,000.

Which will be punished more in the next 10 years, diesel or petrol cars?

Comments