Which will be punished more in the next 10 years, diesel or petrol cars?

novaboy80

Hi, I'm looking to purchase a used car, 08 for the cheaper tax (is this to remain for the foreseeable future?), have a honda at the moment and would like to stay with honda, I'm torn between a civic hatch 1.8 petrol which are very Economical (for a petrol) and a crv 2.2 diesel suv, my mileage less than 11k miles per year (17.6k km), mostly country roads, 15 min to work.

Is the government going to be tougher on diesel cars in the coming years with higher motor tax and price of diesel per litre, or will it be petrol cars, or both?

Thanks in advance.

drunkmonkey

It might even itself out. It they up the cost of fuel it might drive down the respective car prices. So you may pay more for fuel but less for the car.

endainoz

If say diesel definitely, car manufacturers are phasing out diesel cars already.

ShiverinEskimo

For the government to get tough on Diesel they also end up being tough on business and hauliage which they will be very reluctant to do especially with Brexit due to dominate the coming years in some way. More and more hauliers will be bringing stuff to the continent and back rather than the UK meaning longer drives, higher transports costs. For the govt to target Diesel in the middle of that would be economic hari kari imo.

The govt will push for more and more electric cars but trucks are king for the economy so diesel will be left relatively alone imo.

NIMAN

Diesel will be targeted first, then when they have killed off those sales, petrol will be next.

colm_mcm

NIMAN wrote: »

Diesel will be targeted first, then when they have killed off those sales, petrol will be next.

In the context of someone buying an 11 year old diesel and worried about the future though?

NIMAN

I still see diesel being targeted fairly soon.

I would be very surprised if you don't see duty on fuel increasing, over and above that on petrol.

Also can see the motor tax increasing too for diesels to try to curb sales.

How fast this will happen is another question, politicians always think about their job before many decisions.

As for the OP, admittedly buying an old, cheap diesel might not cost much up front but I'm sure they will see increased costs in running in the coming years, but in the great scheme of things probably manageable.

djan

I'm also in the same bout about the next purchase.

My thinking is that the gov can only increase the cost of diesel so much before the pushback from business is too large.

Motor tax will surely be measured by harmful pollutants rather than the quite harmless Co2, but I assume they would not do this retrospectively so would be a similar set up as the 07 tax change?

I guess one way they could hamstring diesel cars is by increasing tax on the fuel a lot but making it a deductible expense in business.

There is just such a small 2nd hand market for premium petrols so its the only way to go in a lot of cases...

Widdensushi

they are very different sized cars, presume that the running costs of the crv are going to be higher no matter what engine. The 2.2 engine have a good reputation. It depends which car fits your needs as much as anything. You seem to be thinking longterm so it's unlikely that resale value will be a factor.

novaboy80

Yep, I must sound like a cheapskate but what about it, I've spent enough money on cars over the years and am now more mature and don't really feel the need to impress anyone with my wheels, my last car I paid €950.00 for and had it for 7 years, cost me very little in repairs, and any of them were just normal wear and tear items.

To me, a 3 grand car is above low end, admittedly, just about.

Could possibly get 5 - 10 yrs out of it if I got a good one and minded it.

My dilemma is not knowing what legislation may come in, could end up paying pre 2008 Road tax on a big 2.2 litre engine, also if diesel rockets in price for non self employed drivers, that would have all been money down the drain.

Has me leaning towards petrol as it's the lesser evil and may not suffer as severely in future clamp downs, as petrol will be continued to be used in big numbers by hybrid car owners.

drunkmonkey

NIMAN wrote: »

Diesel will be targeted first, then when they have killed off those sales, petrol will be next.

Possibly but your taking 10yrs down the road. Was it Leo said 1million EV's on the road by 2030. To keep on track of that target he needs to be at about 91,000 EV sales by the end of this year, he'll be lucky to hit 2500, so the target rolling into 2020 is just shy of 180,000 sales for the year. The cars simply aren't there to be bought unless you've got 40/60k to drop on a new car.
This idea he's going to tax diesel and petrol out of existence is more clown world politics. He can't do it without hitting the most at risk of price rises first.

bazz26

Revenue has also to be maintained. EVs are not going to be cheap to run forever as it's totally unsustainable from a tax revenue point. One less diesel or petrol car on the road means one less revenue stream in the coffers. They are already talking about doing away with the grants because again it's not sustainable. How will sections of the public service be funded if everyone switches to subsidized electric vehicles that bring very little in the way of revenue?

The entire thing is up in the air at the moment and I honestly think the Government don't have any concrete plan around how they are going to tax these cars but you can be sure that the motorist will pay no matter what form or term they give it.

NIMAN

In the future I can see there being a simple car tax. You basically pay for owning one.
This way, the Gov keeps its revenue.

Whether its an ICE car or an EV, doesn't matter. As said, if there are 1 million EVs in 15 years time, the Gov can't lose that revenue, so EVs will have to be taxed like diesels are now.

The welfare system, schools, teachers, guards, roads, hospitals etc all still have to be paid for, and the motorist brings in a lot of revenue.

Cee-Jay-Cee

novaboy80 wrote: »

Hi, I'm looking to purchase a used car, 08 for the cheaper tax (is this to remain for the foreseeable future?), have a honda at the moment and would like to stay with honda, I'm torn between a civic hatch 1.8 petrol which are very Economical (for a petrol) and a crv 2.2 diesel suv, my mileage less than 11k miles per year (17.6k km), mostly country roads, 15 min to work.

Is the government going to be tougher on diesel cars in the coming years with higher motor tax and price of diesel per litre, or will it be petrol cars, or both?

Thanks in advance.

If the HRV is 2008-2014 then you'll be paying €750 tax on it and It'll be less economical than the 1.8 civic so I don't see why you are even considering it...

KaneToad

Apart from the national haulage fleet, there are an awful lot of diesel engines outside of the greater Dublin area. These areas have very little, if any, public transport. They have minimal employment opportunities and residents are usually required to travel distances to employment.

Politicians know this. This is why there is not an all out assault on the diesel engine by current and past govts. With a country so finely divided between FF & FG, an assault on diesel would drive these voters seamlessly from one party to the other.

farna_boy

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

For the government to get tough on Diesel they also end up being tough on business and hauliage which they will be very reluctant to do especially with Brexit due to dominate the coming years in some way. More and more hauliers will be bringing stuff to the continent and back rather than the UK meaning longer drives, higher transports costs. For the govt to target Diesel in the middle of that would be economic hari kari imo.

The govt will push for more and more electric cars but trucks are king for the economy so diesel will be left relatively alone imo.

I've seen this quoted a lot but I don't understand why the government wouldn't just give hauliers a tax rebate or tax break on any extra tax that is placed on the normal tax payer?

This tax break/rebate could also then in time be reduced to encourage (force) haulier to go green or move away from diesel

zilog_jones

There's already a Diesel Rebate Scheme for hauliers

Idbatterim

I reckon they will start closing the gap between petrol and diesel from this budget. But like a lobster , they’ll do it over a few budgets, particularly coming into an election year. Don’t always be fooled by the cheaper tax , their total cost of ownership may not be cheaper. You’ll likely have higher purchase price (depreciation)and bigger loan repayments ( if applicable )

Philb76

Evs owners still pay motor tax so that revenue stream will always be there

Idbatterim

they sure as hell wont do anything dramatic here with increases in cost of fuel or tax, thats for sure. Will it get more expensive? yes no doubt. Will these cost increases come even close to what depreciation and finance cost on most cars? no...

ELM327

farna_boy wrote: »

I've seen this quoted a lot but I don't understand why the government wouldn't just give hauliers a tax rebate or tax break on any extra tax that is placed on the normal tax payer?

This tax break/rebate could also then in time be reduced to encourage (force) haulier to go green or move away from diesel

I think it may, but not in the way you intended.

zilog_jones wrote: »

There's already a Diesel Rebate Scheme for hauliers

Yeah, a couple of cents per liter if you meet the stringent qualifications. Not worth the paper its written on

zilog_jones

But the facility for a rebate already exists, so if they did want to penalise non-commercial road diesel use they could make changes to the rebate without too much work.

djan

I think people forget that most cars on Irish roads are diesels. The government can talk about being "green" and lowering emissions all they want but once the threshold of taxation is too high, the parties promoting it just won't be voted in.

Think of the sh1tstorm that the water charges brought about.

bazz26

Climate change/green is Government talk for justifying more taxes.

ELM327

We already have green diesel, and it's cheaper than the dirty white stuff too.

Idbatterim

laughable timing on this! there wont be anything like the water issue, despite the fact FG have not wanted to increase carbon tax etc for political reasons, they will now have too, not just to raise more finance which they desperately need, but they cant be seen to be doing nothing on the environment now either, not now that voters in the locals, expressed far more of an interest in it than ever before.. they have been given the open door to increase taxation on fuel, and I personally agree with it. They made a huge mistake regarding diesels and particularly the taxation surrounding it...


Air quality: parts of Dublin city on course to breach EU guidelines 25.09.19 from the Irish Times

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/air-quality-parts-of-dublin-city-on-course-to-breach-eu-guidelines-1.4029221

Shefwedfan

KaneToad wrote: »

Apart from the national haulage fleet, there are an awful lot of diesel engines outside of the greater Dublin area. These areas have very little, if any, public transport. They have minimal employment opportunities and residents are usually required to travel distances to employment.

Politicians know this. This is why there is not an all out assault on the diesel engine by current and past govts. With a country so finely divided between FF & FG, an assault on diesel would drive these voters seamlessly from one party to the other.

The argument could be valid....except Ireland is one of the smallest land masses in Europe but has one of the highest concentration of diesel engines in Europe.....

Spain which has the longest average distance per journey in car, has gone from 67% diesel in 2013 to 48% in 2017 in new cars bought.....

UK....50% to 42%

Germany.....48% to 39% over same period
Ireland from 72% to 68% in the same period

IN 2017.....Ireland had the highest percentage of new diesel car bought in the whole of Europe. The EU average is 36% of diesel cars. Ireland is nearly double

The argument for diesel in Ireland doesn't really stand up. Maybe 5% of the country might need diesel. Not 68%

NIMAN

djan wrote: »

Think of the sh1tstorm that the water charges brought about.

Getting voted in again takes precedence over climate change, that's for sure.

The water charges showed Irish people are in no way concerned about conservation. They will moan about carbon taxes increases as well. And diesel being taxed more.

And on it goes. Joe Public talks a good game, but when it comes to the crunch, conservation and climate change can feck off if it's going to cost him more.

ShiverinEskimo

The problem in Ireland is the centralisation in Dublin. More and more people living further and further away and commuting to dublin to work because too many jobs are in Dublin.

Decentralise, incentivise rural-based job creation and remove the height restriction for new residential buildings in Dublin and you might start to see the reliance on diesel fade.

No hybrid can touch diesel for mileage over 60kms or so each way. Until that changes, Ireland will continue it's reliance on diesel engines until manufacturers stop selling them and family-sized cars are able to travel a few hundred kilometres without costing 100 grand.

Shefwedfan

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

The problem in Ireland is the centralisation in Dublin. More and more people living further and further away and commuting to dublin to work because too many jobs are in Dublin.

Decentralise, incentivise rural-based job creation and remove the height restriction for new residential buildings in Dublin and you might start to see the reliance on diesel fade.

No hybrid can touch diesel for mileage over 60kms or so each way. Until that changes, Ireland will continue it's reliance on diesel engines until manufacturers stop selling them and family-sized cars are able to travel a few hundred kilometres without costing 100 grand.

60km is tiny....no reason for anyone to drive a diesel for such a short distance. Plus if you are talking about driving into Dublin how many of those are at motorway speed?

Not sure what the 100k is about?

ShiverinEskimo

I mean if someone's commute is regularly over 60kms into Dublin on the motorway where there's little to no breaking recovery a hybrid won't save you as much as diesel.

I do 82kms each way. No hybrid is getting close to the mileage I'm getting.

The only fullsized fully electric car available that also has long enough range is the upper-end Teslas costing in the region of €100,000.

Shefwedfan

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

I mean if someone's commute is regularly over 60kms into Dublin on the motorway where there's little to no breaking recovery a hybrid won't save you as much as diesel.

I do 82kms each way. No hybrid is getting close to the mileage I'm getting.

The only fullsized fully electric car available that also has long enough range is the upper-end Teslas costing in the region of €100,000.

Have you tested a hybrid? Just interested what sort of ltr/100 you would get?

What do you classify as full sized?

Idbatterim

And what if you start hitting traffic twenty km outside Dublin and crawl in atop start for ages ? Diesel not as good. Not good on short trips either

ShiverinEskimo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Have you tested a hybrid? Just interested what sort of ltr/100 you would get?

What do you classify as full sized?

Family saloon/estate. Family of 4 plus dog.

I get 4.9l/100 with the diesel estate. A small/compact hybrid will be around 5.6l/100 on the motorway due to the lack of recovery braking.

I do approx 50k kilometres a year. Rarely hit traffic due to the times I travel. Also the cheaper per litre diesel prices widen the gap. Hybrids just aren't there yet for distance.

HailSatan

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

. Also the cheaper per litre diesel prices widen the gap.

I love the way people still take diesel being cheaper than petrol as some fundamental law of the universe

Dravokivich

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The argument could be valid....except Ireland is one of the smallest land masses in Europe but has one of the highest concentration of diesel engines in Europe.....

Spain which has the longest average distance per journey in car, has gone from 67% diesel in 2013 to 48% in 2017 in new cars bought.....

UK....50% to 42%

Germany.....48% to 39% over same period
Ireland from 72% to 68% in the same period

IN 2017.....Ireland had the highest percentage of new diesel car bought in the whole of Europe. The EU average is 36% of diesel cars. Ireland is nearly double

The argument for diesel in Ireland doesn't really stand up. Maybe 5% of the country might need diesel. Not 68%

I think you should look at what the 32% is made up of. I'd suspect it's the likes of cars in the same class as aygos and yaris'. When I was looking for a car 2nd hand last year, everything for the class of car I was looking for in my budget was just diesel.

HailSatan

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think you should look at what the 32% is made up of. I'd suspect it's the likes of cars in the same class as aygos and yaris'. When I was looking for a car 2nd hand last year, everything for the class of car I was looking for in my budget was just diesel.

We will be over a decade more unwinding ourselves from the green party's "low emissions" booboo

SteM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

60km is tiny....no reason for anyone to drive a diesel for such a short distance. Plus if you are talking about driving into Dublin how many of those are at motorway speed?

This is the exact issue. I live in tallaght and have neighbours that commute from here to the city every day. They insist that they need a diesel for a commute that is 15km each way. There are thousands of diesel cars on the road in Dublin city that don't need to be there. Every owner will insist that they need one though.

HailSatan

But diesel is low emissions. That's that they were told. Why would there be so many incentives if they weren't?

Why would a litre of diesel be cheaper if of produced MORE CO2 and all sorts of toxic cancerous things the greens didn't regard as emissions?


(sarcasm BTW)

HailSatan

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

I get 4.9l/100 with the diesel estate. A small/compact hybrid will be around 5.6l/100 on the motorway due to the lack of recovery braking.

I do approx 50k kilometres a year. Rarely hit traffic due to the times I travel. Also the cheaper per litre diesel prices widen the gap. Hybrids just aren't there yet for distance.

So you're saying that you produce slightly more CO2 per journey and pay less due to green party policies. Before you even consider the other diesel emissions.

Nice

ShiverinEskimo

HailSatan wrote: »

I love the way people still take diesel being cheaper than petrol as some fundamental law of the universe

At present. I'm not locked into diesel for the rest of my days. :rolleyes:

HailSatan wrote: »

So you're saying that you produce slightly more CO2 per journey and pay less due to green party policies. Before you even consider the other diesel emissions.

Nice

A fine example of why the policies are incorrect and why, for many reasons, the advancement in large electric vehicles in the lower price brackets will be very welcome, particularly by me.

Taxation won't solve this problem. Technology has to.

is_that_so

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

At present. I'm not locked into diesel for the rest of my days. :rolleyes:



A fine example of why the policies are incorrect and why, for many reasons, the advancement in large electric vehicles in the lower price brackets will be very welcome, particularly by me.

Taxation won't solve this problem. Technology has to.

I think the approach to fossil fuel vehicles will turn out to be gradual. Sure we have a date for a ban but there's no reason that may not be eased out once we get to a critical mass on electric. Technology can unquestionably address issues around public transport and logistics a lot more quickly.

farna_boy

is_that_so wrote: »

I think the approach to fossil fuel vehicles will turn out to be gradual. Sure we have a date for a ban but there's no reason that may not be eased out once we get to a critical mass on electric. Technology can unquestionably address issues around public transport and logistics a lot more quickly.

If the government was serious about climate change, I think they should change all public transport to zero emissions by 2023 including trains and buses.

That way people would know it's not just another taxation gig and that any taxes are actually going towards reducing emissions rather than lining their own pockets.

HailSatan

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Taxation won't solve this problem.

Taxataion aka the Green Party is exactly why you are paying less to produce more pollution.

Polluter pays is a perfectly reasonable approach to a pollution problem. It would take the green party to **** up a very simple concept and make pollution worse.

FishOnABike

With just over 2 million cars on Irish roads and annual sales of approx. 125k, it's going to take about 16 years before the glut of unsuitable diesel cars, introduced through the last ten years of ill thought out tax regulations, are finally consigned to history.

Replacing cars before they would otherwise naturally reach their end of life is not environmentally friendly due to the energy and resources already invested in the car during manufacture.

Until the approx €20k premium an EV commands over the equivalent petrol or diesel model is eliminated there won't be a major shift to buying an EV.

The price of a new EV needs to be near parity with the equivalent petrol or diesel model and these need to trickle down to the used market. Simply increasing carbon taxes won't do anything other than fleece people who have no other real choice.

If the government want people to move away from petrol and diesel they need to do something more imaginative than simply exploit the situation to line their own coffers.

HailSatan

FishOnABike wrote: »

With just over 2 million cars on Irish roads and annual sales of approx. 125k, it's going to take about 16 years before the glut of unsuitable diesel cars, introduced through the last ten years of ill thought out tax regulations, are finally consigned to history.

Replacing cars before they would otherwise naturally reach their end of life is not environmentally friendly due to the energy and resources already invested in the car during manufacture.

Until the approx €20k premium an EV commands over the equivalent petrol or diesel model is eliminated there won't be a major shift to buying an EV.

The price of a new EV needs to be near parity with the equivalent petrol or diesel model and these need to trickle down to the used market. Simply increasing carbon taxes won't do anything other than fleece people who have no other real choice.

If the government want people to move away from petrol and diesel they need to do something more imaginative than simply exploit the situation to line their own coffers.

There's a fella here claiming he can't reduce his CO2 and NOx and SOx and PM because tax is forcing him to drive a 4.9l/100km diesel over a 5.6l/100km petrol hybrid.

That's green party policy.

We could fix that right now.

Yes we are decade behind thanks to the green party but we can't wait till somebody makes a practically free zero emissions car that runs forever.


We have options now to start unravelling the green party cluster****. Let's so SOMETHING to reduce pollution

is_that_so

farna_boy wrote: »

If the government was serious about climate change, I think they should change all public transport to zero emissions by 2023 including trains and buses.

That way people would know it's not just another taxation gig and that any taxes are actually going towards reducing emissions rather than lining their own pockets.

I don't disagree and it should be a lot easier to implement than the very ambitious car targets. In addition, I think it would be useful for any government to spell out what it will cost us. Getting the public to buy into it is a key element.

NIMAN

How come Eamon Ryan isn't slaughtered about this debacle every time he is in the media.

I never remember any interviewer asking him to explain the GP advocating diesels a decade ago.

Professor Genius

Wouldn’t touch diesel with a long barge pole

Shefwedfan

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Family saloon/estate. Family of 4 plus dog.

I get 4.9l/100 with the diesel estate. A small/compact hybrid will be around 5.6l/100 on the motorway due to the lack of recovery braking.

I do approx 50k kilometres a year. Rarely hit traffic due to the times I travel. Also the cheaper per litre diesel prices widen the gap. Hybrids just aren't there yet for distance.

I do find it strange that ireland seems to be perfect conditions for diesels....every diesel in the country seems to run at 4.xltr/100km.....

I drove diesel for years, I have a commute of 100km each way and had loads of diesel....none of them got near 4.X....I had BMW, Audi, Ford, Vw, Saab etc....

Even the manufacturer unrealistic figures in brochure just about hit 4.xltr/100km.....

I would never have expected wind and rain would be perfect for diesel

liamog

Let's not forget in 2008 CO2 was the bogey man.

Per km diesels emit less CO2 than petrol, and a criminal conspiracy of manufacturers manipulated engine emissions to encourage the myth of clean diesels. They managed to hoodwink governments all around Europe.

Yet somehow we solely place the blame at the feet of the Green party who somehow should of known better than multiple other regulators and governments within Europe.