peaktime.ie - IE Service to incentivise staggered commutes

cherryghost · 23-09-2019 10:06am #1

This is a solution IE are proposing to DART commuters to avoid peak time overcrowding. It's hilarious and depressing at the same time.

“Peaktime.ie will show commuters who are in a position to alter commuting times how a change of even ten minutes in some instances will find quieter trains,” a company spokesperson said.

The information on the website will be expanded in the coming months to include all commuter trains in the greater Dublin area.

I'm fairly sure that people who have the option to alter commuting times don't go at peak anyway (everyone I know already does this). Are they really targeting this demographic or are they just out of resources to allocate more capacity and driving this drivel to commuters insted?

Xterminator · 23-09-2019 10:13am

they cannot allocate train carriages they don't have. Due to the track gauge in ireland they cant just buy a handful of carriages form our neighbours. so its mainly window dressing, but thats all that they can do

Unless they bring in pricing polices that promotes off peak travel. they would have to alter/ do away with weekly capping, andf or free pass travel times etc. Cant see that happening.

banie01 · 23-09-2019 10:18am

Don't post often in Transport so please go easy on me

There are quite a few places in my locale (Not Dublin) that offer their employees flexi-time start and end times but where the vast majority of people stick to a working range of 8-6 with the main cohort being 9.30 to 5.

A lot of that is due to external factors, outside of employer flexibility.
Kids getting to school would be the primary one IMO.
Couple that with 3rd level commuting demand and the benefits gained by moving workers to adjusted demand is lost when the base load of students is constant.

Demand management and staggered start times does have IMO a part to play in improving the efficiency of the capacity available.

Its a far more sensible approach IMO, to work on spreading the demand across multiple hours, rather than adding capacity to cover the peak demand periods and having oversupply of capacity being underutilized for the entirety of the day.

It allows capacity to be better utilized without immediate and costly capital expenditure, that in any case would take years to bring extra capacity online.

CatInABox · 23-09-2019 10:19am

The first thing I thought of when I saw this news:

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thomasj · 23-09-2019 10:35am

It's nice to know that where there are people struggling to get on Commuter services this morning , at least DART users could put their mind at ease by working out via this handy :rolleyes: website when to travel *

* Actually they couldn't because the website wasnt functioning properly most of this morning!

Geuze · 23-09-2019 10:39am

What about bringing the 2700 class DMUs back into service.

25 vehicles sitting in Inchicore, unused, need to be fixed up.

CatInABox · 23-09-2019 10:53am

Geuze wrote: »

What about bringing the 2700 class DMUs back into service.

25 vehicles sitting in Inchicore, unused, need to be fixed up.

Apparently it'll cost too much, as there's so much work to be done on them to bring them up to a safe standard, plus it'd take too long. They wouldn't be in service long before the Dart expansion carriages start coming on stream.

Unfortunately, it looks like we'll just be stuck with current service levels until that point. I assume that's why they're rolling out this website, because they can't do anything else.

LazerShark · 23-09-2019 11:00am

See also takethebusinstead.ie or carzone.ie, from your friends in Irish Rail.

Breezer · 23-09-2019 12:13pm

thomasj wrote: »

It's nice to know that where there are people struggling to get on Commuter services this morning , at least DART users could put their mind at ease by working out via this handy :rolleyes: website when to travel *

* Actually they couldn't because the website wasnt functioning properly most of this morning!

Peaktime.ie users have been asked to stagger the times they use the website, in order to reduce load on the server and ensure a more comfortable experience.

ELM327 · 23-09-2019 12:23pm

It's useless
I checked a station I used to use 10 years ago when I lived in Dublin and all it does is tell me the morning is busy

https://peaktime.ie/station/clontarf-road

cherryghost · 23-09-2019 12:33pm

ELM327 wrote: »

It's useless
I checked a station I used to use 10 years ago when I lived in Dublin and all it does is tell me the morning is busy

https://peaktime.ie/station/clontarf-road

So go to work after 9am, problem sorted! :pac:

ELM327 · 23-09-2019 2:30pm

cherryghost wrote: »

So go to work after 9am, problem sorted! :pac:

Now that is an irish rail style solution

Works for me as I a) dont live on a dart line, b) can work from home if needed and c) dont have a defined start or finish time.

Not for the majority though.

alentejo · 23-09-2019 4:16pm

They should have never got rid of the MKIII's in the way they did. They cut back way too much during the recession and now IR are paying the price!

bikeman1 · 23-09-2019 4:26pm

That web page that they created has to be the most useless piece of rubbish I have seen online in quite some time!

Morning Peak - Into Dublin CC - Trains between 07:30 and 09:00 will be busier - Oh really, I never would have guessed!!! I'd love to know how many days were wasted putting this nonsense together.

magicbastarder · 23-09-2019 5:00pm

to be fair, i'm chuckling about this. not saying it's the same bunch of people on each side, but you often hear 'we should stagger when schools start' arguments, but when there's a 'you should try staggering when you go into work', there's pretty universal condemnation of the idea.

loyatemu · 23-09-2019 5:10pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

to be fair, i'm chuckling about this. not saying it's the same bunch of people on each side, but you often hear 'we should stagger when schools start' arguments, but when there's a 'you should try staggering when you go into work', there's pretty universal condemnation of the idea.

"kids should cycle to school"
why don't you cycle to work
"GTFO!"

Idbatterim · 23-09-2019 5:22pm

christ! the definition of banana republic in the dictionary should just say "ireland"

thomasj · 23-09-2019 5:57pm

So you can only check DART services in 1 direction towards city, and in the morning .

About as useful as an underwater hairdryer.

lawred2 · 23-09-2019 5:59pm

Half assed solution from a half assed organisation

Nekro Man · 23-09-2019 6:05pm

All this does is piss me off by pointing out how frequent darts are vs a commuter.

God forbid someone living further away than Malahide has to commute.

lawred2 · 23-09-2019 6:07pm

Nekro Man wrote: »

All this does is piss me off by pointing out how frequent darts are vs a commuter.

God forbid someone living further away than Malahide has to commute.

Fairly standard everywhere to expect that frequency decreases with increases in commuting distance

lawred2 · 23-09-2019 6:08pm

What's the actual incentive?

Nekro Man · 23-09-2019 6:10pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Fairly standard everywhere to expect that frequency decreases with increases in commuting distance

Fair point however considering its still County Dublin (albiet North county) it's a point of frustration.

Tomrota · 23-09-2019 6:36pm

Just let the Germans take over. It’s actually disgusting how the government has let it get into such a state. Also on commuter trains it’s quite disgusting to have to stand on a train that’s designed for long distance travel. I have had to do it too many times from Naas and Celbridge. Not pretty.

There is no transport network. We need at least 3 metro lines, DART underground, and the DART expansion. Even then, we will not have caught up with other European countries but it would be acceptable. By the time all of that was completed, it would be probably over budget and in 100 years time so overcapacity.

lawred2 · 23-09-2019 6:37pm

Nekro Man wrote: »

Fair point however considering its still County Dublin (albiet North county) it's a point of frustration.

There are 'plans' to extend the DART northwards.. wouldn't hold my breath.

serfboard · 23-09-2019 7:02pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

'you should try staggering when you go into work'

I tried staggering when I went into work - but my boss accused me of being drunk

Jamie2k9 · 23-09-2019 8:15pm

Whoever felt the need to create a website for this should be given a P45.

Thousands of people already do this and the fundamental problem will not be solved as those that move will just be replaced by new passengers and you are back to square one.

devnull · 23-09-2019 8:17pm

What I don't understand is that why they didn't do it for the evening as well, as in my experience at least, the evening is far worse for me passengers wise when commuting compared to the morning.

One colleague remarked that they didn't see Grand Canal Dock there, because they'd all have to be red, but in reality it's probably as they think people are commuting to there instead of from there.

L1011 · 23-09-2019 9:20pm

lawred2 wrote: »

What's the actual incentive?

A reduced risk of fainting

The microscopic Luas peak fare difference was got rid of so I can't see a replacement as likely

magicbastarder · 23-09-2019 9:35pm

devnull wrote: »

What I don't understand is that why they didn't do it for the evening as well, as in my experience at least, the evening is far worse for me passengers wise when commuting compared to the morning.

i used to go bus/luas to work - would leave the house around 7am, in the office at 8ish (i work a lot with people on the continent, so this made sense from a workday point of view anyway), and would leave the office around 4/4:30. generally speaking, the commute in the evening was half an hour longer than the commute in the morning. the morning rush hour seems to be more concentrated, or at least on the commute i had.

Infini · 23-09-2019 9:54pm

Simple truth is this is the austerity and year's of cutting funding and treating public transport as a money making machine instead of a critical infrastructure coming back to haunt everyone. Simply put it's not physically possible to get more carriages right now as they take time to build and ship in. Trying to repair broken stock would take to long to bring back up to standard and ultimately it's an unviable plan.

Simply put blame the company all you want but the goverment is the one that controls the purse strings and the past lack of investment is biting everyone now. This is why the rail should be treated as infrastructure not as a money making semi state.

KD345 · 23-09-2019 10:37pm

I think it’s a bit unfair to be bashing this. Someone had an idea and they’re trying to help spread the peak loading. We know more trains are on the way, but it’ll be at least 3 years before they arrive.

How often do we hear motorists say if they leave the house 10 minutes later they’ll be stuck in traffic etc. I see this as no different. In some cases, taking an earlier DART means having a less crowded journey. Some people have no choice with the time they travel, others do and they’re the people who may benefit.

cython · 24-09-2019 9:08am

KD345 wrote: »

I think it’s a bit unfair to be bashing this. Someone had an idea and they’re trying to help spread the peak loading. We know more trains are on the way, but it’ll be at least 3 years before they arrive.

How often do we hear motorists say if they leave the house 10 minutes later they’ll be stuck in traffic etc. I see this as no different. In some cases, taking an earlier DART means having a less crowded journey. Some people have no choice with the time they travel, others do and they’re the people who may benefit.

The issue that I have with it is that it's being pitched as a revolutionary idea, when in reality it's an overblown way of stating the bloody obvious. I'm not on a DART, but I've been getting a train at around 7am from a Dublin 15 station for the last 2 years as the chronic overcrowding on that line is so bad. I didn't need a waste of money website that boils down to saying little more than "peak times are busy" to tell me that earlier services were quieter,

lawred2 · 24-09-2019 9:20am

KD345 wrote: »

I think it’s a bit unfair to be bashing this. Someone had an idea and they’re trying to help spread the peak loading. We know more trains are on the way, but it’ll be at least 3 years before they arrive.

How often do we hear motorists say if they leave the house 10 minutes later they’ll be stuck in traffic etc. I see this as no different. In some cases, taking an earlier DART means having a less crowded journey. Some people have no choice with the time they travel, others do and they’re the people who may benefit.

On an already congested and dysfunctional system - I can't see how these new trains are going to help

lawred2 · 24-09-2019 9:21am

cython wrote: »

The issue that I have with it is that it's being pitched as a revolutionary idea, when in reality it's an overblown way of stating the bloody obvious. I'm not on a DART, but I've been getting a train at around 7am from a Dublin 15 station for the last 2 years as the chronic overcrowding on that line is so bad. I didn't need a waste of money website that boils down to saying little more than "peak times are busy" to tell me that earlier services were quieter,

It's to give the appearance of doing something while doing very little

L1011 · 24-09-2019 9:37am

lawred2 wrote: »

On an already congested and dysfunctional system - I can;'t see how these new trains are going to help

There are plenty of peak time trains that are significantly shorter than they can be - 3 or 4 car on the Docklands line; 4 on Maynooth, 4/6 on DART. There's a lot of potential capacity to add there without any extra slots.

Also the final bit of the resignalling should be done, eventually...

lawred2 · 24-09-2019 9:42am

L1011 wrote: »

There are plenty of peak time trains that are significantly shorter than they can be - 3 or 4 car on the Docklands line; 4 on Maynooth, 4/6 on DART. There's a lot of potential capacity to add there without any extra slots.

Also the final bit of the resignalling should be done, eventually...

Well here's hoping...

Beta Ray Bill · 24-09-2019 9:54am

Xterminator wrote: »

they cannot allocate train carriages they don't have. Due to the track gauge in ireland they cant just buy a handful of carriages form our neighbours. so its mainly window dressing, but thats all that they can do .

The Elephant in the room....

All our Neighbors use 1,435 mm gauge while we use 1,600 mm.
Severely limits our ability to buy/sell stock and ends up costing as hell of a lot more as we constantly need to buy new trains/cars and end up with no where to sell them to when we're done with them.

This will be a problem each time a line hits capacity. So basically forever.
IE in 10 years this will be an issue again and we'll be stuck waiting on new train orders instead of being able to buy/sell with our neighbors.

Over 50% of the worlds runs on 1,435 mm gauge.

We need to ask ourselves whats going to cost more over the next 50 years.
Constantly buying new stock and never being able to sell it OR start the conversion to 1,435 mm gauge.

It would also make a tunnel from the UK to Ireland more feasible

And even at that, where do we keep this new stock when it's not in use (IE overnight and off peak), the Clontarf Depot is full

In relation to the Peaktimes website.
I think a lot of people that can go in early or late already do.
I got the DART at 7.15am to be in for 8am and it was quite full. If I miss the early train I hold off til after 9am.
The DARTs and Buses are packed full in the mornings especially on the North side of the city.

Dublin Infrastructure needs a Major overhaul, we're granting fast track planning permission to every tom, dick and harry that wants to build a block of X hundred apartments, with literally no infra to support those extra people. Again particularly on the north side of the city within Dublin City Council, but not Fingal County Council.

I think the website might help a bit, but it's a by not anywhere close to an interim solution.

CatInABox · 24-09-2019 10:19am

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

The Elephant in the room....

All our Neighbors use 1,435 mm gauge while we use 1,600 mm.
Severely limits our ability to buy/sell stock and ends up costing as hell of a lot more as we constantly need to buy new trains/cars and end up with no where to sell them to when we're done with them.

This will be a problem each time a line hits capacity. So basically forever.
IE in 10 years this will be an issue again and we'll be stuck waiting on new train orders instead of being able to buy/sell with our neighbors.

Over 50% of the worlds runs on 1,435 mm gauge.

We need to ask ourselves whats going to cost more over the next 50 years.
Constantly buying new stock and never being able to sell it OR start the conversion to 1,435 mm gauge.

While this is a problem, it's not the be all and end all that you make it out to be. Changing the bogies under the train is not a terribly complex job, so swapping from one gauge to the other is something that's not impossible. More expensive, sure, but not enough to cause transport planners to think twice about it.

The problem in this case is that there's no point in leasing trains from elsewhere as it'd take as long to modify existing trains as waiting for our new trains. If we weren't ordering in new trains, we'd already have agreed a lease and begun modification. Better planning would have avoided this issue easily.

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

It would also make a tunnel from the UK to Ireland more feasible

A great idea, but one that is not going to happen anytime soon. Perhaps when Dublin/Belfast have 20 million plus people living in it. The engineering difficulties of building an underground, undersea tunnel are massive, so a different gauge would have zero daring on the project. Why not just have narrow track into the station, no mixing?

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

And even at that, where do we keep this new stock when it's not in use (IE overnight and off peak), the Clontarf Depot is full

They're planning on building a new depot out in Maynooth as part of the Dart Expansion. See this presentation.

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

In relation to the Peaktimes website.
I think a lot of people that can go in early or late already do.
I got the DART at 7.15am to be in for 8am and it was quite full. If I miss the early train I hold off til after 9am.
The DARTs and Buses are packed full in the mornings especially on the North side of the city.

Dublin Infrastructure needs a Major overhaul, we're granting fast track planning permission to every tom, dick and harry that wants to build a block of X hundred apartments, with literally no infra to support those extra people. Again particularly on the north side of the city within Dublin City Council, but not Fingal County Council.

I think the website might help a bit, but it's a by not anywhere close to an interim solution.

The Dart Expansion is one part of the planned overhaul. Metrolink is another. Both needed to get the most out of each other. BusConnects is another part. The plan is there for the overhaul, and it's a pretty good plan in my opinion. If you want it though, you'll need to email your representatives and tell them in no uncertain terms that it's a vote winner.

Beta Ray Bill · 24-09-2019 11:09am

CatInABox wrote: »

While this is a problem, it's not the be all and end all that you make it out to be. Changing the bogies under the train is not a terribly complex job, so swapping from one gauge to the other is something that's not impossible. More expensive, sure, but not enough to cause transport planners to think twice about it.

The problem in this case is that there's no point in leasing trains from elsewhere as it'd take as long to modify existing trains as waiting for our new trains. If we weren't ordering in new trains, we'd already have agreed a lease and begun modification. Better planning would have avoided this issue easily.

I agree with what you're saying to an extent, but even when buying new trains we're increasing the cost because we're buying something that's "different" to what everyone else is buying. Off the shelf products are always cheaper. I'm sure there are one or 2 other things that would have to change to accommodate a different bogies.

It makes no sense that we are so different from everyone else, we're not a trend setter nation when it comes to infra.

CatInABox wrote: »

A great idea, but one that is not going to happen anytime soon. Perhaps when Dublin/Belfast have 20 million plus people living in it. The engineering difficulties of building an underground, undersea tunnel are massive, so a different gauge would have zero daring on the project. Why not just have narrow track into the station, no mixing?

True, Shinkansen and TGV have thought us that building new lines is significantly cheaper than modifying old lines.

CatInABox wrote: »

They're planning on building a new depot out in Maynooth as part of the Dart Expansion. See this presentation.

The Dart Expansion is one part of the planned overhaul. Metrolink is another. Both needed to get the most out of each other. BusConnects is another part. The plan is there for the overhaul, and it's a pretty good plan in my opinion. If you want it though, you'll need to email your representatives and tell them in no uncertain terms that it's a vote winner.

Unfortunately I'm quite the pessimist. Ireland is great at making plans but terrible at implementing them.
You only have to look back at the last 20 years of major infra/services projects to see that we're not very good at it. (for a number of reasons)
I'm only back from a trip around Germany, Austria, Italy, Slovenia and Croatia.
The countries seem to be class at infra, hundreds tunnels through solid rock, railway in nearly every big town, etc

I think we'd be better off paying countries with a high degree of experience on big infra projects to bring over their equipment and staff to do the work for us, and we could learn from them in the process.

Muahahaha · 24-09-2019 1:04pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

The Elephant in the room....

All our Neighbors use 1,435 mm gauge while we use 1,600 mm.
Severely limits our ability to buy/sell stock and ends up costing as hell of a lot more as we constantly need to buy new trains/cars and end up with no where to sell them to when we're done with them.

The article was saying we only share a guage with Brazil and western Australia but Id never realised the difference is gauge is only 15mm. Im not an engineer or anything but it cant be an impossible job to cover that 15mm? Its hardly that difficult, I was on a train from Poland into the Ukraine a few years back and at the border and the engineers raised the train off the tracks and changed the gauge in about 2 hours. The same when going from Russia to China on the Trans Siberian, that took about 3 hours waiting around on the platform and then we were off again.

L1011 · 24-09-2019 1:15pm

It's 165mm not 15mm

Also our loading gauge is much smaller than the continent albeit bigger than much of the UK. This is the allowable size of train under bridges, around corners etc

Beta Ray Bill · 24-09-2019 1:47pm

L1011 wrote: »

It's 165mm not 15mm

Also our loading gauge is much smaller than the continent albeit bigger than much of the UK. This is the allowable size of train under bridges, around corners etc

This is what I meant, it's not just the size of the bogies but other constraints such as weight, turning circles, banking in corners and as L1011 mentioned the area/volume a train fills on a turn or under a bridge.

My understanding is that a lot of trains on the continent use a Jacobs bogie. (Could be wrong....)

Swapping the Bogies over is one thing, whether the train can run on our lines with the swapped over Bogie is another.

tom1ie · 24-09-2019 1:58pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

The Elephant in the room....

All our Neighbors use 1,435 mm gauge while we use 1,600 mm.
Severely limits our ability to buy/sell stock and ends up costing as hell of a lot more as we constantly need to buy new trains/cars and end up with no where to sell them to when we're done with them.

This will be a problem each time a line hits capacity. So basically forever.
IE in 10 years this will be an issue again and we'll be stuck waiting on new train orders instead of being able to buy/sell with our neighbors.

Over 50% of the worlds runs on 1,435 mm gauge.

We need to ask ourselves whats going to cost more over the next 50 years.
Constantly buying new stock and never being able to sell it OR start the conversion to 1,435 mm gauge.

It would also make a tunnel from the UK to Ireland more feasible

And even at that, where do we keep this new stock when it's not in use (IE overnight and off peak), the Clontarf Depot is full

In relation to the Peaktimes website.
I think a lot of people that can go in early or late already do.
I got the DART at 7.15am to be in for 8am and it was quite full. If I miss the early train I hold off til after 9am.
The DARTs and Buses are packed full in the mornings especially on the North side of the city.

Dublin Infrastructure needs a Major overhaul, we're granting fast track planning permission to every tom, dick and harry that wants to build a block of X hundred apartments, with literally no infra to support those extra people. Again particularly on the north side of the city within Dublin City Council, but not Fingal County Council.

I think the website might help a bit, but it's a by not anywhere close to an interim solution.

Surely somewhere else in the world uses this gauge?
Can we not just buy second Hand stock off them?
Sorry just seen the above posts, is there anywhere in the world that uses 1600mm gauge with the same or very close to loading gauge as us?
We could t be a completely unique case could we?

B_ecke_r · 24-09-2019 1:59pm

I understand the idea, but do people not already do this?

If I am starting work @ 10 why would I be on a DART @ 8:00 ?

Muahahaha · 24-09-2019 3:08pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

This is what I meant, it's not just the size of the bogies but other constraints such as weight, turning circles, banking in corners and as L1011 mentioned the area/volume a train fills on a turn or under a bridge.

My understanding is that a lot of trains on the continent use a Jacobs bogie. (Could be wrong....)

Swapping the Bogies over is one thing, whether the train can run on our lines with the swapped over Bogie is another.

I wonder has Irish Rail done analysis on whether it could be done just for one set of carriages that are then placed for use on one line which would then free up carriages to be used on other lines? Like 165mm doesnt sound like much bridge wise, do we not have a commuter line anywhere that doesnt have banking corners and has enough clearance from bridges?

Otherwise how did we get here anyway when the British built the railways

Why the differing gauge from the UK?

Beta Ray Bill · 24-09-2019 3:17pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

I wonder has Irish Rail done analysis on whether it could be done just for one set of carriages that are then placed for use on one line which would then free up carriages to be used on other lines? Like 165mm doesnt sound like much bridge wise, do we not have a commuter line anywhere that doesnt have banking corners and has enough clearance from bridges?

I don't know the answer to these questions.
I'd imagine when a company constructs and EMU or Locomotive they do it to a Specification.
Likewise, we have a Spec for our railway that we give to manufacturer when we want new Trains.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Otherwise how did we get here anyway when the British built the railways Why the differing gauge from the UK?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Regulation_(Gauge)_Act_1846

24-09-2019 3:22pm

lawred2 wrote: »

What's the actual incentive?

Exactly. Make it cheaper to travel outside the rush hour and people will be more likely to take you up on the offer.

Beta Ray Bill · 24-09-2019 3:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly. Make it cheaper to travel outside the rush hour and people will be more likely to take you up on the offer.

They did this on the Luas a while back, and it had little or no affect

24-09-2019 3:42pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

They did this on the Luas a while back, and it had little or no affect

They removed the city centre fare and amalgamated the two peak/off-peak fares around the same time last year, I think. At the time, I thought it had to do with streamlining the fares to avoid confusion and/or making more money......I don't remember anything about it being because there was no difference.

L1011 · 24-09-2019 4:29pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Surely somewhere else in the world uses this gauge?
Can we not just buy second Hand stock off them?
Sorry just seen the above posts, is there anywhere in the world that uses 1600mm gauge with the same or very close to loading gauge as us?
We could t be a completely unique case could we?

Brazil, which has no passenger railways at all. (It has light rail). Parts of Australia which would have nothing to sell and a much bigger loading gauge.

peaktime.ie - IE Service to incentivise staggered commutes

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