Brownface racist?

StupidLikeAFox · 22-09-2019 12:47PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

So you're removing context altogether?

If a black man wishes to go to a party as the Pogues lead singer for Halloween, then bad teeth, slurred speech and white face paint would help in carrying it off successfully. To attend a party as Mr.T would require a similar change of skin tone and an adherence to behaviours and catchphrases associated with that characters persona.

Were someone to dress as a generic black man and act out an ill-judged series of traits and characteristics which they believe captures the essence of an entire race, that would be cause for taking exception.

You will never be able to produce a definitive list of what is "acceptable" blackface and what is "unacceptable" blackface - you are still going to piss off a lot of people either way.

I mean you could start flying a swastika flag outside your house. You could explain to anybody who would listen that the swastika was originally an old Indian sign of luck, that you are a big fan of the Windsor Swastikas, that you are honouring the good people of the Swastika laundry or any other reason you like. You might convince some people but the fact remains that you have a symbol associated with Naziism hanging outside your door.

Fair enough, you will make the point that "Blacking up" is not as provocative and hanging a swastika flag but for some people they see "blacking up" as a racist due to the historical connotations. Now you are more than welcome to do it, and lots of people won't care, but don't be surprised when other people call you out on it because it was historically a racist symbol and no amount of saying "I was only having a laugh" or "I was paying homage to black people" is going to change that.

whisky_galore · 22-09-2019 12:53PM

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

what about all them leprechauns on paddys day

That would be racist if leprechauns were a race.
Or real.

PostWoke · 22-09-2019 01:46PM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I'd see nothing racist if a black lad/ladette dressed up as a white, I'd actually find it funny.

Is there a sizeable history of black people whitening their face to disparage the white race?

There's your answer then isn't it.

I don't know why anyone is responding to this thread, it's obviously a troll thread made in bad faith. Be smarter lads.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-09-2019 02:42PM

One More Toy wrote: »

Just go as elvis

The guy who stole all the black music ?

That's going to end well.

Quantum Erasure · 22-09-2019 03:10PM

PostWoke wrote: »

Is there a sizeable history of black people whitening their face to disparage the white race?

is there a sizeable history of racist blackface this side of the atlantic? as opposed to Morris dancers rubbing burnt cork on their faces, or Zwarte Piet in the Netherlands...

22-09-2019 04:13PM

mikemac2 wrote: »

If you admire a married preacher, a man of god who had more women than Tiger Woods then sure go

Well, yes actually. What's wrong with that?

Thelonious Monk · 22-09-2019 04:13PM

Rodin wrote: »

Persecution of the white male is de rigeur these days

Yes we really have it terribly hard compared to others us white males in rich countries

22-09-2019 04:49PM

Probably not the best group of people to ask. I assume most of us are white and Irish and burn under a 40w lamp.

Of course we are all entitled to our opinions, and our arseholes too. But the people best placed to answer the OP's question are black.

Irish jokes probably don't bother most of us, so maybe it's the same for black people. Not that that's the same thing -- there's an historian on Twitter called Liam Hogan who has comprehensively undone that whole notion of Irish "slavery".

Wibbs · 22-09-2019 06:29PM

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

I mean you could start flying a swastika flag outside your house. You could explain to anybody who would listen that the swastika was originally an old Indian sign of luck, that you are a big fan of the Windsor Swastikas, that you are honouring the good people of the Swastika laundry or any other reason you like. You might convince some people but the fact remains that you have a symbol associated with Naziism hanging outside your door.

Ah sh1te, now I have to take it down.

mr_fegelien · 22-09-2019 06:45PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Probably not the best group of people to ask. I assume most of us are white and Irish and burn under a 40w lamp.

Of course we are all entitled to our opinions, and our arseholes too. But the people best placed to answer the OP's question are black.

Irish jokes probably don't bother most of us, so maybe it's the same for black people. Not that that's the same thing -- there's an historian on Twitter called Liam Hogan who has comprehensively undone that whole notion of Irish "slavery".

Not really. I'm black and tell black jokes and guess who guess most offended. My black friends.

I think it's really hard to make any good jokes about Irish people as we're well off financially and being white, can blend in to other European nationalities and our the Irish appearance isn't made fun of either.

mr_fegelien · 22-09-2019 06:47PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yes we really have it terribly hard compared to others us white males in rich countries

well the Irish male is considered the ugliest on dating sites if I recall

Danzy · 22-09-2019 07:27PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Of course we are all entitled to our opinions, and our arseholes too. But the people best placed to answer the OP's question are black.

The progressive left and liberal side will never ask black people that, they already have the answers and won't brook dissent.

For example, look who is most in favour of more open migration policy in America, rich white people. The demographic with near solid opposition is African American.

The first crack down on more opem migration in America, the angriest voices come from rich white Americans, record wage growth and employment for black Americans though.

So in short they won't ask because they have all the answers already and deep down They know those they are giving solidarity to, largely disagree.

This is a class thing, they are just as dismissive towards the working class as any other group.

PostWoke · 22-09-2019 09:22PM

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

is there a sizeable history of racist blackface this side of the atlantic? as opposed to Morris dancers rubbing burnt cork on their faces, or Zwarte Piet in the Netherlands...

Almost none at all, outside of the occasional edgelord jerkoff teenagers. I don't actually consider Zwarte Piet blackface as it's not depicting a person of African origins at all, it's an original character.

That doesn't mean we have racist arseholes now adopting 'blackface' as a means of dogwhistling their racism, originally a concept from the U.S., to here. I object to yankees whining about Zwarte Piet, it's none of their business and is not the same thing as their history, but if you're doing it to depict a person of African descent, for Halloween or whatever, you deserve any ire.

lawred2 · 22-09-2019 09:24PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm white. I'm invited to a fancy dress. I decide to go as Martin Luther King (who I admire), Mohammed Ali (who my folks admired) or Aladdin (the magic of Arabian Nights during childhood)

I brown my face.

I'm a racist?

So you think Martin Luther King, Mohammed Ali and Aladdin all look the same? Why? Because they are brown. You're a bad one. Proper racist.

Quantum Erasure · 22-09-2019 09:31PM

PostWoke wrote: »

That doesn't mean we have racist arseholes now adopting 'blackface' as a means of dogwhistling their racism, ...

what about fancy dress for halloween? a few lads go as the Ghostbusters, one lad puts on face-paint because he's going as Winston (the black one)... is that racist?

or would any number of other Black personalities / characters be... (and why would you automatically assume it was racist?)

leggo · 22-09-2019 10:18PM

It’s appropriating a culture that has suffered for centuries at the behest of white people...and said culture has come out quite clearly and said “Yes, we find this offensive.” So yes, it is. Same way we get to say if we find humour aimed at Irish people offensive: if people from elsewhere made jokes about the IRA killing people etc and we may know people who died in the troubles, they don’t get to tell us that we can’t be upset.

However we do have a right to an opinion when it comes to scale of punishment. And, for me, it’s harsh to go back into someone’s past several decades ago and judge them by today’s standards. Even if it was some creepy, scummy Republican dickhead politician that I wanted to see cancelled. None of us would stand up to that kind of scrutiny, we’ve all done dumb things, so it kinda falls into “He who has not sinned...” territory.

beejee · 22-09-2019 10:54PM

leggo wrote: »

It’s appropriating a culture that has suffered for centuries at the behest of white people...and said culture has come out quite clearly and said “Yes, we find this offensive.” So yes, it is. Same way we get to say if we find humour aimed at Irish people offensive: if people from elsewhere made jokes about the IRA killing people etc and we may know people who died in the troubles, they don’t get to tell us that we can’t be upset.

However we do have a right to an opinion when it comes to scale of punishment. And, for me, it’s harsh to go back into someone’s past several decades ago and judge them by today’s standards. Even if it was some creepy, scummy Republican dickhead politician that I wanted to see cancelled. None of us would stand up to that kind of scrutiny, we’ve all done dumb things, so it kinda falls into “He who has not sinned...” territory.

Just as well "we" have someone like you on "our" side to tell us how to behave amongst ourselves so as its appropriate for a bunch of eejits thousands of miles away on a different continent.

Some flake somewhere in America might have got wind of something and, I dunno, made a tweet about it or something. Phew, close one!

Also, words like "cancelled" and the all encompassing "white people" are words you should probably stop using. Unless you like being immediately singled out as a total arse, of course :P

antiskeptic · 23-09-2019 12:35AM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This argument has been done to death. Over the years I have seen well known racist members post this argument. Everyone knows that they don't admire any Black man or woman.

If you truly admire this Black person why would you want to risk degrading or insulting their community? If you admire Martin Luther King or Ali you will already know that they would take your blackface or brownface as an insult.

It's a nonsense argument hiding behind the pretence of admiration when you know that the person you "claim" to admire would be offended by the brownface. You just wouldn't do this if you admired them in the first place.

I don't think Martin Luther King would be insulted at Aladdin turning up at a fancy dress ball he was at. He might well be insulted if someone turned up blackfaced in slaves manacles.

I see a difference.

quokula · 23-09-2019 12:41AM

If you're doing it in order to get a reaction then yes, it's racist

If you're genuinely doing it because you're dressing up as someone you admire, and the thought never occurred to you that this could be construed as racist because you grew up somewhere where this isn't an issue and you've been living under a rock and have no awareness of the history of black face or the reason why people take offence, then no it isn't.

But if that was the case you wouldn't be in a position to be asking the question.

23-09-2019 12:42AM

Wasn't Aladdin from the Middle East? He only had a bit of a tan and, admittedly, a questionable philosophy towards crime and punishment.

Can't imagine how an Aladdin blackface would make sense

leggo · 23-09-2019 05:37AM

beejee wrote: »

Just as well "we" have someone like you on "our" side to tell us how to behave amongst ourselves so as its appropriate for a bunch of eejits thousands of miles away on a different continent.

Some flake somewhere in America might have got wind of something and, I dunno, made a tweet about it or something. Phew, close one!

Also, words like "cancelled" and the all encompassing "white people" are words you should probably stop using. Unless you like being immediately singled out as a total arse, of course :P

Nobody told you how to behave you confrontational weirdo. It's a discussion about whether something racist is racist, I don't think you're the renegade you think you are by essentially saying "You can't even be racist anymore! PC gone mad! Snowflake...rawr!!!"

PC has always been 'going mad', young people have never 'known their born'. I remember people using those phrase a couple of decades ago, they probably said it in the 50's and 60's too. These days the word elderly people use to discredit society modernising is 'snowflake'. All that's changing is that you're ageing and the world is telling you they're uncomfortable with how you've been behaving and you're trying to rally against it. You're a 2019 version of an elderly person soiling themselves while grumbling to themselves about 'the coloureds' on the bus. Go you, you absolute rebel madzer! You stand over there with your blackface and show us all while everyone else just leaves the room and waits for your views to die with you. :pac:

AudreyHepburn · 23-09-2019 08:36AM

Context is important here - I wouldn’t be going out dressed up as a golliwog for instance but if you’re making a point of dressing up like a famous black person like MLK or Muhammad Ali or Whitney Huston then I’d have no problem with that.

And I certainly don’t see Justin Trudeau as racist nor do I think he should have had to apologize.

People are far too easily offended nowadays.

PostWoke · 23-09-2019 10:07AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Context is important here - I wouldn’t be going out dressed up as a golliwog for instance but if you’re making a point of dressing up like a famous black person like MLK or Muhammad Ali or Whitney Huston then I’d have no problem with that.

It's not up to you to have a problem with it or not though, because you're not of the race being depicted.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

People are far too easily offended nowadays.

People still try the 'good ol' days' fallacy?

23-09-2019 10:26AM

antiskeptic wrote:

I don't think Martin Luther King would be insulted at Aladdin turning up at a fancy dress ball he was at. He might well be insulted if someone turned up blackfaced in slaves manacles.

My point is the ridiculous excuse of "but I admire them", that OP put forward, doesn't wash in any shape or form. If you want to blackface then blackface but Jasus don't claim that you are doing it because you like them so much. Trust me when I tell you this, you do Martin Luther King nor Mohamed Ali any honour by putting on Blackface. There are very few black people on this planet would feel honoured that you blackface in their name.

I don't understand the pretendy "I admire them" bit. If you want to blackface and couldn't care less who you offend or don't offend then go out and do it with pride. Don't hide behind ridiculous excuses and don't ever say afterwards "I didn't mean to offend".

beejee · 23-09-2019 10:40AM

leggo wrote: »

Nobody told you how to behave you confrontational weirdo. It's a discussion about whether something racist is racist, I don't think you're the renegade you think you are by essentially saying "You can't even be racist anymore! PC gone mad! Snowflake...rawr!!!"

PC has always been 'going mad', young people have never 'known their born'. I remember people using those phrase a couple of decades ago, they probably said it in the 50's and 60's too. These days the word elderly people use to discredit society modernising is 'snowflake'. All that's changing is that you're ageing and the world is telling you they're uncomfortable with how you've been behaving and you're trying to rally against it. You're a 2019 version of an elderly person soiling themselves while grumbling to themselves about 'the coloureds' on the bus. Go you, you absolute rebel madzer! You stand over there with your blackface and show us all while everyone else just leaves the room and waits for your views to die with you. :pac:

You've packed a lot of emotion in to such a small space.
So many incorrect assumptions too, impressive. But at least you're being an efficient waste of space.

Go write a tweet about it for Americans fools, you'll find little support for your psychosis here in real life, even on the Internet. Oh and flog yourself a few times for having the audacity to exist.

Tony EH · 23-09-2019 10:42AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm white. I'm invited to a fancy dress. I decide to go as Martin Luther King (who I admire), Mohammed Ali (who my folks admired) or Aladdin (recalling the magic of Arabian Nights during childhood)

I brown my face.

I'm a racist?

No.

/thread.

Raconteuse · 23-09-2019 10:54AM

Go as Blacula, Blackenstein or The Blunchback of Blotre Blame.

SporadicMan · 23-09-2019 11:25AM

Wasn't 'blackface' offensive because of the nuances of its meaning and its appearances in racist settings in history?

That's what the original offensive was over, and the original justification given to complain about it.

If 'brownface' (entirely unrelated to 'black people') is now also offensive, then the nuance has been completely forgotten and it's just people policing what the 'white people' can/can't do.

As with all things, like cultural appropriation too, the original complainers were nuanced about it and justified in what they were pointing out. Now it's the idiots who never understood why it was offensive in the first place keeping it going, assuming that any white person engaging in makeup/costume is offensive for doing so.

beejee · 23-09-2019 11:30AM

Raconteuse wrote: »

Go as Blacula, Blackenstein or The Blunchback of Blotre Blame.

As much as I like the blunchback, I'm afraid that would be considered "cultural appropriation", on the double. Every single white person on earth could be offended by a non-white version of a white cultural "icon".

It could offend every single non-white person on earth by wearing some facial paint too.

Won't someone think of these people's feelings, for crying out loud!

What a confusing, hypocritical bubble these certain people inhabit.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 23-09-2019 11:33AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Or a white Martin Luther King.

But the **** people that are creating all the fuss over this nonsense would say that is also racist as you are denying a black person the right to their identity by portraying them as white.

Brownface racist?

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