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Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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  • #9452
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    A crash out is a disaster for the Brexiteers. It is 100% the opposite of what they were hoping for. They planned that the UK would vote to leave, the EU would be go scared of the prospect that they would give the UK whatever they wanted, and as such they could prove that indeed life is far better outside the EU than being within it.

    But outside was based entirely on what they already had, in trade terms, with the EU but without all the banana laws! The only thing in terms of trade that was going to change is that any part of a current trade deal that the UK didn't like they would simply change and of course armed with this extra special position they could bestride the world making their own trade deals.

    Imagine being able to go to the US and be the perfect bridge to the EU. Access to the UK market but also totally free access to the EU market but without having to worry about the rules.

    A crash out, whilst of course it will be sold as being the best outcome, will actually show what Brexit really means. And that has the very real prospect of actually showing the UK population the real benefits of the EU, far more than any MP or PR campaign could do.

    It is why they have had to throw out this line about the EU bullying the UK, because otherwise they have to admit that this is exactly what was always going to be the outcome. But they have backed themselves into such a corner that they have little option but to place all bets on the very unlikely outcome that Crash Out will actually be OK.

    But that would go against every EU country which you can be sure are constantly looking at the cost v benefit of the EU. UK want us all to believe that they are the only country to have worked out the reality!


  • #9453
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,005 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    So today is the end of the 30-day deadline the UK imposed on itself to get a solution for the backstop. It seems documents has been handed over to the EU negotiation team. There is one huge chasm of a problem though,

    Fresh Brexit talks row as UK asks EU to keep its proposals secret
    Downing Street’s secrecy over its “underwhelming” Brexit proposals has caused a fresh rupture in the negotiations in Brussels.

    The row centres on a demand that the EU’s negotiating team treat a long-awaited cache of documents outlining the UK’s latest ideas as “Her Majesty’s government property”.

    Whitehall told the European commission team that the three “confidential” papers it had sent on Thursday evening should not be distributed to Brexit delegates representing the EU’s 27 other member states.

    Sources in Brussels said that in response the point was being made forcefully to the British negotiating team that all proposals would need to be made available for the EU’s capitals to analyse for talks to progress.

    So here is stupidity of the situation today, the UK has handed over proposals that needs to be discussed that could mean a deal can be reached. But the people that has to okay those proposals are not allowed to see them. How do those bright sparks think Ireland can okay the backstop proposals if we aren't allowed to see them? They really are that thick to think this strategy is a winning one for the UK and will win them friends.

    It all still only points one way, the UK wants to leave without a deal as all the work being done now is nothing but show as they have not approached the talks with any serious intent. The only saving grace for everyone is that Johnson is a liar so when he says he wants the UK to leave on the 31st October, deal or no-deal, he will hopefully be lying about it. It would be the luck of those who will be harmed the most that the promise he keeps is the one that causes the most harm.


  • #9454
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    And it also goes completely against the UK stated hatred of the EU anti-democratic nature that takes all power away from individual countries. What they are advocating is that the EU actually does act as a centralised coup without any input from the individual countries on the basis that to let the countries know what was happening, in their name, would be damaging.

    And you will have JRM, Francois on the TV telling us that the UK are all about democracy and people need a voice!


  • #9455
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Enzokk wrote: »
    It all still only points one way, the UK wants to leave without a deal as all the work being done now is nothing but show as they have not approached the talks with any serious intent.

    The purpose of the talks (or at least, all the talk about the talks) and of prorogation was to give the impression in the UK that stuff was happening and keep everyone off Johnson's back while he runs down the clock. There will be no new deal, there simply isn't time, never was.

    Johnson planned to dust off May's deal at the last minute and tell MPs that the EU talks were a bust, it is May's deal or No Deal.

    But Parliament already spiked that plan with the Benn Act. Johnson is carrying on with the plan because he's got nothing else, but it's going to be an extension no matter what he is saying, then an election and a referendum.


  • #9456
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    ltd440 wrote: »
    That was a great response. The interviewer seemed to be of the view that its lucky the UK finally told everyone what the reality was as poor Ireland didn't seem to understand.

    Coveney response was perfect. Welcome to the table!
    Yes, great response, after 3 years it must be difficult to not answer certain questions with 'FFS are you seriously asking that'[/QUOTE]

    Also enjoyed Gavan Reilly on The View last night - blunt, but honest with the panel, and even then Ben Lowry was still insisting Dublin would cave!


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  • #9457
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,215 ✭✭✭prunudo


    lawred2 wrote: »
    that interviewer was quite rude and shouty - interrupting quite a lot - with a very arrogant tone. You could even hear him huffing at some points while Simon was laying reality out bare before him.

    Funny how I very rarely hear similar directed towards spoofing Brexiteers.

    Simon did well to not simply hang up.

    I don't think the interviewer was even taking account of what Coveney was saying, seemed to be of the view that whatever Barclay and the Johnson government said was fact and that a politician from Ireland wouldn't have a clue about what he was talking about.


  • #9458
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,753 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    prunudo wrote: »
    I don't think the interviewer was even taking account of what Coveney was saying, seemed to be of the view that whatever Barclay and the Johnson government said was fact and that a politician from Ireland wouldn't have a clue about what he was talking about.

    Who was the interviewer? Struck me as an elderly has-been commentator that the BBC has by the handful. He was just sort of sneakily echoing what Barclay et al have been saying and being unhappy when Coveney demolished his talking points.


  • #9459
    Dytalus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    prunudo wrote: »
    I don't think the interviewer was even taking account of what Coveney was saying, seemed to be of the view that whatever Barclay and the Johnson government said was fact and that a politician from Ireland wouldn't have a clue about what he was talking about.

    I've seen a couple of interviews (in particular the one with Jonathan Powell on Newsnight) where the interviewer has been followed the exact same pattern of questions.

    "Is Ireland now realising how disastrous no deal would be" -> "Why won't the EU offer/accept alternatives?" -> Interviewee explains the reasoning of the backstop -> "So what you're saying is there really is no alternative to the backstop and it's completely necessary?"

    It's practically a script at this point. The Coveney and Powell interviewers both even used almost identical phrasing once they'd "realised" how important the backstop was to Ireland.

    We're caught in groundhog day at this point.


  • #9460
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,319 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I'm not really sure what to say to this - he's obviously hoping for a Darwin award...
    https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1174656247766900736


  • #9461
    Dytalus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    I'm not really sure what to say to this - he's obviously hoping for a Darwin award...
    https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1174656247766900736

    I know it's a dumb thing to nitpick....but if the UK manages to leave Europe I'll be singularly impressed.

    How can someone be diabetic and so casually dismiss the prospect of dying because of it. He must really hate the EU.


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  • #9462
    Tropheus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭Tropheus


    Dytalus wrote: »
    He must really hate the EU.

    Remember the throngs of people protesting on the streets in the years before the referendum? Neither do I.

    This sorry mess just shows how easy it is to mobilise the gullible.


  • #9463
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Something tells me a person that stubborn would be a nightmare to deal with if there WERE any insulin shortages. That kind of guy who kicks up a fuss and demands preferential treatment despite appeals for patience. I'm sure his family would prefer he didn't die, I daresay there'd be a wife or husband distraught at his confident voxpop.

    This is what has been said for ages, Brexit no longer exists as a political decision; it's dogma, and direct democracy taken to an economically suicidal extreme. This fellow is an ideological martyr, Brexit is the paradise promised if he sacrifices his life and dignity.


  • #9464
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,305 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Steve Barclay sent packing today by Barnier to come up with a realistic proposal quick fast.

    Big pushback by the EU side today (including Coveney this morning) on the optimism from the British govt.


  • #9465
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,737 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Tropheus wrote: »
    Remember the throngs of people protesting on the streets in the years before the referendum? Neither do I.

    This sorry mess just shows how easy it is to mobilise the gullible.

    There was no working class movement behind Brexit either. Most of the leading Eurosceptics were right wing, middle class and university educated.


  • #9466
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Tropheus wrote: »
    Remember the throngs of people protesting on the streets in the years before the referendum? Neither do I.

    This sorry mess just shows how easy it is to mobilise the gullible.

    Absolutely. It is actually quite amazing how such a peripheral idea to most of the public, hence why most of them have no real idea what the EU actually does, has not become the great divide within the country.

    Whilst people may well have been unhappy with the EU, they certainly weren't as exercised as they currently are, as evidenced by that Voxpop where the guy is willing to die to get Brexit.

    It should act as a warning to all democracies, including our own, how quickly ideas can become mainstream and change the very nature of political discourse and indeed the direction of a nation.


  • #9467
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,305 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    BREXIT: UK PM TOLD COLLEAGUES HE DOES NOT EXPECT TO BE ABLE TO REACH FULL “LEGALLY OPERABLE” DEAL COVERING IRISH BORDER AT MEETING OF EU LEADERS - FT

    Quelle surprise


  • #9468
    Borderhopper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 67 ✭✭Borderhopper


    Dytalus wrote: »
    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    I'm not really sure what to say to this - he's obviously hoping for a Darwin award...
    https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1174656247766900736

    I know it's a dumb thing to nitpick....but if the UK manages to leave Europe I'll be singularly impressed.

    How can someone be diabetic and so casually dismiss the prospect of dying because of it. He must really hate the EU.

    There’s a saying in the north- “he/she kills dead dogs”. Sounds but weird, but it’s used to describe someone full of false, and vocal, bravado. You’ll know the type. “If it was me, I would’ve…” “lucky I wasn’t there, because…”. The individual is usually describing their hypothetical reaction to a situation they hadn’t, and secretly would rather not, be in. This dude is killing whole packs


  • #9469
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Yesterday, Stephen Barclay, admitted that the UK would have no arrangements ready by 31st October but that the EU should give them the transition period anyway even though there was no arrangement for a transition in A50.

    For effectively he has just asked for a one year extension, at the very least.

    The reality of this was hardly even mentioned in the media. Of course he finished with demanding that the EU do something about it.


  • #9470
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,737 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Absolutely. It is actually quite amazing how such a peripheral idea to most of the public, hence why most of them have no real idea what the EU actually does, has not become the great divide within the country.

    Whilst people may well have been unhappy with the EU, they certainly weren't as exercised as they currently are, as evidenced by that Voxpop where the guy is willing to die to get Brexit.

    It should act as a warning to all democracies, including our own, how quickly ideas can become mainstream and change the very nature of political discourse and indeed the direction of a nation.

    It almost seems as if it's the referendum and not EU membership that has everyone wound up. The referendum result itself is the rallying point, not the EU.

    If true, it tells you what a catastrophic blunder Cameron made in holding it.


  • #9471
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    That story about the UK asking the EU to keep their proposals secret has the obvious look of a manufactured row about it, they're practically asking the impossible and they know it, just so it gives them another excuse to be outraged at the actions of the other side. It's so transparent and another reason you find it hard to take anything they are doing in these "negotiations" seriously.

    Second thing that annoyed me today was listening to the commentator Liam Halligan diss Varadkar on the bbc politics show this morning. I've heard Halligan a few times on shows now and what particularly annoys me about him is he almost always prefaces his comments about brexit and the irish border with "i follow irish politics very closely..." or "i'm very close to the irish scene etc etc" and then proceeds to show hardly any understanding of the situation here whatsoever. I cant see a clip of him actually speaking this morning, but he tweeted the following afterwards and it's indicative of what he was spewing out on the bbc:

    https://twitter.com/LiamHalligan/status/1174676555890601984


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  • #9472
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,913 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Dytalus wrote: »
    I know it's a dumb thing to nitpick....but if the UK manages to leave Europe I'll be singularly impressed.

    How can someone be diabetic and so casually dismiss the prospect of dying because of it. He must really hate the EU.

    It only works if you don’t believe that that will happen. They are simply not used to dealing with a rule based society and they fully expect that rules can and will be broken to give them the deal they want if they just hold out.

    In Ireland everyone understands for instance that no matter how we feel about an issue, what ever is set out in the constitution is what will be applied and if we are not satisfied then there is another set of rules to follow if we want it changed. And it is the same with the other 26 members. That is not the case in the UK with their flexible construction.

    They really don’t expect that if BREXIT happens, that the rules will be applied until it happens. It is beyond their comprehension that the 27 will refer to the rule book and start applying it. But that is what will happen because that is the culture of the 27.


  • #9473
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    I'm not really sure what to say to this - he's obviously hoping for a Darwin award...
    https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1174656247766900736

    Just goes to show the forces unleashed by brexit are almost impossible to fully comprehend. You can read a million articles, watch a thousand documentaries, listen to hundreds of political speeches and still the compulsions driving these people remain elusive and unknowable. Remember seeing another bbc report from a manufacturing plant also in the midlands and while the md and part-owner was a remainer, the machine operators - most of whom, the reporter told us, never ever voted but made the exception in 2016 - were nearly all leavers despite the md telling them they'd have to shut machines down in the event of a no deal exit and some of them would lose their jobs. Then there are the Ulster farmers facing wipeout near the border saying, so what, we want a no deal anyway. I think i can kind of understand the rust belt enthusiasm for trump in the US, but the hard brexit vote in these industrial areas of the UK continues to completely elude me. Just not rational in any sense i can think of.


  • #9474
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,286 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Supposed Memo sent to EU27 following latest half arsed crap from UK

    https://twitter.com/QuentinAries/status/1175065612906827778


  • #9475
    Shelga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,054 ✭✭✭Shelga


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    Remember seeing another bbc report from a manufacturing plant also in the midlands and while the md and part-owner was a remainer, the machine operators - most of whom, the reporter told us, never ever voted but made the exception in 2016 - were nearly all leavers despite the md telling them they'd have to shut machines down in the event of a no deal exit and some of them would lose their jobs. Then there are the Ulster farmers facing wipeout near the border saying, so what, we want a no deal anyway.

    Ian Dunt has been strongly against Cameron's assertion on his saturation press tour this week that he had to have the referendum as "there was a growing desire to get this dealt with". This is not true- only 13% cited the EU as the most important issue facing the UK in the year before the referendum.

    He still can't just come out and say- I did this to get UKIP off my back and it was a colossal error. Now you have people like that diabetic man saying he doesn't care if he can't get insulin, as long as they're not in the EU. Cameron unleashed all of this, no one else.

    And yes it is scary how easy it has been to convince these people that leaving the EU is the number one priority in their lives, when they couldn't have cared less 5 years ago, beyond the occasional conversation down the pub. They have absolutely no comprehension of how brainwashed they sound. There is no other word for it.

    Watching the coverage of the climate strikes today, imagine how much better the world would be if half the energy that has gone into covering Brexit in the last 4 years had been directed at tackling carbon emissions.


  • #9476
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,902 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub



    ##Mod Note##

    Incredibly , In a little over a month we have already worn out yet another set of Hamsters.

    Time for us to move to version 11 of this thread.

    Enjoy!


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