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Does anyone actually believe that Gerry Adams wasn't in the IRA?

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    #152
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    If the Brits could have charged Adams with membership of IRA then they would have. It’s amazing that the “dogs on the street” know that Adams was in the IRA yet there’s still no proof that stands up to any scrutiny.

    Realpolitik Bobby, Adams is well above the average junior who would be charged.

    Im sure British intelligence have a file as thick as a doorstep on him, but why arrest him when he's doing what they want.


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    #153
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    It’s plausible that Adams could have attended Army Council meetings to speak about political happenings without being a “member” of said Council. This could even have been a tactic to ensure he wasn’t arrested and to give him plausible deniability (which it didn’t turn out to give).


    If Adams never became a 'member' of the council, and that was deliberately, tactically, the case so he could have plausible deniability, but he was still able to attend IRA council meetings and so on, does that make him less 'in the IRA' in your eyes?


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    #154
    Needs Must
    Registered Users Posts: 1,433 ✭✭✭Needs Must


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    An example.

    A neighbour was found to be drunk driving four times over the legal limit. When his case came to court it was struck out because the guard had noted the wrong townland in which the offense had occurred.
    He has never been convicted of drink driving.


    Am I being undemocratic by concluding that the neighbour is a drink driver?

    So your neighbour is an alcoholic and Gerry is a terrorist, is that your point?


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    #155
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Needs Must wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    An example.

    A neighbour was found to be drunk driving four times over the legal limit. When his case came to court it was struck out because the guard had noted the wrong townland in which the offense had occurred.
    He has never been convicted of drink driving.


    Am I being undemocratic by concluding that the neighbour is a drink driver?

    So your neighbour is an alcoholic and Gerry is a terrorist, is that your point?
    Needs Must wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    An example.

    A neighbour was found to be drunk driving four times over the legal limit. When his case came to court it was struck out because the guard had noted the wrong townland in which the offense had occurred.
    He has never been convicted of drink driving.


    Am I being undemocratic by concluding that the neighbour is a drink driver?

    So your neighbour is an alcoholic and Gerry is a terrorist, is that your point?

    Well one can be a drink driver without being an alcoholic but my point is that one can believe in democracy and still believe that Gerry Adams was in the IRA, a point that a previous poster disagrees with.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #156
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,416 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Needs Must wrote: »
    So your neighbour is an alcoholic and Gerry is a terrorist, is that your point?

    I wonder did his ramblings drive his neighbour to the sup.


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    #157
    begsbyOnaTrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭begsbyOnaTrain


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Well one can be a drink driver without being an alcoholic but my point is that one can believe in democracy and still believe that Gerry Adams was in the IRA, a point that a previous poster disagrees with.

    Aye, and don't forget the lad who said anyone questioning Adams was a "poppy wearing" supporter of British state terrorism. We'll add being "anti-democratic" to that list!

    Gerry's lot are quite the crowd :)


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    #158
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    It would be hard to know whether to believe an organization which pretended one of its members was a paedophile or an organization which pretended none of its members were.

    I am not disagreeing with you but what has that to do with Gerry Adams? He says he was not even in the IRA. I do think the IRA`s political wing, Sinn Féin have demonstrated the height of hypocrisy for finger pointing God`s own Catholic Church and all the while their affiliates in SF/IRA were running kangaroo courts.

    I do share their aspiration for a united Ireland but not their nightmarish socialist version. I want a united Ireland which is right wing.


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    #159
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Questions are bullying now? How undemocratic of me to ask.

    ah stop feeling sorry for yourself. telling people they're embarrassing themselves because the have a different opinion is a weak attempt at bullying. you weren't answering any questions when you said that


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    #160
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    It’s plausible that Adams could have attended Army Council meetings to speak about political happenings without being a “member” of said Council. This could even have been a tactic to ensure he wasn’t arrested and to give him plausible deniability (which it didn’t turn out to give).

    If the Brits could have charged Adams with membership of IRA then they would have. It’s amazing that the “dogs on the street” know that Adams was in the IRA yet there’s still no proof that stands up to any scrutiny.

    look at hoe many hutches and kinehans are wandering round, burden of proof is pretty high , and when your business model involves a balaclava all the time its easier to hide.


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    #161
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,026 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Needs Must wrote: »
    So your neighbour is an alcoholic and Gerry is a terrorist, is that your point?




    I think its his neigbour - gerry - who has the drink problem, and he gets very terroristish with a few scoops in him.


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    #162
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Gerry is wandering around and realisng it was all a waste of time and effort. Should have stuck to the bar work


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    #163
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    maccored wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Questions are bullying now? How undemocratic of me to ask.

    ah stop feeling sorry for yourself. telling people they're embarrassing themselves because the have a different opinion is a weak attempt at bullying. you weren't answering any questions when you said that

    I didn’t say you were embarrassing yourself because I disagree with you. I said you were embarrassing yourself because the point you were trying to make was embarrassing. That to believe Gerry Adams was in the IRA is somehow undemocratic. That is embarrassing.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #164
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I didn’t say you were embarrassing yourself because I disagree with you. I said you were embarrassing yourself because the point you were trying to make was embarrassing. That to believe Gerry Adams was in the IRA is somehow undemocratic. That is embarrassing.

    You've convinced me. I now say he wasn't.


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    #165
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I didn’t say you were embarrassing yourself because I disagree with you. I said you were embarrassing yourself because the point you were trying to make was embarrassing. That to believe Gerry Adams was in the IRA is somehow undemocratic. That is embarrassing.

    You've convinced me. I now say he wasn't.

    What convinced you?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #166
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    What convinced you?

    Your waffle on it. It wasn't enough most thought he was or thought it likely, we have to put up with the blarney too.
    He wasn't as far as the law is concerned or they would have arrested him for it. We can surmise and tell anecdotes all day long I suppose.


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    #167
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    What convinced you?

    Your waffle on it. It wasn't enough most thought he was or thought it likely, we have to put up with the blarney too.
    He wasn't as far as the law is concerned or they would have arrested him for it. We can surmise and tell anecdotes all day long I suppose.

    You are easily convinced and very naive. In my opinion.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #168
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    You are easily convinced and very naive. In my opinion.

    I think he was, but if I were under oath I'd have to say no. Why don't you start a Sinn Fein or IRA ranty type thread? Save us all a lot of time.


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    #169
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,026 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I think he was, but if I were under oath I'd have to say no. Why don't you start a Sinn Fein or IRA ranty type thread? Save us all a lot of time.


    Don't mind him, there's Sumo on.
    https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/tv/sumo/tournament/201909/live_4.html


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    #170
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,416 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Don't mind him, there's Sumo on.
    https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/tv/sumo/tournament/201909/live_4.html

    Those Sumo lads are incredibly healthy, seems all the training leaves the fat on the outside, internally they are professional athletes.


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    #171
    MonkieSocks
    Registered Users Posts: 8,294 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    Danzy wrote: »
    Those Sumo lads are incredibly healthy, seems all the training leaves the fat on the outside, internally they are professional athletes.

    And Sumo wrestlers shave their legs, So you can tell them apart from feminists.

    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



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    #172
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,416 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    MonkieSocks wrote: »
    And Sumo wrestlers shave their legs, So you can tell them apart from feminists.

    Quite a physical encounter.


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    #173
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,628 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Of course I don't believe him when he says he was never in the IRA. I mean all the ex IRA members can't all be wrong and why of all the republican prisoners held was Gerry Adams requested by the IRA leadership to attend talks about a ceasefire in 1972 ? Are we meant to believe he was the lad making the tea ?


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    #174
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    His membership or otherwise of the IRA is now an academic question. It seems implausible that he wasn't. His moving the republican movement from violence to peaceful means of pursuing their objective is admirable and helped bring about the peace in Northern Ireland. His past is understandably of interest to historians. We will probably never know the true extent of his involvement with the IRA. The peace in N.I. will probably serve as his legacy. The IRA's campaign was ultimately futile and and unnecessary.


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    #175
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The last step for the true believers of any cult or religion is to have them believe clearly ridiculous things without question. That's what's at play here. Gerry is more likely to be the second coming of Christ than not having been in the IRA.


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    #176
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,201 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    This reminds me of those catholic bishops and their "mental reservations" when they were dealing with allegations of child abuse.

    There’s loads of proof of child abuse by Catholic clergy. Where’s the proof that Adams was on the Army Council?


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    #177
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,201 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The last step for the true believers of any cult or religion is to have them believe clearly ridiculous things without question. That's what's at play here. Gerry is more likely to be the second coming of Christ than not having been in the IRA.

    Eh... you’re the one believing something without requiring the proof. “Blind faith” I think is the religious term.

    I’m asking, where is the proof that Adams was in the Army Council?


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    #178
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,201 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    holyhead wrote: »
    His membership or otherwise of the IRA is now an academic question. It seems implausible that he wasn't. His moving the republican movement from violence to peaceful means of pursuing their objective is admirable and helped bring about the peace in Northern Ireland. His past is understandably of interest to historians. We will probably never know the true extent of his involvement with the IRA. The peace in N.I. will probably serve as his legacy. The IRA's campaign was ultimately futile and and unnecessary.

    The IRA campaign regrettably was incredibly necessary.

    Never ceases to amaze me how people condemn Republican violence without questioning why it happened in the first place.

    The IRA were formed in reaction to violence from the State against its own subjects. The free pass that the Brits get for this, and the politicians at the time and since is also astounding. Our country did f*€& all to stop the gerrymandering, murdering, discrimination, etc... that was rife for so long, we let the attackers away with it but whines like fu€& when the croppies have the temerity to fight back.

    Irish politicians say back and did nothing, shame on them for that.


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    #179
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    holyhead wrote: »
    His membership or otherwise of the IRA is now an academic question. It seems implausible that he wasn't. His moving the republican movement from violence to peaceful means of pursuing their objective is admirable and helped bring about the peace in Northern Ireland. His past is understandably of interest to historians. We will probably never know the true extent of his involvement with the IRA. The peace in N.I. will probably serve as his legacy. The IRA's campaign was ultimately futile and and unnecessary.

    The IRA campaign regrettably was incredibly necessary.

    Never ceases to amaze me how people condemn Republican violence without questioning why it happened in the first place.

    The IRA were formed in reaction to violence from the State against its own subjects. The free pass that the Brits get for this, and the politicians at the time and since is also astounding. Our country did f*€& all to stop the gerrymandering, murdering, discrimination, etc... that was rife for so long, we let the attackers away with it but whines like fu€& when the cripples have the temerity to fight back.

    Irish politicians say back and did nothing, shame on them for that.

    Republican violence defending communities under attack is one thing. The stated aim of Republican violence to end the British presence in the 6 counties was a dismal failure.

    Just because some black taxis with tricolours drove around after the IRA cessation of violence carrying people shouting “we won the war” does not make it a fact. The cessation of the campaign of violence was an acknowledgement of its failure and futility. Something that Adams and Mc Guinness had realized by the mid 70’s.

    What could “Irish” politicians, and by Irish I presume you mean free state politicians have done? What would you have liked them to do?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #180
    niallers1
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭niallers1


    The IRA were nothing but a mens shed group up until Bloody Sunday and the BallyMurphy massacres when the British sent in combat troops to kill Irish people.
    After the Paras started murdering people you had people queuing up to join the IRA. The British State created the problem.

    When people don't have a political way to resolve human and civil rights abuses then they are left with few alternatives.
    In the north, even when they marched peacefully they were shot at.
    The place was even gerrymandered so a minority would rule over the majority. Sometimes even burned out of their houses.
    It was a horrible Apartheid cesspit for Irish people living in the north at that time.


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    #181
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,201 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Republican violence defending communities under attack is one thing. The stated aim of Republican violence to end the British presence in the 6 counties was a dismal failure.

    Just because some black taxis with tricolours drove around after the IRA cessation of violence carrying people shouting “we won the war” does not make it a fact. The cessation of the campaign of violence was an acknowledgement of its failure and futility. Something that Adams and Mc Guinness had realized by the mid 70’s.

    What could “Irish” politicians, and by Irish I presume you mean free state politicians have done? What would you have liked them to do?

    There’s no way the IRA won, I don’t think they lost either. They were a necessity to protect their communities as democracy and politicians absolutely failed them.

    The Irish state should have taken a hard line against the British State. Look at how strong a stance the Govt are taking against the Backstop? The effort, intelligence and application going into it is fantastic, to date FG are playing a blinder in relation to it.

    However, STILL when it comes to nationalist communities and the problems there, or getting the Assembly up and running them they’re useless... and intentionally so due to their fear of SF electoral success. Everything they do to put SF down they do... now that might not be a problem to some but the collateral damage to nationalists in the 06 is unforgivable. FG constantly reach out to the unionist community (see Jeffrey Donaldson at FG are fheis) yet ignore or sideline the nationalist community.


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