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Netanyahu promises to annex Jordan Valley

  • 10-09-2019 5:08pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭


    The BBC is reporting that Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu is promising to annex the Jordan valley in the occupied West Bank if returned to power in the forthcoming Israeli general election.

    If my knowledge and geography is correct, this would mean that Israel would completely surround the entire West Bank area, installing a buffer zone between West Bank/Palestine and the Jordan river. It would then be a matter of time before Israel picked off the rest of the territory controlled but not strictly ruled by them.

    Suppose he's being consistent. He said before the last general election that he would no longer support a "two-state solution" to the Israel-Palestine problem.

    Ethnic cleansing would seem to be his preferred option. Squeeze the Palestinians into emigration by making their lives unbearable.

    <snip - Snickers Man does not approve of Netanyahu in the strongest but politest terms>


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    I don't think anyone can really doubt my credibility when it comes to defending Israel on these forums. Yet even I'm taken aback by this decision, if for no other reason than it's sheer short sightedness. Fundamentally, Israel needs to be able to establish a modus vivendi with its neighbouring states, and essential to that is the ability to reconcile the Palestinian population (inside and outside Israel proper) with the current situation.

    At the most basic level, this means the Palestinians having themselves a state to be able to conduct their lives unmolested by foreign soldiers and under their own rule. I'm not wedded to the idea that such a state must be entirely congruent with 67 borders or some other arbitrary historical measure, but they need enough to be able to live on, not such a grand request I might have thought.

    Anyway, I guess we're back to seeing how things develop, not that I'm terribly hopeful about a positive outcome.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    At this stage troops should be moved in to stop the Israelis. It's the slow erasion of a people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    At this stage troops should be moved in to stop the Israelis. It's the slow erasion of a people.

    What or who's troops should be deployed ,

    Considering even the arab state's have had little or nothing to say about it suggests it's no big deal as it stands


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Gatling wrote: »
    What or who's troops should be deployed ,

    Considering even the arab state's have had little or nothing to say about it suggests it's no big deal as it stands




    Doesn't read that way to me. You may have missed the following


    "The Arab League regards these statements as undermining the chances of any progress in the peace process and will torpedo all its foundations."


    In a series of separate statements, Qatar criticised "Israel's continued contempt of international law"; Turkey slammed the annexation pledge as "racist"; Jordan called Netanyahu's plan a "serious escalation"; and Saudi Arabia called for an emergency meeting of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC).
    The United Nations, meanwhile, warned that Netanyahu's plan would have "no international legal effect".
    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/09/netanyahu-annexation-pledge-denounced-dangerous-racist-190911080929932.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Gatling wrote: »
    What or who's troops should be deployed ,

    Considering even the arab state's have had little or nothing to say about it suggests it's no big deal as it stands

    The same we would to any area were tyrants are engaging in illegal and immoral activity. Regardless, it's moving beyond the stage were intervention is needed IMO.

    Not so.
    Also, if it looks like Israeli behavior will infringe on their interests, you'll see a change more swiftly, but the Israeli's will be careful not to harass the relationship between the US and Arab nations. Basically once the right people are making money they may turn a blind eye to the slow eradication and land theft in the interim.
    Netenyahu is willing to forgo any chance of peace to court the right wing voters. Despicable man.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    I don't think anyone can really doubt my credibility when it comes to defending Israel on these forums. Yet even I'm taken aback by this decision, if for no other reason than it's sheer short sightedness. Fundamentally, Israel needs to be able to establish a modus vivendi with its neighbouring states, and essential to that is the ability to reconcile the Palestinian population (inside and outside Israel proper) with the current situation.

    At the most basic level, this means the Palestinians having themselves a state to be able to conduct their lives unmolested by foreign soldiers and under their own rule. I'm not wedded to the idea that such a state must be entirely congruent with 67 borders or some other arbitrary historical measure, but they need enough to be able to live on, not such a grand request I might have thought.

    Anyway, I guess we're back to seeing how things develop, not that I'm terribly hopeful about a positive outcome.


    One of the most probable scenarios proffered over the years is that areas unannexed by Israel will become pockets of "self governing" palestinians - geographically seperate from each other, dispersed amongst the annexed tracts. Effectively these will be like the old bantustans in apartheid south africa, a source of cheap labour for the annexed areas, and, as non citizens, not threatening the Israeli majority.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Odhinn wrote: »
    One of the most probable scenarios proffered over the years is that areas unannexed by Israel will become pockets of "self governing" palestinians - geographically seperate from each other, dispersed amongst the annexed tracts. Effectively these will be like the old bantustans in apartheid south africa, a source of cheap labour for the annexed areas, and, as non citizens, not threatening the Israeli majority.

    To be honest I suspect a more likely scenario is the continuation of the long decline in Palestinian prospects both politically as well as economically and (arguably) demographically. If the present trends continue Palestine becomes less and less liveable, there is more pressure to emigrate, more violent flare ups with retaliation and ultimately, more settlements. Any Bantustan like situation is more than likely going to be a transitory phase, but a particularly ugly one at that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    Ethnic cleansing
    Expected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    I don't think anyone can really doubt my credibility when it comes to defending Israel on these forums. Yet even I'm taken aback by this decision, if for no other reason than it's sheer short sightedness. Fundamentally, Israel needs to be able to establish a modus vivendi with its neighbouring states, and essential to that is the ability to reconcile the Palestinian population (inside and outside Israel proper) with the current situation.

    At the most basic level, this means the Palestinians having themselves a state to be able to conduct their lives unmolested by foreign soldiers and under their own rule. I'm not wedded to the idea that such a state must be entirely congruent with 67 borders or some other arbitrary historical measure, but they need enough to be able to live on, not such a grand request I might have thought.

    Anyway, I guess we're back to seeing how things develop, not that I'm terribly hopeful about a positive outcome.
    Who asked you to defend Israel? Anyway, I as an Israeli don't need it. Thanks.
    Now, Israel is an independent state and it knows what it needs or doesn't need to do according to its national and security interests. That's why the Jewish state was created. Thanks for advise.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    hamsin wrote: »
    Who asked you to defend Israel? Anyway, I as an Israeli don't need it. Thanks.
    Now, Israel is an independent state and it knows what it needs or doesn't need to do according to its national and security interests. That's why the Jewish state was created. Thanks for advise.

    The two state solution is dead. The future will be an ever growing Palestinian population within Israel. How are you going to deal with that?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    hamsin wrote: »
    That's why the Jewish state was created. Thanks for advise.

    For the sake of polite discourse and the avoidance of the discussion descending into accusations of anti-Semitism, please don't invoke the Jewishness of the Israeli state as a justification.

    Nethanyahu's aims in the annexation of the Jordan valley are abhorrent and affront to the norms of international relations that Democracies proclaim to uphold.

    It would be wrong Ireland did it, it would be wrong if Canada did it and it is certainly wrong if Israel do it.

    Its a rise of the right amongst a nation that has traditionally been quite socially progressive and that it is sabre rattling by the most militaristic nation in the M.E is a worry.

    I think we are far beyond the days of an Arab League declaring war on Israel, but if one was to try an provoke a pan-Arab reaction?
    How would you think Israel might be most successful at that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    The two state solution is dead.
    I hope.
    The future will be an ever growing Palestinian population within Israel. How are you going to deal with that?
    1. There is no "Palestinian population" in Israel. There are Israeli Arabs in Israel.
    2. Jews and Arabs have the same birth rate in Israel. Plus constant Jewish immigration.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Odhinn wrote: »
    One of the most probable scenarios proffered over the years is that areas unannexed by Israel will become pockets of "self governing" palestinians - geographically seperate from each other, dispersed amongst the annexed tracts. Effectively these will be like the old bantustans in apartheid south africa, a source of cheap labour for the annexed areas, and, as non citizens, not threatening the Israeli majority.

    That’s seems to be the aim. That said this could be just election gimmcrackery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭bunderoon


    hamsin wrote: »
    I hope.

    1. There is no "Palestinian population" in Israel. There are Israeli Arabs in Israel.
    2. Jews and Arabs have the same birth rate in Israel. Plus constant Jewish immigration.

    Is there an Israeli (Arab / Jewish) population in Palestine?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,715 ✭✭✭golfball37


    Putin has criticised this move. That may invite Trump to do the same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    hamsin wrote: »
    Who asked you to defend Israel? Anyway, I as an Israeli don't need it. Thanks.
    Now, Israel is an independent state and it knows what it needs or doesn't need to do according to its national and security interests. That's why the Jewish state was created. Thanks for advise.
    [W]ithout consideration of "traditions" and prejudices, it [Germany] must find the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted living space to new land and soil, and hence also free it from the danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others as a slave nation.
    — Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf 1

    Nobody buys the security lie. That excuse can be used for continued land theft and killing. Where's the safe point? It's self importance and putting the Israeli state, (as yet to be defined) above all others. If a state could be racist, Israel would be it.
    hamsin wrote: »
    I hope.

    1. There is no "Palestinian population" in Israel. There are Israeli Arabs in Israel.
    2. Jews and Arabs have the same birth rate in Israel. Plus constant Jewish immigration.

    Denying their existence. Do you not see the hypocrisy? Israel under Netenyahu is a criminal state.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    Nobody buys the security lie. That excuse can be used for continued land theft and killing. Where's the safe point? It's self importance and putting the Israeli state, (as yet to be defined) above all others. If a state could be racist, Israel would be it.



    Denying their existence. Do you not see the hypocrisy? Israel under Netenyahu is a criminal state.
    I don't discuss with antisemitic idiots.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    hamsin wrote: »
    I don't discuss with antisemitic idiots.

    You shouldn't. Fair play.
    Now back to Israel...you know Israel isn't the people of the Jewish faith right? Don't insult Jewish people by linking them to Israeli policy and actions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    hamsin wrote: »
    I hope.

    1. There is no "Palestinian population" in Israel. There are Israeli Arabs in Israel.
    .......


    There are Palestinian-Israeli arabs in Israel, that make up about 20% of the population overall (afaik).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭rapul


    hamsin wrote: »
    I don't discuss with antisemitic idiots.

    You have no credibility now, pathetic post


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  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    Odhinn wrote: »
    There are Palestinian-Israeli arabs in Israel, that make up about 20% of the population overall (afaik).
    Your opinion is irrelevant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭bunderoon


    hamsin wrote: »
    Your opinion is irrelevant.


    It's AS relevant as yours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    hamsin wrote: »
    Your opinion is irrelevant.




    That's not my opinion, it's a factual observation based on existing data
    Ethnic Groups

    Jewish 74.4% (of which Israel-born 76.9%, Europe/America/Oceania-born 15.9%, Africa-born 4.6%, Asia-born 2.6%), Arab 20.9%, other 4.7% (2018 est.)
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    rapul wrote: »
    You have no credibility now, pathetic post
    I don't care.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey




  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    Odhinn wrote: »
    That's not my opinion, it's a factual observation based on existing data

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html

    "Arab", not "Palestinian".
    So, what did you prove? Stupid post.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    hamsin wrote: »
    "Arab", not "Palestinian".
    So, what did you prove? Stupid post.




    The vast majority of that 20% are Palestinian Arabs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    Odhinn wrote: »
    The vast majority of that 20% are Palestinian Arabs.
    Now go to my initial reply.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    hamsin wrote: »
    Now go to my initial reply.




    The fact is that 20% of the Israeli population is composed of Palestinian Arabs.




    Back to the topic - What's your opinion on the planned annexation?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    Odhinn wrote: »
    The fact
    And now I stop discussion with you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    Bibi is a bit like the DUP, his hatred for the Palestinians and his myopic views will do more damage to Israel in the long run than the PLO or Hamas. could ever hope to. It is interesting watching him implode.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    hamsin wrote: »
    And now I stop discussion with you.




    Again - What's your opinion on the planned annexation?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    The stealing of Palestinian land is nothing new, the Israelis will never stop their robbery until the world takes action against them. They are so messed up that they still see themselves as victims despite the carnage, murder and mayhem they have created in the region.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    The stealing of Palestinian land is nothing new, the Israelis will never stop their robbery until the world takes action against them. They are so messed up that they still see themselves as victims despite the carnage, murder and mayhem they have created in the region.




    Actually they only need to keep on the good side of the US. The current government in washington has basically left them free to do what they will, so Netanyahu is quite right in saying this is a great opportunity to grab more land.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    his myopic views will do more damage to Israel
    It's not your country, not your people, it's not your buisness.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,962 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    hamsin wrote: »
    It's not your country, not your people, it's not your buisness.

    It's not exactly your country either mate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Israel has made one mistake in its treatment of "foreigners" in it's land.

    It's forgotten that they were once foreigners and slaves as well and have forgotten to how they were told to treat them.

    You just have to read the law and the prophets to see Israel is wrong in its treatment of the Arabs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    hamsin wrote: »
    It's not your country, not your people, it's not your buisness.


    Thanks for that , I understand that you may have issues . I should also remind you that Palestine is not your country either and you are not welcome there but deep down you already know that.



    In the deepest reassess of your soul somewhere you understand that killing men, women and children and stealing their land is not the basis for a happy and fruitful life. I can see from your posts that the situation has had a bad effect on you but if you accept that you can be wrong all is not lost for you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    It's not exactly your country either mate.
    It's exactly my country and it's exactly not your business.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    hamsin wrote: »
    It's exactly my country and it's exactly not your business.




    Then you might give us your opinion of the proposed annexation?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    hamsin wrote: »
    It's exactly my country and it's exactly not your business.


    What part of Palestine are you from?


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Then you might give us your opinion of the proposed annexation?
    If you "know facts" (and you know nothing), you don't need my opinion.
    Do you understand my simple English? I stopped useless discussion with you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    hamsin wrote: »
    If you "know facts" (and you know nothing), you don't need my opinion.
    Do you understand my simple English? I stopped useless discussion with you.




    Why can't you comment on the subject of the thread?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    hamsin wrote: »
    That's why the Jewish state was created. Thanks for advise.
    banie01 wrote: »
    For the sake of polite discourse and the avoidance of the discussion descending into accusations of anti-Semitism, please don't invoke the Jewishness of the Israeli state as a justification.

    hamsin wrote: »
    I don't discuss with antisemitic idiots.

    It didn't take you long to revert to the anti Semite card did it?

    The illegal actions of Israel are not actions of the Jewish people.
    Why do you persist upon making disagreeing with Israeli policy a matter of Religion?

    Is the congruence of Nationalism, Zionism and religion the only defence left to Israeli right wingers?
    Where calling a nation state out for its evident wrongs, needs to be portrayed as being anti-Semitism?
    Really?
    You do know that BiBi's or indeed any Israeli persons religion isn't the issue here?

    The issue is National aggression and posturing, the marginalisation of a whole segment of a nations society based on their being not "Palestinian" but Israeli Arab?
    That outright sectarianism is a pillar of what Israel calls its domestic policy, but that others would reasonably call international policy?

    But its Israel that's the victim?
    How does that work?
    We have a few politicians to the North of us who would love to learn that trick.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    hamsin wrote: »
    Who asked you to defend Israel? Anyway, I as an Israeli don't need it. Thanks.
    Now, Israel is an independent state and it knows what it needs or doesn't need to do according to its national and security interests. That's why the Jewish state was created. Thanks for advise.

    I asked myself, and I don't particularly care if others request my intervention or not on this forum, unless that person has a bolded username or is quoting the rules.

    Now, as to why I ended up defending Israel, well simply put I found myself quite irritated with a lot of pretty obvious hypocrisy that surrounded the topic of Israel. I would see people losing their minds in rage whenever there was a violent outburst involving the Israelis and have little to say when yet another Syrian massacre was announced. I was perturbed to hear people list UN GA Resolutions as some kind of final word on the issue, and have nothing to say when I noted the UNHCR had passed more resolutions condemning Israel than the rest of the world combined. I also found myself darkly amused when people tried to stir up the urgency of Israel's 'colonization' of the Palestinians, at the same time as about a million Rohingya ended up extirpated from Myanmar with hardly a word of protest. I see what I see and I observe accordingly. I observed the follow of some those standards then as I observe some of the follies of Israeli foreign policy now - there is no mutual exclusiveness between the two.

    As for what will become of Israel and my 'advice' - firstly I don't think anyone here is deluded enough to imagine the Israeli government is consulting the Politics forum of boards when it comes to informing its policy choices. You might have observed quite a few discussions about foreign policy issues on this forum and I suspect they will continue whether they are invited or not. It may benefit you as I dare say it has benefit me, to observe these discussions not simply to reinforce your own views, but to try and challenge them as well. Listening to ones opponents has quite a bit of use, it helps you improve your own arguments and allows you to see which views one holds which cannot be sustained.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    hamsin wrote: »
    And now I stop discussion with you.

    Bulldoze his house!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    hamsin wrote: »
    It's not your country, not your people, it's not your buisness.

    Pot, kettle?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭rapul


    Pot, kettle?

    Yeah bang on, and we're anti semetic in his eyes for having an opinion


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭hamsin


    banie01 wrote: »
    Why do you persist upon making disagreeing with Israeli policy a matter of Religion?
    I even didn't mention religion. You are just another troll.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    hamsin wrote: »
    I even didn't mention religion. You are just another troll.




    Whats your assesment of Netanyahus plan to annex the areas in the Jordan valley?


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