Netanyahu promises to annex Jordan Valley

Snickers Man · 10-09-2019 5:08pm #1

The BBC is reporting that Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu is promising to annex the Jordan valley in the occupied West Bank if returned to power in the forthcoming Israeli general election.

If my knowledge and geography is correct, this would mean that Israel would completely surround the entire West Bank area, installing a buffer zone between West Bank/Palestine and the Jordan river. It would then be a matter of time before Israel picked off the rest of the territory controlled but not strictly ruled by them.

Suppose he's being consistent. He said before the last general election that he would no longer support a "two-state solution" to the Israel-Palestine problem.

Ethnic cleansing would seem to be his preferred option. Squeeze the Palestinians into emigration by making their lives unbearable.

<snip - Snickers Man does not approve of Netanyahu in the strongest but politest terms>

Irish Praetorian · 10-09-2019 10:19pm

I don't think anyone can really doubt my credibility when it comes to defending Israel on these forums. Yet even I'm taken aback by this decision, if for no other reason than it's sheer short sightedness. Fundamentally, Israel needs to be able to establish a modus vivendi with its neighbouring states, and essential to that is the ability to reconcile the Palestinian population (inside and outside Israel proper) with the current situation.

At the most basic level, this means the Palestinians having themselves a state to be able to conduct their lives unmolested by foreign soldiers and under their own rule. I'm not wedded to the idea that such a state must be entirely congruent with 67 borders or some other arbitrary historical measure, but they need enough to be able to live on, not such a grand request I might have thought.

Anyway, I guess we're back to seeing how things develop, not that I'm terribly hopeful about a positive outcome.

James Brown · 11-09-2019 2:39pm

At this stage troops should be moved in to stop the Israelis. It's the slow erasion of a people.

Gatling · 11-09-2019 2:45pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

At this stage troops should be moved in to stop the Israelis. It's the slow erasion of a people.

What or who's troops should be deployed ,

Considering even the arab state's have had little or nothing to say about it suggests it's no big deal as it stands

Odhinn · 11-09-2019 3:56pm

Gatling wrote: »

What or who's troops should be deployed ,

Considering even the arab state's have had little or nothing to say about it suggests it's no big deal as it stands

Doesn't read that way to me. You may have missed the following

"The Arab League regards these statements as undermining the chances of any progress in the peace process and will torpedo all its foundations."

In a series of separate statements, Qatar criticised "Israel's continued contempt of international law"; Turkey slammed the annexation pledge as "racist"; Jordan called Netanyahu's plan a "serious escalation"; and Saudi Arabia called for an emergency meeting of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC).
The United Nations, meanwhile, warned that Netanyahu's plan would have "no international legal effect".

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/09/netanyahu-annexation-pledge-denounced-dangerous-racist-190911080929932.html

James Brown · 11-09-2019 5:08pm

Gatling wrote: »

What or who's troops should be deployed ,

Considering even the arab state's have had little or nothing to say about it suggests it's no big deal as it stands

The same we would to any area were tyrants are engaging in illegal and immoral activity. Regardless, it's moving beyond the stage were intervention is needed IMO.

Not so.
Also, if it looks like Israeli behavior will infringe on their interests, you'll see a change more swiftly, but the Israeli's will be careful not to harass the relationship between the US and Arab nations. Basically once the right people are making money they may turn a blind eye to the slow eradication and land theft in the interim.
Netenyahu is willing to forgo any chance of peace to court the right wing voters. Despicable man.

Odhinn · 11-09-2019 7:30pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I don't think anyone can really doubt my credibility when it comes to defending Israel on these forums. Yet even I'm taken aback by this decision, if for no other reason than it's sheer short sightedness. Fundamentally, Israel needs to be able to establish a modus vivendi with its neighbouring states, and essential to that is the ability to reconcile the Palestinian population (inside and outside Israel proper) with the current situation.

At the most basic level, this means the Palestinians having themselves a state to be able to conduct their lives unmolested by foreign soldiers and under their own rule. I'm not wedded to the idea that such a state must be entirely congruent with 67 borders or some other arbitrary historical measure, but they need enough to be able to live on, not such a grand request I might have thought.

Anyway, I guess we're back to seeing how things develop, not that I'm terribly hopeful about a positive outcome.

One of the most probable scenarios proffered over the years is that areas unannexed by Israel will become pockets of "self governing" palestinians - geographically seperate from each other, dispersed amongst the annexed tracts. Effectively these will be like the old bantustans in apartheid south africa, a source of cheap labour for the annexed areas, and, as non citizens, not threatening the Israeli majority.

Irish Praetorian · 11-09-2019 9:13pm

Odhinn wrote: »

One of the most probable scenarios proffered over the years is that areas unannexed by Israel will become pockets of "self governing" palestinians - geographically seperate from each other, dispersed amongst the annexed tracts. Effectively these will be like the old bantustans in apartheid south africa, a source of cheap labour for the annexed areas, and, as non citizens, not threatening the Israeli majority.

To be honest I suspect a more likely scenario is the continuation of the long decline in Palestinian prospects both politically as well as economically and (arguably) demographically. If the present trends continue Palestine becomes less and less liveable, there is more pressure to emigrate, more violent flare ups with retaliation and ultimately, more settlements. Any Bantustan like situation is more than likely going to be a transitory phase, but a particularly ugly one at that.

hamsin · 12-09-2019 8:15am

Snickers Man wrote: »

Ethnic cleansing

Expected.

hamsin · 12-09-2019 8:44am

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I don't think anyone can really doubt my credibility when it comes to defending Israel on these forums. Yet even I'm taken aback by this decision, if for no other reason than it's sheer short sightedness. Fundamentally, Israel needs to be able to establish a modus vivendi with its neighbouring states, and essential to that is the ability to reconcile the Palestinian population (inside and outside Israel proper) with the current situation.

At the most basic level, this means the Palestinians having themselves a state to be able to conduct their lives unmolested by foreign soldiers and under their own rule. I'm not wedded to the idea that such a state must be entirely congruent with 67 borders or some other arbitrary historical measure, but they need enough to be able to live on, not such a grand request I might have thought.

Anyway, I guess we're back to seeing how things develop, not that I'm terribly hopeful about a positive outcome.

Who asked you to defend Israel? Anyway, I as an Israeli don't need it. Thanks.
Now, Israel is an independent state and it knows what it needs or doesn't need to do according to its national and security interests. That's why the Jewish state was created. Thanks for advise.

[Deleted User] · 12-09-2019 8:48am

hamsin wrote: »

Who asked you to defend Israel? Anyway, I as an Israeli don't need it. Thanks.
Now, Israel is an independent state and it knows what it needs or doesn't need to do according to its national and security interests. That's why the Jewish state was created. Thanks for advise.

The two state solution is dead. The future will be an ever growing Palestinian population within Israel. How are you going to deal with that?

banie01 · 12-09-2019 8:58am

hamsin wrote: »

That's why the Jewish state was created. Thanks for advise.

For the sake of polite discourse and the avoidance of the discussion descending into accusations of anti-Semitism, please don't invoke the Jewishness of the Israeli state as a justification.

Nethanyahu's aims in the annexation of the Jordan valley are abhorrent and affront to the norms of international relations that Democracies proclaim to uphold.

It would be wrong Ireland did it, it would be wrong if Canada did it and it is certainly wrong if Israel do it.

Its a rise of the right amongst a nation that has traditionally been quite socially progressive and that it is sabre rattling by the most militaristic nation in the M.E is a worry.

I think we are far beyond the days of an Arab League declaring war on Israel, but if one was to try an provoke a pan-Arab reaction?
How would you think Israel might be most successful at that?

hamsin · 12-09-2019 10:31am

Deleted User wrote: »

The two state solution is dead.

I hope.

The future will be an ever growing Palestinian population within Israel. How are you going to deal with that?

1. There is no "Palestinian population" in Israel. There are Israeli Arabs in Israel.
2. Jews and Arabs have the same birth rate in Israel. Plus constant Jewish immigration.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 12-09-2019 12:46pm

Odhinn wrote: »

One of the most probable scenarios proffered over the years is that areas unannexed by Israel will become pockets of "self governing" palestinians - geographically seperate from each other, dispersed amongst the annexed tracts. Effectively these will be like the old bantustans in apartheid south africa, a source of cheap labour for the annexed areas, and, as non citizens, not threatening the Israeli majority.

That’s seems to be the aim. That said this could be just election gimmcrackery.

bunderoon · 12-09-2019 12:53pm

hamsin wrote: »

I hope.

1. There is no "Palestinian population" in Israel. There are Israeli Arabs in Israel.
2. Jews and Arabs have the same birth rate in Israel. Plus constant Jewish immigration.

Is there an Israeli (Arab / Jewish) population in Palestine?

golfball37 · 12-09-2019 12:56pm

Putin has criticised this move. That may invite Trump to do the same.

James Brown · 12-09-2019 2:07pm

hamsin wrote: »

Who asked you to defend Israel? Anyway, I as an Israeli don't need it. Thanks.
Now, Israel is an independent state and it knows what it needs or doesn't need to do according to its national and security interests. That's why the Jewish state was created. Thanks for advise.

[W]ithout consideration of "traditions" and prejudices, it [Germany] must find the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted living space to new land and soil, and hence also free it from the danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others as a slave nation.
— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf 1

Nobody buys the security lie. That excuse can be used for continued land theft and killing. Where's the safe point? It's self importance and putting the Israeli state, (as yet to be defined) above all others. If a state could be racist, Israel would be it.

hamsin wrote: »

I hope.

1. There is no "Palestinian population" in Israel. There are Israeli Arabs in Israel.
2. Jews and Arabs have the same birth rate in Israel. Plus constant Jewish immigration.

Denying their existence. Do you not see the hypocrisy? Israel under Netenyahu is a criminal state.

hamsin · 12-09-2019 3:10pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Nobody buys the security lie. That excuse can be used for continued land theft and killing. Where's the safe point? It's self importance and putting the Israeli state, (as yet to be defined) above all others. If a state could be racist, Israel would be it.

Denying their existence. Do you not see the hypocrisy? Israel under Netenyahu is a criminal state.

I don't discuss with antisemitic idiots.

James Brown · 12-09-2019 3:31pm

hamsin wrote: »

I don't discuss with antisemitic idiots.

You shouldn't. Fair play.
Now back to Israel...you know Israel isn't the people of the Jewish faith right? Don't insult Jewish people by linking them to Israeli policy and actions.

Odhinn · 12-09-2019 3:44pm

hamsin wrote: »

I hope.

1. There is no "Palestinian population" in Israel. There are Israeli Arabs in Israel.
.......

There are Palestinian-Israeli arabs in Israel, that make up about 20% of the population overall (afaik).

rapul · 12-09-2019 5:14pm

hamsin wrote: »

I don't discuss with antisemitic idiots.

You have no credibility now, pathetic post

hamsin · 12-09-2019 5:15pm

Odhinn wrote: »

There are Palestinian-Israeli arabs in Israel, that make up about 20% of the population overall (afaik).

Your opinion is irrelevant.

bunderoon · 12-09-2019 5:17pm

hamsin wrote: »

Your opinion is irrelevant.

It's AS relevant as yours.

Odhinn · 12-09-2019 5:25pm

hamsin wrote: »

Your opinion is irrelevant.

That's not my opinion, it's a factual observation based on existing data

Ethnic Groups

Jewish 74.4% (of which Israel-born 76.9%, Europe/America/Oceania-born 15.9%, Africa-born 4.6%, Asia-born 2.6%), Arab 20.9%, other 4.7% (2018 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html

hamsin · 12-09-2019 5:31pm

rapul wrote: »

You have no credibility now, pathetic post

I don't care.

cameramonkey · 12-09-2019 5:35pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/12/israel-planted-spying-devices-near-white-house-says-report

Israel has been caught spying on the White house. Nice.

hamsin · 12-09-2019 5:37pm

Odhinn wrote: »

That's not my opinion, it's a factual observation based on existing data

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html

"Arab", not "Palestinian".
So, what did you prove? Stupid post.

Odhinn · 12-09-2019 5:42pm

hamsin wrote: »

"Arab", not "Palestinian".
So, what did you prove? Stupid post.

The vast majority of that 20% are Palestinian Arabs.

hamsin · 12-09-2019 5:50pm

Odhinn wrote: »

The vast majority of that 20% are Palestinian Arabs.

Now go to my initial reply.

Odhinn · 12-09-2019 5:55pm

hamsin wrote: »

Now go to my initial reply.

The fact is that 20% of the Israeli population is composed of Palestinian Arabs.

Back to the topic - What's your opinion on the planned annexation?

hamsin · 12-09-2019 6:04pm

Odhinn wrote: »

The fact

And now I stop discussion with you.

Netanyahu promises to annex Jordan Valley

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